Misconceptions about Protestants

[Dark_Lite]

Turns out i basically am! I never heard of it til CF, but I have yet to find a belief that is any different than I have learned from my own reading of Scripture. The closest congregations are too far for me to really "koinonia" with, but i do plan on learning more and at least visiting.

If you are "basically Orthodox," then you are a lot closer to Catholicism than you apparently realize. There are some vast divides between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but the two are far closer than Catholicism and Protestantism (much less Orthodoxy and Protestantism).

 

[razeontherock]

While I do see what you mean, this also means that "Protestantism" must be quite a bit different than what you expect it needs to be. At least in the congregations I've been active in ...

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

The very foundation of fanatacism.

If I have a hypothesis and the scientific evidence shows differently and proves my hypothesis wrong does that make me a fanatic for believing the science? Indeed, I would be a fanatic if I trusted my hypothesis rather than the Scientific Method and my results. To trust the science would only be reasonable.

The Church's teachings are eminently reasonable. But, like the use of the Scientific Method, my thinking needs to conform to the Church's thinking to be truly reasonable. It is reasonable to believe in the Church's teachings as a way of understanding reality, just as it is reasonable to believe in the Scientific Method as a way of understanding reality. Therefore, accepting the conclusions drawn by the Church is no less reasonable than accepting the conclusions drawn by science.

Fanaticism is contrary to reason. The Catholic religion is the only one entirely conformable to reason. Therefore, fanaticism would be contrary to the orthodox Catholic faith.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you are "basically Orthodox," then you are a lot closer to Catholicism than you apparently realize. There are some vast divides between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but the two are far closer than Catholicism and Protestantism (much less Orthodoxy and Protestantism).

So what?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Wouldn't avoiding idolatry and worshipping graven images eliminate the problem?

and who does that?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

And while RC holds it has never changed it's teachings, the old "actions speak louder than words" proves that you HAVE changed your teachings! For example, no longer is it "taught" that you should torture, maim and kill those that disagree with you, in utter defiance of everything Jesus said.

Have you changed your teachings on torturing, maiming and killing those who disagree with you?

Of course, the fact that we don't live under a Catholic government means that religious liberty is an unfortunately reality that we have to deal with, even if we don't believe in it. We can no longer turn heretics over to the State to be tried and punished for treason.

It is the same with homosexuals. The purging of homosexuals in the Church that is going on right now is not the first time it has happened. The Church turned homosexuals over to the State to be tried and punished. But now what does the State do with homosexuals? Nothing, they either have repealed anti-sodomy laws or refuse to enforce them and many places are even saying it's an intrinsic right to have homosexual sex and pretend to "marry" them.

So whereas the Church could turn heretics over to the State in ages past, just as She could turn homosexuals over to the State, we live under a government where that simply isn't a reality (and that includes nearly every government on earth right now, so everyone here). Does that mean the Church has decided that it doesn't matter what you believe or who you choose to sleep with? Of course not. It still does and heretics who are actually guilty of the crime of heresy and are reprobate do deserve punishment on earth and will be punished for eternity, just as reprobate homosexuals deserve punishment on earth and will be punished for eternity. It is the State's duty to enforce the Natural Law and to provide for the well-being of its subjects so that they can save their soul, the State now no longer cares about the souls of its subjects and often endorses grave sin.

Gotta stop you there, Sister. Surely you recognize Luther did NOT preach separation from the Church, but wanted reform within?

He clearly did not stick to that or else he would have stayed within the Church and not spewed blasphemies.

 

[razeontherock]

like the use of the Scientific Method, my thinking needs to conform to the Church's thinking to be truly reasonable.

Comparing Catholic theology to the scientific method is ... not reasonable. I really don't mean to mess up your Faith, and in fact I'd rather see you develop it; but that isn't the best analogy to use

The Catholic religion is the only one entirely conformable to reason.

Not true. I came to the Lord through cold, hard logic. As Darklite indicated above, I may not be all that far from Catholicism in many regards, but this does falsify your assertion. I am glad to hear you can reason your way through your Faith though! There is a decided lack of that ...

