The Liturgist

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I don't know how read you are in logic, but you made a mutually exclusive claim, and actually did in fact appeal to a conspiracy theory. It is a conspiracy theory to allege that the Holy Fire is not real. And it is mutually exclusive (contradictory) to claim that it is accomplished by pyrotechnics and sacred at the same time. If it is fake, then it is blasphemous, not sacred. You didn't respond to my point that the spontaneous ignition of candles, inside and outside the church, is multiply attested by independent witnesses. This fact refutes the hypothesis that it is accomplished by pyrotechnics.

Who cares what atheists think? They have never been able to disprove the Holy Fire. Let the facts speak for themselves.

By the way, for introductory use, I strongly suggest you consult this article on Wikipedia, which is a great way for one to familiarize themselves with the various forms of logical fallacy: List of fallacies - Wikipedia

I do try to avoid logical fallacies, and likewise call on others to avoid them, and I have called out members of ChristianForums for employing fallacious arguments on many occasions (something members of one particular denomination that I regard as extremely heterodox tend to do very frequently in Denomination Specific Theology when attacking the traditional liturgical churches).
 
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The Liturgist

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You didn't respond to my point that the spontaneous ignition of candles, inside and outside the church, is multiply attested by independent witnesses

I did actually respond to this point old sport, in one of my preceding posts on the subject. I specifically mentioned that this is irrelevant since spontaneous ignition can be very easily accomplished through multiple pyrotechnic methods and is by itself not miraculous.

However I did not dwell on the point because, as I outlined in my preceding post, it is my firm contention that the Holy Fire is an icon of the triumph of Christ over death on the cross and therefore is extremely sacred regards of what causes it, just as Holy Water is an icon pertaining to our baptism, and also the media in which we are baptized. Thus whether or not it is ignited purely by divine action or is ignited in honor of God using a pyrotechnic method is irrelevant, since what is important specifically in the case of Holy Fire is what it is liturgically representing.
 
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abacabb3

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You're assuming that this teaching is the source of my concern. I read material where he allegedly stated that most married people go to hell, and he gave a demeaning and Gnostic type interpretation of marriage. But I am being honest when I say that I don't have proof that this information is accurate. Someone may have slandered him.
...no I'm not , other people yave voiced this
 
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ArmyMatt

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If Holy Fire is a pyrotechnic, my thought is that it is derived from the same theoretical knowledge that allowed for Greek Fire, but intentionally engineered so as to minimize the risks of burning. I also doubt that it is still understood or even intentionally engaged in. From the reports I’ve heard and the research, I have an untested hypothesis as to what might be going on, which is in contrast to the reversal of the Jordan, which perhaps could be triggered by a sluice gate of some sort but this seems improbable due to the scale that would be needed; it would be a spectacular feat of civil engineering I should think.

My view is that we should regard the Holy Fire as sacred liturgy and simply not provide atheists with a vector to attack our faith, by not allowing the mechanism of its action to become subject to any official dogmatic or doctrinal interpretation, since this could expose us to attempts at debunking, and if, as I do believe is possible, Holy Fire actually is entirely supernatural (although I think it is not) I would not put it past atheists to try to discredit it anyway by demonstrating a similar phenomena and then perhaps using unethical approaches so as to introduce false or contaminated evidence to suggest Holy Fire is the same thing.

My belief, to clarify, is that it is probably pyrotechnic, but liturgically legitimate; possibly supernatural, but if it is supernatural, owing to the extreme sophistication of ancient Greek pyrotechnics and contemporary pyrotechnics, we have given atheists already a vector that they are using in blog posts et cetera to attack our faith, and as I see it the solution to this is a delicate one of characterizing it using liturgical terms which they cannot honestly debunk, and to avoid making a specific interpretation of Holy Fire a major doctrinai or dogmatic issue.

Additionally I think, controversially perhaps, that concerning our miraculous icons and relics that stream myrhh, as an example, since occasional icon fraud occurs, and also because of the danger of iconoclastic Protestants and Muslims trying to destroy these holy and precious relics and icons, that the Orthodox Church should try to avoid broadcasting the existence of these particular phenomena, which I have a very strong faith in. Rather the focus should be on the expeditious conveyance of the sacred myrrh from relics and icons that do provide it, such as the relics of St. Nicholas, to the faithful, as my experience is that the material is of very profound benefit.

