Miracles, demons and the supernatural

[~Anastasia~]

I guess my view is very influenced by where I come from, I have been in an environment that denies belief in spiritual beings (not in a spiritual reality, though - that I very much believe in). That's not to say that I'm at all sure, it's just hard to wrap my mind around it.

I think I need to look into the subject of demons more, I haven't really paid that much attention to it so far. The church I used to belong to never really spoke about these things, other than to warn against exorcism.

I'm very curious as to which particulars you're referring to, but I understand if you don't want to go into detail. In which case, just ignore this.

I'm the same, mulling things over in my mind; questioning, researching, trying to figure things out. Always praying that I will be led in the right direction. Right now I'm on a journey of discovery that I hope will lead me to that firmer foundation you mention.

I understand. It was mis-speaking on my part, btw, to say spiritual reality instead of spiritual beings. I understood what you meant.

My background usually took one of two approaches in regards to spiritual beings - they usually didn't DENY them but said we weren't to focus on them so it was best to just forget about them, or they had an unhealthy preoccupation with them which led to stuff beyond what I think was good.

Normally demons (and angels) won't ever make themselves known anyway. But they can certainly affect us.

I'll tell you one thing. There was a time in my past, very difficult time for me in terms of what I was experiencing in life anyway. But on top of that, my thoughts were really running away with me. I had repeated negative thoughts about other persons and what they were doing (or not doing) and just thoughts that were making me feel like a huge, dark weight was over my head and physically pushing me down into the ground. It ran from the moment I woke up until I went to sleep. The thing is, I'm not really a negative person. But I didn't recognize what was going on, because my life really WAS "falling apart" as some might see it.

But it suddenly clicked. I think God must have had mercy on me and let me know. Those were not my thoughts. That constant flow through my mind for TWO MONTHS was not even coming from me. I suddenly realized, that was a demonic thing, tormenting me. And with the realization came a really righteous anger. I didn't say any special words, I didn't "exorcise" anything - but I did express my feelings out loud. I prayed and thanked God. And it was gone. My mind was clear, and I could see things as they really were (which they were kind of bad, but I wasn't making them worse and I was able to get a handle on reality and make changes where I was able, and deal with what I couldn't change) and I became myself again.

I wasn't "possessed" ... but I was certainly listening to demonic thoughts, and mistaking them for my own. That lesson has taught me the difference, but it can be subtle, and I have "fallen for it" briefly in the meantime (this was about 15 years ago). Demons try new tricks. But being aware and knowing about some of them is helpful.

OK, that's probably enough. That and other things in my life have convinced me that there ARE spiritual beings. But the most important aspect of that, I think, is being on guard against attacks and tricks by the enemy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input, thank you.

So far not a single person even remotely share the views of the essay writer. I thought that perhaps there would be at least some that would agree on some points seeing how we come from so many different denominations and the fact that this isn't the first time I come across something similar.

That's why I asked in the first place, because I read things like this from time to time and I wonder how much someone can dilute the message of the Gospels and still feel they believe in it.

It may be that we will come to hear more such things. I have listened to several priests on AFR who referred to professors an religious colleges and scholars writing and teaching such things. That essentially deny the core of the faith - even down to the Resurrection - without the essentials, there IS no Christian faith, nothing to have faith in. Jesus becomes a "good moral teacher" and you might as well be Buddhist.

I think it may be a trend. I can hope it won't continue, but suspect it might. But when all of these things are denied ... whatever faith they claim to have is clearly in a "different Gospel". We should stay far, far away from such things.

 

[OcifferPls]

Tbh, the whole topic is somewhat vacuous, and the beliefs outlined in the OP sound like something that a baby christian might believe. I for one wouldn't want to see baby christians treated like demons.

As for the connection with demons, why that connection is being made here is not clear, but when you get down to it, what can a demon do to you? Has anyone been attacked by a ouija board? I've never heard of such things. If demons frighten you, please, stop browsing the net, watching horror films and tv, and stay away from those things for a while. You should start feeling better after a while.

The only demons that I worry about are in people. If you ever feel like murdering someone, definitely, have a look in a mirror because those demons are in you.

 

[RDKirk]

Tbh, the whole topic is somewhat vacuous, and the beliefs outlined in the OP sound like something that a baby christian might believe. I for one wouldn't want to see baby christians treated like demons.

As for the connection with demons, why that connection is being made here is not clear, but when you get down to it, what can a demon do to you? Has anyone been attacked by a ouija board? I've never heard of such things. If demons frighten you, please, stop browsing the net, watching horror films and tv, and stay away from those things for a while. You should start feeling better after a while.

