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Misconceptions about Protestants

Meepy

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Apparently you're blissfully unaware that persecution is not only a thing of the past, but a Prophesied part of our future. This is an ominous sign of how un-prepared your RCC really is ...

persecution? and apparently you are blissfully unaware of Church history and the martyrdom of the saints. Have you even taken a look at how many Catholic martyrs there are? I suggest you read St. Ignatius's martyrdom and the thousands of Catholics who died at the hands of Pagan rome. The tortures you read in Eusebius's Church history are beyond anything imaginable.

But then again, this is when you actually take the effort to read what actually happened in apostolic times.


And, may I ask who started the "30 years war"? May I ask what King Henry VIII did when he tore down all the Catholic monasteries who fed the poor and clothed the homeless and put all the money in his bank?




unprepared? Do unprepared Church's exist for over 2000 years?

persecution. Yes the protestants really helped feed everyone and clothed the poor when they torn down monasteries and started the "30 years war".

please. Millions died in the 30 years war. 3,000 died in the Inquisition. Most of which, were people who started riots and ruined Church property.
 
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Meepy

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Ok, where did that come from? Was it really responsive to anything I said? No?

It was you who said any underground Church had no legitimacy; so much for your knowledge of the history of your own Church!


you really think the Pagan Romans would have been able to kill so many christian martyrs during the apostolic era if it was so 'underground'?

Christ's Church is a visible palpable organization. A beacon of light. As Christ said, why would we light a beacon and then hide it away. The beacon is made to be seen by everyone.
 
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Meepy

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:confused: God answers the prayers of His people. Where did Sunlover express that God is some kind of ATM? In the scriptures we see God answering mans prayers all the time.


not if the prayers are against God's plan. He only answers what is truly good for us and what conforms to his plan. Otherwise you are just trying to test God. Like praying for a Lexus to fall out of the sky.
 
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sunlover1

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not if the prayers are against God's plan. He only answers what is truly good for us and what conforms to his plan. Otherwise you are just trying to test God. Like praying for a Lexus to fall out of the sky.
BInGo
And what did i post the passage in reference to?
Praying for help in understanding Scripture.
Is THAT in God's will??? YES
So why all the fighting me on it?
I was even accused of praying as a Pagan!
Seriously though, why DID you fight me on this?
Does it mess with your world view if you consider
that God really does help us to understand His
word if we call on Him? Of COURSE He does!
:D:clap:


Here's how it went down:
...They can always say that the Holy Spirit guides them towards the right interpretation. But if that was true we wouldn't have all these sects now, would we?

What if they were to pray thus:
"Dear Father and author of my faith, you said that if i asked for anything in faith, that I would have what I asked of you. I ask you to help me to understand this passage."

Originally Posted by Meepy
I think we need to be careful with trying to test God. Especially when someone doesn't have the proper understanding of prayer or the operation of the Holy Spirit. God won't grant things in prayer that are against his ordinances. Hence I don't think you properly understand the context of that verse..
Then I asked this:
And what did Jesus "really" mean?

And then... here we are.

After looking back over it all, i cant lie, it does make me sad.
Be true to yourself meepy,...
Tough enough out there with everyone else lying to ya.
:prayer:
 
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Meepy

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BInGo
And what did i post the passage in reference to?
Praying for help in understanding Scripture.
Is THAT in God's will??? YES
So why all the fighting me on it?
I was even accused of praying as a Pagan!
Seriously though, why DID you fight me on this?
Does it mess with your world view if you consider
that God really does help us to understand His
word if we call on Him? Of COURSE He does!
:D:clap:


Here's how it went down:





Then I asked this:


And then... here we are.

After looking back over it all, i cant lie, it does make me sad.
Be true to yourself meepy,...
Tough enough out there with everyone else lying to ya.
:prayer:



no I'm not fighting you, I think it comes more from the issue that people from all different christian groups say the same thing. Lotsa Mormons, for example, say they prayed to God to understand him and that He led them to the Mormon church. Or someone saying that God led them to the JWs. Hell, many homosexuals say they prayed to God and claim that He told them that they are ok with what they are doing.



Joseph Smith essentially did exactly that. He said he prayed to God which Church to go to, and said God answered his prayers by stating that none of the Churches were true, which led him to starting his own Church and that his interpretation of scripture was the right one.

I just don't think that is responsible, nor is the right context of what prayer means, cause anyone can say they prayed to God and that God told them to do this and that. Rather I think someone needs to have a proper disposition in order to truly pray and, God willing, have them answered.
 
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Catherineanne

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not if the prayers are against God's plan. He only answers what is truly good for us and what conforms to his plan. Otherwise you are just trying to test God. Like praying for a Lexus to fall out of the sky.