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Turns out i basically am! I never heard of it til CF, but I have yet to find a belief that is any different than I have learned from my own reading of Scripture. The closest congregations are too far for me to really "koinonia" with, but i do plan on learning more and at least visiting.

So then what is your issue with the Catholic Church? Only the role of the Bishop of Rome?

 

[lovernotafighter]

I got scared reading this page. I hope nobody ever has to deal with a Catholic government if that's what you want to bring back.

 

[razeontherock]

Of course, the fact that we don't live under a Catholic government means that religious liberty is an unfortunate reality that we have to deal with

Reading that back, you still like it?

We can no longer turn heretics over to the State to be tried and punished for treason.
heretics who are actually guilty of the crime of heresy deserve punishment on earth

Why do I find no comfort in the fact that other Catholics have pointed out you're in the vast minority here? Apparently I need to point out that "power corrupts," and that Jesus is the ONLY man who will wield Power with purity?

He [Luther] clearly did not stick to that [concept of reformation from within] or else he would have stayed within the Church and not spewed blasphemies.

You're conveniently dismissing the part where RC leadership was (ahem) *not quite as reasonable as the scientific method*

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If you are "basically Orthodox," then you are a lot closer to Catholicism than you apparently realize. There are some vast divides between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but the two are far closer than Catholicism and Protestantism (much less Orthodoxy and Protestantism).

what's funny is, i've heard an Orthodox say the exact opposite thing .

 

[razeontherock]

So then what is your issue with the Catholic Church? Only the role of the Bishop of Rome?

Well I've got to tell you, if I can locate even one RC here in the US that thinks restoring the ... "punishment" of heretics would be a good thing, that makes me suspect there are MANY more in "the old country."

While normally I'm not a single issue guy - this one is a BIGGIE! Again, it flies in the face of everything Jesus taught. He did say to go into the highways and the hedgerows and compel them to come in - but He did NOT say to torture them by ripping the breasts off of women, for just one example of the very things you seem to support. Or have you never learned Church history?

Note EO has no torturous, maiming or killing atrocities in their history; or at least none I've uncovered so far. And I do note that RC maintains that there are "basically no differences w/ EO," but EO points out those many differences are really quite significant, which I agree with.

One of the really funny things is when you decipher all the RC language re: Communion, what you wind up with is the very understanding I had of it from a simple reading before the age of 5. (What I would term a "Spiritual reality")

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I don't think I am misunderstanding the teachings of the Catholic Church. I've taken some care in thinking about them.

As I said before - the possibility that there is a "true" Church is an argument that is plausible from the standpoint of Christian history, but of course if one can't find a Church with actual correct teachings, that rather suggests that no one has the authority. I hear Catholics (and others to really) argue that if one determines that a church has authority, we should just accept it's teachings. That would be true if the argument for authority was itself air tight, but of course it isn't. Even if one gets as far as saying it seems probable, if it then teaches some crazy doctrine (we all go live on our own planet after we die, say) that kind of puts the probability down.

Isn't the doctrine that God became man pretty crazy?

There seems to be no traditional Catholic movement where I live - the best you can do is the local cathedral, but they still use the yucky liturgy, just with a better choir in an old building. (Although this region has been a real centre for the co-operative movement and distributist thought centered around one of the Catholic universities, which I find very interesting.)

Yes, some places are a long way from the nearest Traditional Mass. Someone from my parish actually moved so as to be near the SSPX chapel and then fell out with them and has to drive a while to get to the FSSP parish where I go.

SSPX chapels in Canada
FSSP apostolates in Canada
FSSP and Diocesan Latin Mass in Canada
The Anglican Catholic Church in Canada (TAC) parishes

For completeness:
Orthodox Church of America parish listings

(I'm not endorsing the OCA, of course (and there are other jurisdictions because of the weird situation in North America) but being in the Anglican Communion in the past few years felt like being a rat on a sinking ship. I was convinced of the importance of the Holy See (Catholic background didn't hurt) but I do believe you would probably have a better chance of beatitude through the Orthodox rather than sticking to the Anglican Communion, at least there is no doubt about the validity of their Sacraments and their orthodoxy.)

Just some ideas, I don't know where you are exactly.