I also really don’t want infidels, even if they are prevented from destroying or stealing or damaging myrhh streaming relics and icons, to have the motive or opportunity to desecrate it, but I believe clergy should make every effort to make it available to their parishioners. There retired ROCOR archbishop in Las Vegas, formerly of the OCA, Vladyka Nikolai who often has myrrh available for his people. The Coptic Orthodox monks in Yermo, CA are also very good about this.
but this is a public miracle that doesn’t follow what any historical pyrotechnic anything has ever done.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Indeed, and I really love the brethren at his monastery. He was very good at receiving them and they were exceptionally kind, as was Fr. Paisios, his deputy, who was extremely kind to my mother.

Indeed the kindness of the monks at St. Anthony’s makes me particularly annoyed at attacks towards that monastery or the others founded by Elder Ephrem as well as against his character. I especially bristle at the accusation that he was a cult leader, which is totally false.
meh, if he is doing God’s work, he should be attacked by the worldly and ignorant.
 
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The Liturgist

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meh, if he is doing God’s work, he should be attacked by the worldly and ignorant.

Yes that’s very true, but it still is upsetting, particularly when one knows the person in question. However what you say is both true and comforting.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes that’s very true, but it still is upsetting, particularly when one knows the person in question. However what you say is both true and comforting.
indeed
 
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Euthymios

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Indeed, the idea that he had a Gnostic interpretation of marriage is ludicrous. There were many married couples when I was there in 2015.

I think one reason why Elder Ephraim received ,and continues to receive after his repose in 2018, so much criticism, is because his monastery is a bastion of tradition within the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America in that it is a transplant of an Athonite tradition into the deserts of Arizona. GoArch is known for having internal political controversies which are unfortunate and it is easy to see how some might get wrapped up in that, particularly given the disconnect between the worship at the monastery and the worship in some of the parishes (which comes down to a difference in the application of the Violakis Typikon; the monastery is not even using the Sabaite-Studite typikon in use on Mount Athos or the Julian calendar as these would likely cause an excess of confusion, but the mere style of worship there is quite a bit different from what one sees in the parishes, for example even the vestments are different since the monastery uses Athonite vestments, which have the raised collar like those in most of the OCA and in the Russian church, and GoArch parishes use the Byzantine vestments which simply hang over the shoulders.
I believe Elder Ephraim's monasteries have been targeted by modernists, ecumenists, and jealous people, but nevertheless, according to one source, Elder Ephraim taught that if we marry, we will probably go to hell. I don't know if he really believed this though, because there is so much gossip and slander by wicked people on line, so it's hard to know the truth.
 
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The Liturgist

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but nevertheless, according to one source, Elder Ephraim taught that if we marry, we will probably go to hell.

Well like I said, and like Fr. Matt @ArmyMatt said, it is extremely unlikely that Elder Ephraim said that. Because why would he be blessing newly wed couples as guests at his monastery if he thought their marriage would result in their probable damnation? The idea is absurd.

Also Elder Ephraim was actually very strongly opposed to Gnosticism and he was also according to some homosexual Byzantine Catholics I once encountered, unwilling to welcome a Byzantine Catholic hierarch to his monastery, which the Byzantine Catholics seemed to regard as being such a great offense against the principle of monasticism, but it seemed to me to be not an unreasonable position. I do know that the Coptic Orthodox monks from St. Anthony’s in Yermo were allowed to visit, although they were not welcomed with enthusiasm, but being allowed to visit while being Oriental Orthodox was by itself enough of a begrudging concession. If he had objected to the visit of the Coptic monks and had prevented them from visiting, I would find that to be frustrating, but on the other hand his exclusion of the Byzantine Catholic exarch, if it actually happened, which I am not sure of at all, strikes me as correct. The Orthodox should be firm but fair with the hierarchs of the Eastern Catholic Churches, in that our position should be one of welcoming them to end the schism by returning to Orthodoxy, as St. Alexis Toth and several others of Ruthenian Catholic ethnicity actually did, by joining the Russian Orthodox Church and later the Greek Orthodox church, with the former largely winding up in the OCA and the latter becoming ACROD. Although I do wish that the bishop of ACROD were Ruthenian rather than Greek. The majority of Carpatho Rusyn / Ruthenian and Lemko bishops in Orthodoxy in the US have been in the OCA, and also I believe some ROCOR parishes in Pennsylvania and even the MP parish in Wilkes-Barre, which due to the mass conversions from the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church in the area resulting in it having such a high percentage of Eastern Orthodox citizens has acquired the amusing nickname of “Fourth Rome.”
 
