Misconceptions about Protestants

[laconicstudent]

We do as Jesus defines it. Otherwise Christianity is not a religion, for Jesus didn't come to establish such a thing. Man has turned it into one.

Do you know what the English word "religion" even means? Its rather absurd to say that Christ didn't establish one.

Not.

Brilliant argument, lively stone. Saying "Not" is terribly convincing.

 

[Lively Stone]

[/b]Do you know what the English word "religion" even means? Its rather absurd to say that Christ didn't establish one.

Jesus hates religion. He didn't come to start a religion. He came to bring salvation and freedom. What we who love Him have with Him is an intimate relationship.

 

[laconicstudent]

Jesus hates religion. He didn't come to start a religion. He came to bring salvation and freedom. What we who love Him have with Him is an intimate relationship.

Obviously, the answer to my question is "No".
re·li·gion

   /rɪˈlɪdʒ

ən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uh

n] Show IPA
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

7. religions, Archaic . religious rites.

8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.





So just so I understand you, Jesus "hates" having an understanding of the universe that is informed by Him, "hates" people following the beliefs and practices ordained by Him, "hates" the body of people who worship Him and "hates" monasticism.

Yeah, I'd say Jesus came to establish a religion more then anything else!

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I am not the one who is saying that they disagree with Vatican II and three other popes with regard to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

You say that Catholics are not subject to whims. Yet, how did do you determine your views of Catholic charismatics? Is it from viewing vatican documents that are available? Is it from an orderly exposition from scripture?

No, you apparently have a better source. You went to You Tube and type "charismatics". You might at least type "catholic charismatics. And when I say that the Renewal started in the 70's, you have your picture to show how terrible the nature was of anything from that era.

You have a very strange way at getting at the truth of things.

I have a printed copy of a sermon my pastor gave on the Charismatic movement (primarily aimed at CCR) this past summer. It's too late to dig it out now but I could sample some quotes from it tomorrow night.

As for the 1970s, I was not alive. But I have heard many things from people who grew up in there and have read things from then. The early '70s was when my grandmother and my mother fell away from the faith (as very many people did) because of the post-Vatican II / New Mass chaos in the Church. So yes, I do resent what that movement did, a great many souls were lost because of it. It will take at least another 100 years to undo the effects of the modernist crisis.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Misconception # - - what are we up to now?

RC may need to "explain their beliefs," seeing a sermon with "just Scripture somehow as a *problem.*

Pr doesn't. I believe G-d's Word will not return unto Him void, but will accomplish that which it was sent to do.

I thought Evangelical/Fundamentalist services were entirely or almost entirely sermons with some hymns before and after.

That is why the Catholics decided to put their sermons in the middle of Mass, right after the reading of the Gospel and the Epistle and before the Creed. Prior to that, the Mass of the Catechumens (the first part, with the readings) just ran right into the Mass of the Faithful (the second part, with the actual consecration and Communion). When you see sermons from the Church Fathers and anyone prior to the Council of Trent, these sermons were delivered either before or after Mass or not even related to it. The Catholic Church wanted to ensure that people were being educated against the Protestant errors so they started putting sermons in the middle of Mass.

So our sermons during Sunday/Holy Day Mass are about 15-20 minutes long. How long are sermons at your church?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

False.

The only people qualified fro water baptism (immersion) are those whoa re already believers. Unbelievers need not apply.

This is addressed in another post of mine -- baptism without faith imparts the character of baptism (the person is now baptized) but the effect of baptism (salvation, the remission of Original and actual sin) does not occur until the person is actually converted to the faith.

Water does nothing. It is our faith that saves us by the washing of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

No one is saying that the water is what saves us, we aren't Hindus bathing in the Ganges. But water baptism is necessary (though not absolutely) for salvation.

It is impossible to lose one's salvation if one abides in Christ.

Okay, well, you just said it -- "if one abides in Christ". It's not like you are just going to randomly lose your salvation, that God is going to drop you as a lark, people actually do something to lose their salvation -- they commit a mortal sin, they reject Christ and salvation. In order to regain their salvation, they have to have contrition (be sorry for their sin) and confess their sins.

There are many who undergo false conversions, with no regeneration.--not saved at all. People can also walk away from acknowledging Christ, but they never had a relationship with Him, and were enticed by sin. We know the Bible says that we cannot continue in sin. Those who do are not saved. Their lack of fruit is a giveaway.

For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.