The only demons that I worry about are in people. If you ever feel like murdering someone, definitely, have a look in a mirror because those demons are in you.

I note that in scripture there is very little teaching by Jesus or the Apostles to believers about demons. There is some (and not that much) reporting in scripture of Jesus and apostles encountering someone who is demon possessed, but no direct teaching about demons. Even in terms of being prepared to confront a demon, there is only the scant advice from Jesus for fasting and prayer. The appearance of demons in scripture is pretty much: Identify, dispatch, done.

There are, however, lots and lots of warnings about being led astray by one's own flesh.

 

[isilmë]

Tbh, the whole topic is somewhat vacuous, and the beliefs outlined in the OP sound like something that a baby christian might believe. I for one wouldn't want to see baby christians treated like demons.

As for the connection with demons, why that connection is being made here is not clear, but when you get down to it, what can a demon do to you? Has anyone been attacked by a ouija board? I've never heard of such things. If demons frighten you, please, stop browsing the net, watching horror films and tv, and stay away from those things for a while. You should start feeling better after a while.

The only demons that I worry about are in people. If you ever feel like murdering someone, definitely, have a look in a mirror because those demons are in you.

My main point of the post was never to discuss demons, but the fact that many Christians these days (that I've come across) have the opinions of the essay writer. They've not been new to the faith, I've heard it from theologians, ministers and the like. I just wanted to hear what people thought of these new kind of Christians, that explain away (for lack of a better word) many of the things written about in the Gospels.

I've also said earlier in this thread, since people seem to talk a lot about encountering demons, or being possessed by them, that I have a hard time believing in demons actually existing other than manifestations in the mind. That being said, I respect anyone's opinion and if someone tells me about an event that scared them then I will have sympathy with them. Even if I have a difficult time believing in actual supernatural manifestations of evil, like previously described I'm still sensitive to it.

 

[OcifferPls]

My main point of the post was never to discuss demons, but the fact that many Christians these days (that I've come across) have the opinions of the essay writer. They've not been new to the faith, I've heard it from theologians, ministers and the like. I just wanted to hear what people thought of these new kind of Christians, that explain away (for lack of a better word) many of the things written about in the Gospels.

I've also said earlier in this thread, since people seem to talk a lot about encountering demons, or being possessed by them, that I have a hard time believing in demons actually existing other than manifestations in the mind. That being said, I respect anyone's opinion and if someone tells me about an event that scared them then I will have sympathy with them. Even if I have a difficult time believing in actual supernatural manifestations of evil, like previously described I still am sensitive to it.

To claim that one doesn't believe a claim, shows a lack of faith in the claim. That is all. That some scholars profess these things could show a lack of belief. Others have the difficult task of wearing multiple hats, so to speak, to speak from various perspectives. None of these show evidence of demon possession, in my opinion.

Demon possession, if we're going to go by examples provided, would look something like the demoniac who was afflicted by self-injury, and people who take it further in their hatred of the truth, in an anti-christian sense, etc. It's something I have more experience in than I would like to have had, and I don't talk about it lightly.

Lastly, I have two things to say on the subject. Reality isn't governed by Satan, as if it's the result of a battle between God and Satan. The evil "spirit" which is said to have influenced Saul in 1 Sam 18:10 is probably the same referred to in the gospels as entering Judas, and is said to have come from God, even though Saul is clearly the antagonist in the story and not the hero. Secondly, John writes to those who have "overcome" the "wicked one." The christian walk, as presented by the texts, is not one of seclusion from the world, but one of following the example of Christ who was tested by Satan in the wilderness.

 

[isilmë]

I understand. It was mis-speaking on my part, btw, to say spiritual reality instead of spiritual beings. I understood what you meant.

My background usually took one of two approaches in regards to spiritual beings - they usually didn't DENY them but said we weren't to focus on them so it was best to just forget about them, or they had an unhealthy preoccupation with them which led to stuff beyond what I think was good.

Normally demons (and angels) won't ever make themselves known anyway. But they can certainly affect us.

I'll tell you one thing. There was a time in my past, very difficult time for me in terms of what I was experiencing in life anyway. But on top of that, my thoughts were really running away with me. I had repeated negative thoughts about other persons and what they were doing (or not doing) and just thoughts that were making me feel like a huge, dark weight was over my head and physically pushing me down into the ground. It ran from the moment I woke up until I went to sleep. The thing is, I'm not really a negative person. But I didn't recognize what was going on, because my life really WAS "falling apart" as some might see it.