I agree the Anglicans will probably fall apart. Being Canadians perhaps not so spectacularly here as TEC will.

Are you in the Anglican Church in Canada or another, non-Communion, denomination?

I actually think Eastern thinking is more rational than Western thought in many ways. Buddhism I don't think I agree on as bing a paper plane - at least not in all it's forms. If I were not a Christian, I think I might be a Buddhist - as a form of natural religion I think it is generally quite elegant.

I had an interest in Theravada Buddhism for a while, they seem pretty rational but in other ways they are not (for example, the existence of a personal God is knowable through the light of natural reason).

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Reading that back, you still like it?

Why wouldn't I?

No one has the right to sin. Therefore, there can be no such thing as a right to practice any religion other than the correct one. Errors may be tolerated, especially as we no longer have State power enforcing the moral law, but that doesn't mean they should be legitimized or approved. As in my comparison, homosexuals may be tolerated in society in that we aren't throwing them in jail or executing them but there is a big difference between mere toleration and actual positive legitimization or approval.

Jesus Christ has a the final and ultimate authority -- all rights are relative to God's and exist only insofar as they are ordered towards Him. False religions are not ordered towards God, therefore they may be tolerated -- just as God has allowed them to grow rather than wiping them all out but yet the false religions, as such, do not have a right to exist.

... it is a dogma of faith that Jesus Christ was given to man, not only as our Redeemer, but also as a law-giver, to whom obedience is due.[Trent, VI, Can XXI (quoted below) *] ... It would be a grave error, on the other hand, to say that Christ has no authority whatever in civil affairs, since, by virtue of the absolute empire over all creatures committed to him by the Father, all things are in his power.
...
Thus the empire of our Redeemer embraces all men. To use the words of Our immortal predecessor, Pope Leo XIII: "His empire includes not only Catholic nations, not only baptized persons who, though of right belonging to the Church, have been led astray by error, or have been cut off from her by schism, but also all those who are outside the Christian faith; so that truly the whole of mankind is subject to the power of Jesus Christ."[Annum Sacrum] Nor is there any difference in this matter between the individual and the family or the State; for all men, whether collectively or individually, are under the dominion of Christ. In him is the salvation of the individual, in him is the salvation of society. "Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved."[Acts 4:12] He is the author of happiness and true prosperity for every man and for every nation. "For a nation is happy when its citizens are happy. What else is a nation but a number of men living in concord?"[S. Augustine, Ep. 153] If, therefore, the rulers of nations wish to preserve their authority, to promote and increase the prosperity of their countries, they will not neglect the public duty of reverence and obedience to the rule of Christ. What We said at the beginning of Our Pontificate concerning the decline of public authority, and the lack of respect for the same, is equally true at the present day. "With God and Jesus Christ," we said, "excluded from political life, with authority derived not from God but from man, the very basis of that authority has been taken away, because the chief reason of the distinction between ruler and subject has been eliminated. The result is that human society is tottering to its fall, because it has no longer a secure and solid foundation."[Ubi Arcano Dei Consilio]

* - Council of Trent:

If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema

~~~

A nation without God as its foundation is a nation built on sand. Our present-day governments may not enforce God's Law and may even act contrary to it, but that doesn't make it right -- the rights of God infinitely outweigh any alleged rights of man that violate God's rights.

Christ is King!

 

[Heavens]

So what?

You only get singed around the edges in that group

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Well I've got to tell you, if I can locate even one RC here in the US that thinks restoring the ... "punishment" of heretics would be a good thing, that makes me suspect there are MANY more in "the old country."

That is up to the people in charge of the government (and, in a democracy -- that's us). All I can say is that all crimes will be punished by God. Some crimes should also be punished on earth. We punish some murderers and rapists and thieves but others we let walk free (like abortionists). The government is not always just but this doesn't eliminate the actual moral effect of their actions because the government is not the highest authority.

No one who believes the Bible can say that those who commit homosexual acts do not deserve death -- God says it quite clearly (Lev 20:13)-- and certainly they will die the second death (1Cor 6:10) if they die unrepentant. But when the actual question of sodomy laws comes up, even many conservative Christians become hesitant (Wikipedia -- Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill). It is possible to hold that even though homosexuals deserve death, punishing them may cause bigger problems (such as "witch-hunts" and calumnity).

Likewise, it is clear that those who are guilty of heresy or schism deserve to be punished and removed from society; just like a murderer is prevented from killing other people, the heretic (the heresiarch, in particular) should be prevented from killing souls. Sometimes it is helpful to unleash force of arms to keep heresies from spreading (cf. America's attempts to stem the spread of Communism), but if it causes more harm than good, they may be tolerated. It depends on the viciousness of the heresy, the political environment and the openness of the heretics to conversion to orthodoxy.

St. Dominic was able to convert many heretics to the Catholic faith and thus save them from execution. This is obviously the best way.

As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live.

He did say to go into the highways and the hedgerows and compel them to come in - but He did NOT say to torture them by ripping the breasts off of women, for just one example of the very things you seem to support. Or have you never learned Church history?

Yes, there have been sadistic people throughout history. Yes, some of them worked in government and their jobs were legitimized. What of it?

Note EO has no torturous, maiming or killing atrocities in their history; or at least none I've uncovered so far. And I do note that RC maintains that there are "basically no differences w/ EO," but EO points out those many differences are really quite significant, which I agree with.

So there was no Massacre of the Latins? Good.

One of the really funny things is when you decipher all the RC language re: Communion, what you wind up with is the very understanding I had of it from a simple reading before the age of 5. (What I would term a "Spiritual reality")

What do you mean?

 

[MKJ]

Isn't the doctrine that God became man pretty crazy?

Yes and no. However I was using a crazy idea mostly to explain the logical point I was making. I don't think most of the CC things I have a problem with are crazy, I just really think they are wrong.

Yes, some places are a long way from the nearest Traditional Mass. Someone from my parish actually moved so as to be near the SSPX chapel and then fell out with them and has to drive a while to get to the FSSP parish where I go.

SSPX chapels in Canada
FSSP apostolates in Canada
FSSP and Diocesan Latin Mass in Canada
The Anglican Catholic Church in Canada (TAC) parishes

For completeness:
Orthodox Church of America parish listings

(I'm not endorsing the OCA, of course (and there are other jurisdictions because of the weird situation in North America) but being in the Anglican Communion in the past few years felt like being a rat on a sinking ship. I was convinced of the importance of the Holy See (Catholic background didn't hurt) but I do believe you would probably have a better chance of beatitude through the Orthodox rather than sticking to the Anglican Communion, at least there is no doubt about the validity of their Sacraments and their orthodoxy.)

Just some ideas, I don't know where you are exactly.

Are you in the Anglican Church in Canada or another, non-Communion, denomination?

There may be a SSPX chapel in my province - a few hours away. I wouldn't consider them as an option however, even if I were to become Catholic - I don't see their position as tenable. And as far as I can decipher, although Catholics are allowed to attend, the SSPX are not actually allowed to do many of the things they do (like offer baptisms or confession) so I don't see how it can make sense to accept those things from them.

We actually have a lovely little Orthodox parish in our church hall which I have visited in the past. I know a few people there and it is where I would go.

It's a bit of a moot point though because my husband is hesitant and quite happy where we are. And we are in a very good Anglican parish. It is part of the ACC. At the moment the relationship with the Bishops is very quiet and hands off, but that may change; it may be that we have to find a new direction at that point.

I had an interest in Theravada Buddhism for a while, they seem pretty rational but in other ways they are not (for example, the existence of a personal God is knowable through the light of natural reason).

Do you think? I can't think of any actual examples of this, which I would expect if it was clear.

 

[MKJ]

I spoke too soon, there is an SSP chapel here, I think a priest travels in. There is a Latin Mass in a monastery in another part of the province where we often have parish retreats as well, but I am not sure if it is the OF in Latin or the EF.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (anathema maranatha)

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (anathema maranatha)

Galatians 2

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I'll trump your Council of Trent with the first council in Jerusalem .

 

[TR23]

A friend who used to be a Roman Catholic thought they we never took Holy Communion.

Not far from the truth considering most may take it once or twice a year.

The early christian church took communion as often as every day.