You are saying that those who fall away have never been "illuminated" and have never "tasted also the heavenly gift" and were not "made partakers of the Holy Ghost" nor have "tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come". The Bible says that some people do and yet still fall away.

It is impossible for people to start over -- to be baptized again and be cleansed of their sin that way. But that doesn't mean they are entirely lost and reprobate. They can come back.

You are saying that after people are baptized and have faith, they lose their free will. That seems to be apparently false. So instead you say that if people later sin and reject Christ, they never were saved in the first place.

It seems a funny thing that some people call this doctrine "eternal assurance". It seems to me that it is the complete opposite of assurance -- you never know if you are saved right now or not since in the future you could fall away and therefore you are not saved right now. It's like Schroedinger's cat.

Of course we have apostasy among us, and reprobates who become enticed away by the demonic tactics of Satan. That is why in Revelation 3 it tells us that some names CAN be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. We mustn't be Pollyanna-ish about salvation, but our salvation isn't as tenuous as you make it out to be.

Ah, but if they were never saved in the first place, why would their names ever have been in the Lamb's Book of Life? Therefore, people be saved and then choose to reject it and be damned.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Jesus hates religion. He didn't come to start a religion. He came to bring salvation and freedom. What we who love Him have with Him is an intimate relationship.

Eh? Define "religion" because you are apparently using a different definition than what is common usage.

Religion is a belief about, and therefore a relationship with, God (or gods). How do you distinguish the two?

 

[Lively Stone]

Obviously, the answer to my question is "No".
re·li·gion

   /rɪˈlɪdʒ

ən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uh

n] Show IPA
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

7. religions, Archaic . religious rites.

8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.





So just so I understand you, Jesus "hates" having an understanding of the universe that is informed by Him, "hates" people following the beliefs and practices ordained by Him, "hates" the body of people who worship Him and "hates" monasticism.

Yeah, I'd say Jesus came to establish a religion more then anything else!

The dictionary gives secularized versions of these kinds of words. We know what Jesus came for and it was not to start a new religion. Not at all.

 

[Lively Stone]

This is addressed in another post of mine -- baptism without faith imparts the character of baptism (the person is now baptized) but the effect of baptism (salvation, the remission of Original and actual sin) does not occur until the person is actually converted to the faith.

Baptism without faith is just a dunk. Unbelievers are not invited.

No one is saying that the water is what saves us, we aren't Hindus bathing in the Ganges. But water baptism is necessary (though not absolutely) for salvation.

Baptism is a command for believers.

Okay, well, you just said it -- "if one abides in Christ". It's not like you are just going to randomly lose your salvation, that God is going to drop you as a lark, people actually do something to lose their salvation -- they commit a mortal sin, they reject Christ and salvation. In order to regain their salvation, they have to have contrition (be sorry for their sin) and confess their sins.

Many people I have talked to believe that we lose our salvation every time we sin. That is an error that must be declared loud and clear.

There is no such thing as a mortal (or otherwise) sin. The bible talks about those who become reprobate: there is no repentance left for them.

You are saying that those who fall away have never been "illuminated" and have never "tasted also the heavenly gift" and were not "made partakers of the Holy Ghost" nor have "tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come". The Bible says that some people do and yet still fall away.

Many people benefit from their associations in the Body of Christ. It doesn't mean they have truly partaken of Jesus Christ.

It is impossible for people to start over -- to be baptized again and be cleansed of their sin that way. But that doesn't mean they are entirely lost and reprobate. They can come back.

That is between God and themselves. Only He knows their hearts. However the word does state that the Holy Spirit doesn't contend forever with people and he will abandon them.

You are saying that after people are baptized and have faith, they lose their free will. That seems to be apparently false. So instead you say that if people later sin and reject Christ, they never were saved in the first place.

No one ever loses their free will. We were created with it. Please try again!

It seems a funny thing that some people call this doctrine "eternal assurance". It seems to me that it is the complete opposite of assurance -- you never know if you are saved right now or not since in the future you could fall away and therefore you are not saved right now. It's like Schroedinger's cat.

I know I am saved because I trust God's promises to be true. I know Jesus Christ personally, so how can I ever deny Him? His love is too wonderful and His strength He gives is too marvelous!

Ah, but if they were never saved in the first place, why would their names ever have been in the Lamb's Book of Life? Therefore, people be saved and then choose to reject it and be damned.