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Euthymios

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I am well read in logic, and I do not believe I made a fallacious argument, although I may have explained it incorrectly.

Now, firstly, appeal to a conspiracy theory is not per se a logical fallacy, however, such an appeal would be an appeal to unqualified authority, but I did not appeal to that conspiracy theory as I do not agree with it, although I would not personally regard it as a conspiracy theory. Appeal to unqualified authority is of course a legitimate logical fallacy which should be avoided, along with appeal to ignorance.

Now, regarding mutually exclusive claims, I did not claim that the Holy Fire is not real or is fake. Rather I expressed a view that is somewhat more subtle than that. I disagree vehemently with the idea that if the Holy Fire is not entirely supernatural, it is therefore inauthentic and unholy or some kind of pious fraud, as I said before. Rather, my assertion is that it is liturgical and probably contains a technological component, but that it is a holy liturgy, a sacred liturgy, and very important. I believe furthermore that my understanding actually aligns with the prayers said by the Patriarch of Jerusalem at the Holy Fire service, which are written in Greek, but when translated can be interpreted as making an iconographic interpretation of the Holy Fire.

So just to summarize what I believe, for purposes of simplicity, my position is specifically that as defined in the following ten points:

  1. The Holy Fire is Holy, specifically, a sacramental, because it is blessed within a liturgical context, much like Holy Water.
  2. The specifics of its ignition and distribution are very likely the result of a pyrotechnical process, albeit one not conducted in a manner that is deliberately deceptive.
  3. This being said, I cannot reasonably exclude the possibility that it is entirely supernatural, but based on my understanding of the prayers made by the Patriarch of Jerusalem, I think it is best understood liturgically and iconographically, specifically, the Holy Fire being an icon of the light of Christ and of His triumph over darkness and evil on the cross.
  4. This iconographic understanding is the most important element of the Holy Fire, since the whole point of the liturgy is the spreading of the Light of Christ in celebration of His Resurrection.
  5. Thus the Holy Fire is sacred regardless of the actual process by which it is ignited and distributed, which are in my view almost irrelevant, particularly considering that the Holy Fire is not itself one of the formally recognized Sacraments or Mysteries of the church, like the Eucharist or Baptism or Holy Unction or Holy Matrimony or Holy Orders, or indeed Chrismation and Reconciliation, all of which are sacred mysteries that are supernatural. Indeed the actual transformation of the bread and wine into the very body and blood of our Lord is the entirely supernatural, recurrent miracle par excellence.
  6. That being said, sacramentals such as Holy Fire and also Holy Water and other blessings and consecrations are nonetheless sacred and of extreme importance to the faithful.
  7. Ergo, if it is the case that the ignition and spreading of the Holy Fire are the result of a pyrotechnic process, this does not mean that the Holy Fire is not sacred or a blessing upon the people, because Holy Water begins as regular water and is consecrated, and once consecrated takes on the properties of a sacramental, and is known to have been involved in a great many miracles in terms of healing, and in terms of repelling demons, and otherwise for good and important ends.
  8. A liturgical understanding of Holy Fire helps protect the Church from damaging attacks by atheists, whereas conversely insisting upon a belief that the Holy Fire is an entirely supernatural phenomenon and then making this claim outside of the church and using it as a means of trying to convert people to Orthodoxy is a very bad idea, for multiple reasons, not just because of the ease with which atheists could potentially discredit it, even dishonestly (for example, by replicating its effects as a means of debunking it, and perhaps by planting evidence in the Holy Sepulchre). So even if it is supernatural, the mystery of it should be protected.
  9. Thus the Holy Fire is best communicated as being liturgical, a sacramental, similar to Holy Water. It, and the other repeating miraclous incidents in the Holy Land such as the reversal of the Jordan should furthermore be regarded as sacred mysteries of the Orthodox Church which should not be discussed with outsiders but rather reserved as a blessing for the faithful.
  10. Likewise, to protect our myrhh-streaming icons and relics and especially the myrhh itself from desecration, their status should not be greatly discussed or emphasized in conversation with people outside of the Orthodox Church, however, every effort should be made to distribute the Sacred Myrhh to the faithful with maximum expiediency.
Appeal to a conspiracy theory is in fact an informal fallacy. You have committed this fallacy when you suggest that the Holy Fire is fake. Conspiracy theorists tend to overlook the high degree of improbability with large scale conspiracies. You recommended an article about logical fallacies on line, but I would direct readers to some books:

Introduction to Logic, by Lisle;
Come, Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking, by Geisler ans Brooks;
Logically Fallacious: The Ultimate Collection of Over 300 Logical Fallacies, by Bennett.

I read the last two, but not the one by Lisle yet.

If the Holy Fire is a deceptive pious fraud, then it is not even remotely sacred, it is blasphemous. Using holy things to further ones cause is exceedingly blasphemous and impious. You also have yet to explain the numerous independent witnesses, inside and outside the church, who testify to the spontaneous ignition of candles. No pyrotechnics in the world can do that. Also, the Holy Fire existed before pyrotechnics were invented. Finally, Bishop Auxentios (Old Calendarist) personally interviewed the Patriarch of Jerusalem on the phone, and the Patriarch affirmed the legitimacy of the Holy Fire.
 
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The Liturgist

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Appeal to a conspiracy theory is in fact an informal fallacy.

No its not. When you suggested it was the other day I was intrigued by the concept and reread the various works in my library on logical fallacies, and I could find no evidence of it existing, but don’t take my word for it, for that might constitute an appeal to unqualified authority, which is fallacious; rather, look it up yourself in the major texts on logical fallacy.

However, what I think you will find is what I found, that there is no such fallacy, and for good reason: it would be a logical fallacy to say that if someone holds a belief that happens to also be held by adherents of a conspiracy theory, that they are appealing to that conspiracy theory and are therefore wrong, based on the stigma associated with conspiracy theories.

Rather, there are three categories of informal fallacy: the fallacies of ambiguity, the fallacies of presumption (which ad hominem fallacies fall into) and the fallacies of relevance.

I am well versed in all three categories. And I have also read the same books on logic that you are citing, and I would note that merely citing these works are not enough; perhaps you have missed something.

Now, if I were engaged in a bona fide conspiracy theory, or rather, to be more precise, if I were doing what you falsely allege, which I am not, I could be accused of engaging in the formal fallacy of appeal to authority, and the informal fallacies of the furtive fallacy, and the appeal to unqualified authority, the ad hominem (since the more widespread conspiracy theories such as the more advanced Flat Earth arguments generally contain an ad hominem argument as a component in their overall presentation to provide a defense against attempts to rebut them; indeed in the case of the Flat Earth model this is manifested in the form of a separate comorbid conspiracy theory that Flat Earthers will also adhere to, that being of the faked moon landing/faked spaceflight, since astronauts are in the strongest possible position to debunk the Flat Earth model and therefore it is useful if the propagation of the conspiracy theory also debunks astronauts, and other groups, such as airline pilots and the aerospace sector more broadly).

The furtive fallacy is one that is particularly common to conspiracy theories, and is an informal fallacy, and comes the closest to being an “appeal to conspiracy theory.”

Conspiracy theorists tend to overlook the high degree of improbability with large scale conspiracies.

This is true, and is a component to the furtive fallacy, which unlike “appeal to conspiracy theory” is generally recognized.

However, your entire post can be casually described as a red herring, or more formally characterized as a series of non-sequiturs and inadvertant ad hominem attacks, because it is predicated upon a misreading of my remarks.

I have tried to make it as abundantly clear as I can that I do not believe that Holy Fire is a conspiracy, that Holy Fire is “fake”, and other things. I was not aware of the existence of a conspiracy theory concerning Holy Fire which I could have fallaciously appealed to, but even if I were, I would not have done so, because that would constitute the formal fallacy of appeal to authority, and what is more, it would also be inapplicable to my opinion, since I very specifically reject as offensive any suggestion that Holy Fire is some kind of conspiracy theory.