This is correct. :)

God always gives us what we ask for, if and only if, we ask for his will to be done.

Stopping at the first bit, without the second, is insufficient.
 
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Catherineanne

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I was even accused of praying as a Pagan!

A Christian using a pagan form of prayer is not a pagan. He or she is just a Christian using a pagan form of prayer.

I have explained the difference several times, but if you don't see the distinction between the two, then carry on. It doesn't make any difference to me.
 
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sunlover1

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no I'm not fighting you, I think it comes more from the issue that people from all different christian groups say the same thing. Lotsa Mormons, for example, say they prayed to God to understand him and that He led them to the Mormon church. Or someone saying that God led them to the JWs. Hell, many homosexuals say they prayed to God and claim that He told them that they are ok with what they are doing.
I understand this Meepy. And it's true, but it doesn't negate the fact that He does indeed
lead His people.
Similar is churches saying "they" have it right because "they" have Sacred tradition of the church or Apostolic succession... yet none of them are in agreement either.

Love wins Meepy.. and God does love His people... and He does answer our prayer
for understanding. The criminal "thinking" God is leading him, doesn't negate the truth
that God DOES lead His people.. Fact is, men are stupid .. and can make mistakes.. so what's the remedy?

Your church? EO church? OO church?
I am going to stick with the same answer.
God has as much a chance as the above
fellowships :p (kidding of course)

Joseph Smith essentially did exactly that. He said he prayed to God which Church to go to, and said God answered his prayers by stating that none of the Churches were true, which led him to starting his own Church and that his interpretation of scripture was the right one.
Millions of similar anecdotes I am sure...

I just don't think that is responsible, nor is the right context of what prayer means, cause anyone can say they prayed to God and that God told them to do this and that. Rather I think someone needs to have a proper disposition in order to truly pray and, God willing, have them answered.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with the last part wholeheartedly.
Jesus told them even that they prayed "amiss"
We too can "pray amiss"
That's why I try to pray HIS Will only.
And often that's my prayer
"LET YOUR WiLL be done"!!!
:clap:
 
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razeontherock

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no I'm not fighting you, I think it comes more from the issue that people from all different christian groups say the same thing. Lotsa Mormons, for example,

Rather I think someone needs to have a proper disposition in order to truly pray and, God willing, have them answered.

Yes, but why can't you recognize you're responding to a fellow believer that is in the habit of having her prayers answered?
 
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M

MamaZ

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not if the prayers are against God's plan. He only answers what is truly good for us and what conforms to his plan. Otherwise you are just trying to test God. Like praying for a Lexus to fall out of the sky.
Do you know Gods plans for you? Trying to test God? Now why on earth would we want a lexis to fall out of the sky? People can get hurt by that and even killed..
 
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M

MamaZ

Guest
Here http://www.christianforums.com/t7529424-58/:



= prayer treating God as ATM. It is not that it is wrong to pray, or even wrong to ask God for something, but it is insufficient to stop at what is described here; this is a pagan approach, rather than a Christian one, as I have explained already.

Certainly it is true that God answers prayer. But it is also the case that we must first seek the will of God in our lives, not just try to coerce him to do what we want.

Here is the distinction again:

Pagan spell - seeks to manipulate deity to do what we want; man in control.
Christian prayer, as taught to us by the Lord - seeks to find the will of God and then prays for that will to be done. We can petition as part of that prayer, but always with the caveat that God's will must be done, not ours; God in control.
Wow your concept of God is a bit strange to me. For I know that My Father loves me and if I ask for bread He will not give me a stone. Who said anything about coercing God? You have read much more into the post than what was actually said.
 
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Meepy

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Do you know Gods plans for you? Trying to test God? Now why on earth would we want a lexis to fall out of the sky? People can get hurt by that and even killed..


I'm sure you know what I mean. Say a person wants a Lexus LS series. Asks God to give him this car. And then says to God that Jesus said that all he has to do is ask for anything in his name and He will give it to him.

That would be testing God..

But whenever we see someone wanting to understand the scriptures, within the NT, we see someone defering to an apostolic authority. Like as I said before, when the Ethopian asked the apostle Phillip to help him understand Isaiah. The Ethopian asks


“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. - Acts 8:26-40





As well as with regards to Timothy and Paul. The apostle Paul expounded the scriptures to many people, many of which were Gentiles, who needed help.