That's right--it is a rare thing, but people who are wobbly in their faith and do not become firmly anchored live treacherously, and the overcoming life eludes them, so they stumble and fall away due to trials, or greed or even pride, and all by the mechanizations of Satan himself.

 

[Heavens]

I want to know how Heavens makes his statement "I sure am glad I'm not either RC or Pr." Before I discovered CF, that's how I identified myself too. RC's on the warpath as a means of 'reaching across the aisle' somehow got me to forfeit that perspective.

I would be happy to let you know razeon.

I was full of trepidation when just a puppy, but eventually I was able to walk into any organization and break bread. RC, Pr, and everything in between.
Ax me about any religion lol. I've been in them all. Fishing.

Not having come from either, but of Jewish persuasion, I'm amazed at both RC and Pr and their bloody wars. I don't go into RC anymore because they refuse me the blood of Christ. I don't go into any protestant church except for to break bread, drink wine (hard to find wine too!) and find worshippers of one God, our Lord Jesus. Not many in protestant churches do, none in RC. But I find a Bible student here and there...

"I'm reaching across the aisle, take my hand you pagan", lol. I don't think ther'll be any hand holding here. No world shaking monument will arise from this thread I don't think.

I've found Jesus as my God in every manifestation, the Messiah of Israel, come as promised. That doesn't fit with most protestants, but interestingly, is met with almost enthusiasm amongst the RC.
My Jewish family has hidden rejection toward me. They think they are God's chosen. But I'm not now, because I became a follower of who I know is Christ come and they are against Christ.
So not seeing any Church of the true living God on the earth, I bring what little church of the living God I have in me and all the spirits of just men made perfect, in the Heavenly City Jerusalem, Mt Sion, My Church... I bring all that to them. To you! My new home. I have no other church home, but I invite everyone to Jesus, whether RC or Pr.
Love and grace just seems so much more important to me right now than wondering if others are right or wrong. that stuff all works out in the wash without me having to deal with it. I'd rather be like Jesus in not finding fault en mass. There are more important things little lambs, you dears!

 

[Lively Stone]

I've found Jesus as my God in every manifestation, the Messiah of Israel, come as promised. That doesn't fit with most protestants, but interestingly, is met with almost enthusiasm amongst the RC.

Pardon me? That is just not true. Jesus the Christ is the Messiah of Israel. People who would deny that and still call themselves Christians need to read their Bibles and believe what God is saying there.

 

[Heavens]

Pardon me? That is just not true. Jesus the Christ is the Messiah of Israel. People who would deny that and still call themselves Christians need to read their Bibles and believe what God is saying there.

Yea, sadly it is true Lively. There are people on threads here that put a lot of energy into robbing the church of Her Jerusalem Brideship to Christ and teach something else.
They say Jesus didn't fulfill all the law and the prophets when He came, that we in Christ aren't Israel redeemed. Can you believe that?
Protestants have a strange unholy marriage to the modern day Jews so-called. They actually think God is somehow with them or will be. It is a style of religion like christian, but it's different.
Check out the posts on the GT "dispensationalism" thread and read of people divorcing themselves from Christ, handing over their wedding dress to the Jews and their strange ideas, you will be sadly amazed Lively
They have that pharisee idea that everything is all supposed to be physically fulfilled on the planet. A "futurism" planetwide forced kind of religion sort of. They even have Christ coming in a physical body again lol.
I've noticed that the Church of Christ doesn't appear to involve themselves in this kind of thinking as deeply as the others. They know that we are the Kingdom of God now and that Christ is reigning forever on the throne of David. So I have something of the Lord in common with them and have found fertile ground there. But most Pr are hard core into a fairly new brand of christianity that isn't any closer or farther away from God than RC. Check it out. I haven't dared step foot in there yet lol. They look vicious

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Baptism saves. This doesn't mean people can't sin and lose their salvation after baptism and have to repent of those sins and do penance for them. But if someone gets baptized and then gets hit by a car leaving the church, they will go straight to Heaven.

this sounds kinda heretical actually . it seems to say that people are saved by the sacraments themselves and not by God's faithfulness.

 

[MKJ]

this sounds kinda heretical actually . it seems to say that people are saved by the sacraments themselves and not by God's faithfulness.

The Sacrament is one way that God chooses to show his faithfulness to us.

God is certainly not limited to working through the Sacraments. If we take your line of argument here, it would also be incorrect to say people are saved through faith, because then it would be faith that saves and not God. Of course both are true in a sense and are related; faith saves and God saves. The Sacraments have a relation to God, and also with our faith.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Misconception # - - what are we up to now?