Rather, my position, which I articulated before, is that it is liturgical and iconographic in character, and if the fire initiated and/or distributed by non-supernatural, pyrotechnic means, this would not change the inherent holiness of the liturgy, which is based on the liturgy being an icon of the resurrection of our Lord, something which is conveyed by the Patriarch.

If the Holy Fire is a deceptive pious fraud, then it is not even remotely sacred,

I agree, but I very specifically excluded from my argument the idea that it is a pious fraud.

Rather, my position is that the exact means by which the Holy Fire is initiated and distributed are irrelevant, since the event is best understood according to its iconographic signifigance as a sacramental analogous to Holy Water, and as a component of the liturgy of Holy Saturday.

What is more, I have also readily admitted the possibility that the Holy Fire is supernatural. I have also explained that I regard the other unusual recurrent events of the Holy Land as being entirely miraculous, because unlike Holy Fire, there does not exist an alternate explanation for their cause, nor do the liturgical prayers at, for instance, the Great Blessing of Water on Theophany, lend themselves to an alternative explanation.

What you are attempting to do is to claim that I am advocating for, and believe in, views of the Holy Fire that I reject absolutely, and regard as offensive.

You also have yet to explain the numerous independent witnesses, inside and outside the church, who testify to the spontaneous ignition of candles. No pyrotechnics in the world can do that. Also, the Holy Fire existed before pyrotechnics were invented.

On the contrary, I explained previously how pyrotechnics would enable spontaneous ignition of candles, for example, the use of a small amount of white phosphorus or certain chemical derivatives of white phosphorus that would be safer. Basically, any number of pyrophoric substances could be used. The wicks are by themselves somewhat inflammable, since they are the means by which the natural fuel in the beeswax is oxygenated and consumed, and so if one applies to them one of the many substances that reacts with air, one will obtain a spontaneous ignition. Providing an ablative substance as a shield so that the candles ignite at roughly the same time following exposure to air would logically follow. Additionally, your claim that pyrotechnics did not exist at the time is inaccurate, considering not only the Greek origin of the word but also the sophisticated pyrotechnic capabilities of the Eastern Roman empire, which included incendiary arrows and pots, incendiary grenades, and also the use of chemicals to produce colored flames, among other capabilities, and of course Greek Fire itself, which was first used militarily in 872, which is noteworthy because our first detailed account of Holy Fire involving the spontaneous ignition dates from 870 AD. It is for this reason that I have historically regarded, in the absence of more specific information, the Holy Fire to be a phenomena that consists of fire blessed by the Patriarch and distributed using technologies that were developed contemporaneously with Greek Fire, which represents the most advanced weapons system deployed in the first millenium, and which was itself something that ought to be regarded a providential, divine blessing, since without it the Byzantine Empire would have been overrun by Saracens, Muslim fanatics of the most severe and iconoclastic form, of the Fatimid Caliphate, which included such unpleasant men as the mad caliph Hakim, whose persecution of the Copts in Egypt extended to such baroque forms of cruelty as forcing them to wear heavy chains. The survival of Orthodoxy had become a sure thing by the 15th century, when the surviving citizens of what remained of the Roman Empire made the courageous decision to the decline Western military assistance that was promised if they acceded to the Council of Florence and surrendered their faith, embracing a form of Eastern Rite Catholicism instead.

But the choice of Turkocratia was made at a time in which the continued survival of Orthodoxy elsewhere, for example, in the increasingly powerful grand duchy of Muscovy, and in Georgia and other lands was assured, and at in which missionaries had spread the faith throughout Eastern Europe and into Asia (and later on, Russian Orthodox missionaries led by St. Herman would spread the faith to the Aleutian people of Alaska). The risk posed to the Orthodox religion by assimilation at the hands of Roman Catholicism was greater than the risk posed by accepting Turkocratia, which very likely would have happened anyway; indeed Turkocratia would be an ironic footnote in history rather than the heroic sacrifice we remember it as if the Orthodox people of the Roman Empire had instead surrendered their faith through the uncritical acceptance of the spectacular capitulation that the Council of Florence represented, and it seems likely, based on the experience of other Eastern Catholics, that the former Orthodox of the Byzantine Empire would have found their faith swiftly corrupted with layers upon layers of pointless Latinizations, and with the introduction of Scholastic theology, and it seems likely that the Protestant Reformation would have spread to, or even partially originated in, the former Orthodox lands (considering that the Moravians were the result of an early reformation that happened largely due to the forced conversion of the people of the Czech Lands and Slovakia to Roman Catholicism following the military subjugation of that country by the Austrian Empire).