And thus in scripture like the Ethiopian, we would ask "how can I understand this unless someone helps me". And thus we look to the apostles and the apostolic fathers, successors of the apostles, councils, and the apostolic deposit, and look at the interpretations and explanations these persons God has sent who can help us understand better. Sadly we do not have the living apostles to have direct recourse to, but they have left us an great apostolic deposit for us, both written and oral. So when we look at and read the apostolic deposit and tradition of the apostles and their successors laid down, we essentially "invite Phillip over" to help us understand. When I read something like the "Catena Aurea" with the scriptures I cannot help but feel the apostles behind me guiding and helping me along to understand like how Phillip did with the Ethiopian.

I think in a way, we have become arrogant. We think we can understand the bible by ourselves and are too prideful to ask others in a position of God given authority for help. This is one of the things that I believe is so harmful with sola scripture, because it is so closed off to everything else, that none of the tools needed to help someone understand scripture is ever used. And there is so much patristic information one can use. But sadly because of this idealistic doctrine they thrown away or ignore a enormous tomb of wealthy information simply because they refuse to admit that they need help to understand scripture and can never do it by themselves.

Nowhere in scripture do we see someone saying that they will just pray to God to understand the scriptures and receive understanding by direct revelation. In most cases when people are confused or within error, God sends a prophet, apostle, early father, bishop, deacon, or something related to help them. God usually gets personal, and in order to do that, he send persons who are inspired by the Holy Spirit so they can direct to them on a human level. Direct divine revelation and understanding is an extreme rarity within scripture and was only directed towards the highest of the patriarchs, like Moses on Mount Sinai, or Elijah and his altar before the Pagan one. These people had direct revelation from God in an extreme rare way. Out of all the millions of people during the times of the Deluge, God only directly talked to Noah. So I think we have to agree that direct divine revelation is a very rare thing.

I remember reading in Church history about this King who writes a letter to Jesus(I think the kings name was Abgarus). And this king said Jesus could come to his town and be protected and have refuge there. Jesus wrote him back saying that he could not come because he had to fullfill his mission. But that He would send someone to his town after his mission. Later someone from the 70 did come to his town. And he performed miracles and healings for his whole town, cured the king of his diseases and baptized his whole family(If I can remember it was one of the apostle's Thomas's disciples of the 70, Thaddus I believe his name was called)
 
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razeontherock

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I'm sure you know what I mean. Say a person wants a Lexus LS series. Asks God to give him this car. And then says to God that Jesus said that all he has to do is ask for anything in his name and He will give it to him.

That would be testing God..

Well since the title of the thread is what it is ...

let me point out that there ARE some Pr's that have done this sort of thing. I think the heydey of that has come and gone, because it's simply a false doctrine w/ no rewards. Maybe there are a few diehards still clinging to these ideas, but typically those displaying a Word of Faith icon get a hard time about it, even though they know better.

In this case, to reply to Sunlover in this manner is nothing short of a misconception about one particular non - RC. How many pages of this have we had now? At least we made it up to #75.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Well since the title of the thread is what it is ...

let me point out that there ARE some Pr's that have done this sort of thing. I think the heydey of that has come and gone, because it's simply a false doctrine w/ no rewards. Maybe there are a few diehards still clinging to these ideas, but typically those displaying a Word of Faith icon get a hard time about it, even though they know better.

In this case, to reply to Sunlover in this manner is nothing short of a misconception about one particular non - RC. How many pages of this have we had now? At least we made it up to #75.
:)
Tis never enuf :thumbsup:
 
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plmarquette

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Part of the problem is "symantics"...what words mean...

We both speak of Saints...to one side it means the 1% people who walk the walk...to the others it means all believers;

We speak of 7 of 15 books that were within the original Latin Vulgate, but disappeared in the King James version, Catholics call the "deuterocanoconicals - works of a lesser nature" and Protestants call the same thing "aprocrypha - veiled or hidden writings"...

To further complicate things we both reject the gnostic gospels, and the pseudopigrapha, because of errors or rejected doctrines contrary to the canon of 72 books, catholic or 66 books protestant versions...

We need to spend more productive time finding points of unity v's points of contention, for contention and strife is being an accuser of the brethren, which is the work of our enemy..
 
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Ortho_Cat

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I've always been curious as to what that accusation meant exactly. It never seemed to make sense to me, considering the many protestant denominations that don't even have ordained clergy.

I think it means you are free to make up your own rules regarding faith, practice, etc.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Does "obediance to myself" mean I'm conscientious or selfish?
I'll obey me if I'm not just ordering me around to assert my authority over me, but if I tell myself to do something against my conscience, I'll politely tell myself where to get off & I might even give myself a warning not to try something like that again or I'll be someone I'd not like to meet in a dark alley.

i'd actually pay good money to see this... ^_^
 
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