RC may need to "explain their beliefs," seeing a sermon with "just Scripture somehow as a *problem.*

Pr doesn't. I believe G-d's Word will not return unto Him void, but will accomplish that which it was sent to do.

Uh, what? Everybody and anybody needs to explain their beliefs. Doesn't matter who they are.

I want to know how Heavens makes his statement "I sure am glad I'm not either RC or Pr." Before I discovered CF, that's how I identified myself too. RC's on the warpath as a means of 'reaching across the aisle' somehow got me to forfeit that perspective.

Protestantism characterizes the groups that came out of the Reformation and the theology they created. Non-Denominationalism falls under that umbrella, despite how much some of its members may want to deny it. Many Non-Demoninational Christians are fundamentalist Calvinists (read: Protestant). Others lean more towards Pentecostal-esque "spirit-filled" belief (read: Protestant). Almost all of them believe in Sola Scriptura, and I doubt you'll find any Non-Denominational church that believes in sacraments and apostolic succession like the ancient Churches.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Sacrament is one way that God chooses to show his faithfulness to us.

God is certainly not limited to working through the Sacraments. If we take your line of argument here, it would also be incorrect to say people are saved through faith, because then it would be faith that saves and not God. Of course both are true in a sense and are related; faith saves and God saves. The Sacraments have a relation to God, and also with our faith.

but you have to read what she said however,

she was saying someone could go murder someone,

get baptized

then get in a car wreck

and go to heaven .

its the faith that saves not the baptism .

even the person receiving the sacrament needs to believe for it to be effective .

 

[simonthezealot]

would you send your child to a Catholic Vacation Bible School?

Absolutely NOT, why? because they don't view scripture as the only infallible word.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*<snip>* Almost all of them believe in Sola Scriptura, and I doubt you'll find any Non-Denominational church that believes in sacraments and apostolic succession like the ancient Churches.

Have you not read where it is written:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G744&t=KJV
Strong's Number G744 matches the Greek &#7936;&#961;&#967;&#945;&#8150;&#959;&#962; (archaios), which occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2 Corin 5:17 So that if any in Christ, a New creation. The ancient-things/arcaia <744> pass-away.
Behold! has-become New the all-things
[Reve 21:5]

Reve 21:5 And said the One sitting upon the throne "behold! New all-things I am making".
And he is saying to me "Write! that these the Words true and faithful are".

 

[razeontherock]

Arguing about who worships Christ better just seem so nonsensical.

I get a lot of traits from my Mom, but her propensity for 'wearing rose colored glasses' is not one of them. (By design) I wish I could say you made the quoted statement here upon entering this thread, for the purpose of exposing, discussing, and healing from misconceptions about Pr's. IMHO, that type of thing 'puts legs on the prayer' of saying "G-d Bless you." If anything, this thread gives us all a glimpse of just how much work remains to be done in this area!! Scary, isn't it?!?

I believe this thread was started for that very purpose, to facilitate that type of healing - on BOTH sides of the aisle. Surely Christ's Body needs it! How much more effective will ALL our prayers be, (not just prayers for miraculous healing, which is no laughing matter) when we learn to prefer one another, and even honor one another AS BELIEVERS, despite our differences, consistent w/ 1 Peter 3:7. Just that one thing in common gives us a joint inheritance, separating us from the rest of the world, and enters us into a marriage vow.

This is Holy stuff, folks!

I won't say it's sad that it took some truly vile and warped posts to put things back in perspective. Instead I'll point out that Romans 8:28 still applies, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God."

Proving yet again we ALL have One Shepherd, and he is the Good Shepherd

And let's pray for that poor warped soul ("I have cake?") maliciously trying to use CF as a platform for satan's worst ... some astounding conversions have taken place, even within Pr circles, even via televangelists who's style none of us enjoy ... and let me point out pertinent Scripture for that too:


"And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Pp 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."


Jesus said essentially the same thing when His Disciples complained about others preaching and doing miracles, but even though I'm unable to find the primary passage right now, can't we still learn from St Paul?

 

[tadoflamb]

I think another misconception about protestants is that we can address them as if they subsist as one body. Truly, in order to give the dignity and honor each believer deserves, I must consider them individually or at least at the denominational level.

To lump them all together does a disservice to both them and me.