However, this all being said, it is extremely important to stress that I do not believe that Holy Fire is certainly purely technological in origin, rather, I consider it likely, but am not entirely convinced, because as has been pointed out, there are some aspects of Holy Fire which are unusual and at the very least suggest that if it is pyrotechnics, it is unusually advanced.

Indeed there is also the possiblity that both Holy Fire and the weapons system known as Greek Fire are of partially supernatural origin, or that the means of doing this was, as one Byzantine Emperor wrote, a “gift from God”, which makes sense considering how advanced Greek Fire was compared to any other known pyrophoric weapons system from antiquity; when one reads about it, it comes subjectively across as being a bit like if the British Empire developed an atom bomb in the 19th century.

However, as I said earlier, I really do not want to see an objective analysis of Greek Fire, because if it is of pyrotechnic origin, that could cause confusion among the pious Orthodox who are convinced that it is not, and it could become a means by which the enemies of the faith, such as liberal Protestantism, and the liberal component in Roman Catholicism, and more importantly, the militant atheists and militant Muslims who are almost like two sides of the same coin in terms of their intense hatred towards the Orthodox (whereas the liberal Protestants have a view towards us that is somewhat ambivalent or even in the case of Anglicans, generally favorable, and the Roman Catholics, whether liberal, traditional or moderate, usually come across as being a bit patronizing towards the Orthodox, even in the ecclesiological publications of the Roman church and in their policies towards intercommunion, their offer to provide us with the Eucharist and their official blessing of Catholics receiving the Eucharist from any Orthodox who is willing to give it to them, which relatively few are, but it all comes across as being a bit patronizing.*

*Specifically, the Roman Catholic position towards us and their view of our sacraments as being legitimate, and the various provisions for Catholics giving us the Eucharist and receiving the Eucharist from us, give the impression that they regard “Separated brethren” such as us as being extremely backwards Eastern Christians with valid sacraments who are too stupid and too preoccupied with mystical theology to realize that we are in a state of schism with them, and are thus harmless. One Roman Catholic seminary professor even described us as “looking backwards” whereas the Roman Catholics “looked ahead.” All very patronizing, to a degree where I doubt Roman Catholics are aware of how offensive it actually is, since everything is couched in such charitable language.

Fortunately, the situation has been set up in such a way that given the present state of emergency among traditional Catholics caused by the double whammy of Traditiones Custodes and more recently the abominable Fiducia Supplicans, we are the most likely and plausible alternative church to the Roman Catholic Church, and in going out of their way to characterize us as being ecclesiastically legitimate and merely separated rather than schismatic, the Romans, by toning down their rhetoric towards us from the intentionally hostile and polemical to the merely patronizing, have created a scenario where we can, in complete honesty, present ourselves to Roman Catholics as a church that is neither schismatic nor heretical according to their own leaders, and therefore, a legitimate option for Catholics who cannot in good conscience remain in communion with a Pope who has effectively decided that homosexuality is something to be blessed rather than as an intrinsically disordered sexual perversion. And thus, making full use of the Western Rite Orthodox communities that exist in the Antiochian Orthodox Church and in the Byzantine Rite Orthodox mainstream, which many Catholics also find highly appealing, we should seek to get as many conservative Catholics to join us as possible, since if the Roman Church does not repent of its recent endorsement of homosexuality, along with other errors, there is no other way for reunification to occur. The ball on this issue is firmly in the Pope’s court, since his predecessors excommunicate us, in 1054 (and earlier in the case of our Oriental Orthodox brethren) and then allowed us to be made collateral damage in the crusades, and then targeted directly by Venice in the Fourth Crusade, and so the onus is now on them to restore communion, which they will not do by denying the inherent sinfulness of sodomy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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but nevertheless, according to one source, Elder Ephraim taught that if we marry, we will probably go to hell.
his multiple married spiritual children say otherwise.
 
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his multiple married spiritual children say otherwise.

Indeed. If he really believed that marriage was like buying a first class ticket to Hell, it is unlikely he would even have married spiritual children. But he had quite a number. About a third of the pilgrims at his monastery, including most of the women, in 2015 were either married or widowed, and had either their spouse or their children or both with them.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Indeed. If he really believed that marriage was like buying a first class ticket to Hell, it is unlikely he would even have married spiritual children. But he had quite a number. About a third of the pilgrims at his monastery, including most of the women, in 2015 were either married or widowed, and had either their spouse or their children or both with them.
plus some of the priests who serve at his women’s monasteries are married priests.
 
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How should a newbie explore praying to saints, when it is utterly alien to his theological background?
How do you pick saint to ask for intercession?
A good place to start is read about their life. And if you feel drawn to one saint in particular in your heart for some reason or find something in common with them or you like a particular saint's icon, that's a good indication to ask their intercession. But like was said above, there are certain saints that specialize in certain problems too:
 
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I'm guilty of doubts about Elder Ephraim because of garbage I read about the Nevins case etc. years ago. I now believe it's all just slander and misinformation. Weren't many, many holy people in history misunderstood and accused of evil, even the Lord Himself?

We've gotten off track to the original intent of this post, which is, what are some personal experiences others have had with saints helping them. I myself have had too many to count, it actually boggles my mind how much God and His holy ones have been helping me. "He delighteth in mercy." Micah 7:18

Glory be to God.

Can another thread be started re: Holy Fire debates though and let this one return to its original intent?
 
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Euthymios

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Regarding Scott Nevins, I had the opportunity to spend some time with the monk who was on duty as the night watchman when that incident occurred, and I think it is likely based on the veritable arsenal Nevins had with him before he self-terminated when confronted by the watchman that his original plan would have been to massacre his former brethren, or at least some of them, and potentially even visiting pilgrims. I would also note that this opinion was certainly not spoonfed to me by the watchman, for we did not discuss the incident in question.

At any rate I myself do not put much credence in the opinion of people who drive to monasteries with trucks filled with loaded firearms and then commit self-murder. Frankly, if Elder Ephraim was dining on lobster, it would not surprise me considering they served very excellent shellfish to the visiting pilgrims including myself. Indeed I rather hope he was partaking of food of the same quality he gave to his guests and the other monks. Controversially perhaps I don’t regard the eating of shellfish as some inherently sinful act, whereas, on the other hand, driving to a monastery with a truckload of loaded firearms and shooting oneself is gravely sinful, and a terrible thing to do, in every respect.

People who are excessively ascetic tend to fall back on pride as a means of sustaining their ascetic endeavors, and pride is of such extreme danger for monks that this is a primary theme in the Arena of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and in the Philokalia, and the Desert Fathers, etc.
Who drove to a monastery with a truckload of loaded firearms? The evidence only shows that Scott had a gun. It is very important to be as accurate as possible on line, because rumors and slander can result. As for Elder Ephraim if he did in fact have two refrigerators with imported cheese, and wine daily, this would prove he was a fake. I don't know what to believe. There's no proof that the person who made these claims was even the real Scott Nevins.
 
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Euthymios

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Elder Ephraim believed in marital fasting. Apparently this has been blown out of proportion.
The Church has enough fasts. Why would Elder Ephraim want to improve on the Church calendar of fasts, as if the Holy Spirit didn't get it right the first time? And the very notion of marital fasting implies that the couple is doing something wrong by being married. This is abuse and sounds a bit Gnostic.
 
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prodromos

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The Church has enough fasts. Why would Elder Ephraim want to improve on the Church calendar of fasts, as if the Holy Spirit didn't get it right the first time? And the very notion of marital fasting implies that the couple is doing something wrong by being married. This is abuse and sounds a bit Gnostic.
First we need to know what is meant by "marital fasts" and whether this is simply the Elder instructing married couples to actually hold to the fasts established by the Church or something over and above. I suspect it is the former rather than the latter.
 
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