But it suddenly clicked. I think God must have had mercy on me and let me know. Those were not my thoughts. That constant flow through my mind for TWO MONTHS was not even coming from me. I suddenly realized, that was a demonic thing, tormenting me. And with the realization came a really righteous anger. I didn't say any special words, I didn't "exorcise" anything - but I did express my feelings out loud. I prayed and thanked God. And it was gone. My mind was clear, and I could see things as they really were (which they were kind of bad, but I wasn't making them worse and I was able to get a handle on reality and make changes where I was able, and deal with what I couldn't change) and I became myself again.

I wasn't "possessed" ... but I was certainly listening to demonic thoughts, and mistaking them for my own. That lesson has taught me the difference, but it can be subtle, and I have "fallen for it" briefly in the meantime (this was about 15 years ago). Demons try new tricks. But being aware and knowing about some of them is helpful.

OK, that's probably enough. That and other things in my life have convinced me that there ARE spiritual beings. But the most important aspect of that, I think, is being on guard against attacks and tricks by the enemy.

Thank you for your reply and for telling me more about your experiences.

What you describe about negative thoughts is easier for me to relate to and perhaps the only way I can really grasp the the whole thing. For me, demons are the darkness that can live inside us; negative thoughts being one way for it to manifest itself in our lives (ranging all the way up to really, really evil impulses in some people).

The way to fight those demons (the negative thoughts) would be to shine a light on them and see them for what they are - easier said than done sometimes, it requires us to be self-aware and mindful I would think. I'm glad that you were able to sort it out and be freed from that heavy burden.

I'm tired, so I hope what I wrote made some sense. I'm not really sure.

 

[isilmë]

It may be that we will come to hear more such things. I have listened to several priests on AFR who referred to professors an religious colleges and scholars writing and teaching such things. That essentially deny the core of the faith - even down to the Resurrection - without the essentials, there IS no Christian faith, nothing to have faith in. Jesus becomes a "good moral teacher" and you might as well be Buddhist.

I think it may be a trend. I can hope it won't continue, but suspect it might. But when all of these things are denied ... whatever faith they claim to have is clearly in a "different Gospel". We should stay far, far away from such things.

Yes, I agree totally. Then ones faith becomes something that you have to simply make you feel good and a set of morals only and is that really being a Christian? I don't know.

I see people going in both directions; many grow tired and seek out new communities/denominations with much stronger beliefs in the Faith. Others create new communities around these more 'modern' beliefs.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for your reply and for telling me more about your experiences.

What you describe about negative thoughts is easier for me to relate to and perhaps the only way I can really grasp the the whole thing. For me, demons are the darkness that can live inside us; negative thoughts being one way for it to manifest itself in our lives (ranging all the way up to really, really evil impulses in some people).

The way to fight those demons (the negative thoughts) would be to shine a light on them and see them for what they are - easier said than done sometimes, it requires us to be self-aware and mindful I would think. I'm glad that you were able to sort it out and be freed from that heavy burden.

I'm tired, so I hope what I wrote made some sense. I'm not really sure.

Oh, it's more than just "negative thoughts" but that is the extent of how people generally experience demons.

In fact, I think many who experience something more intense are in fact dealing with medical or psychological issues. But I would not say all.

At that time, I had no understanding of how to deal with such things, really. The fellowship I was involved in had many ideas, but not all of them helpful. There is a great deal of extremely practical advice from Orthodox Saints on the topic.

But I reply at risk of derailing your thread once again. For many, the temptation to discuss either demons or end times are more than they can resist.

As to the "new kind of Christians" ... when you begin to remove things like the Virgin birth, an actual resurrection, and things that are at the very core of the faith, you no longer have the Gospel. And there are scholars promoting this kind of "Christianity" but in truth - it is no Christianity at all.

If Christ did not rise from the dead, we are among the most pitiable ... It destroys the Gospel entirely.

That's the way it is done. Doubt something that's easily doubted, introduce a bit more doubt, wipe away a few more hard-to-believe things, and pretty soon you have a very educated person who smugly believes that his faith is based on "reality" and historic Christianity is just "superstition". That is one step from apostasy, if not already there.

 

[OcifferPls]

If you could explain to me why the Virgin is more important than Christ crucified, I would appreciate it, because it wasn't virginity that brought me into faith in the Gospel.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If you could explain to me why the Virgin is more important than Christ crucified, I would appreciate it, because it wasn't virginity that brought me into faith in the Gospel.

Is that reply to me?

If so, I can't explain that to you, because the Virgin isn't more important than Christ. I don't know anyone who thinks that she is?

 

[stephen583]

Right. There was nothing "rational" about what that family and I experienced on Brookter Street. I spoke to the psychologist at the hospital at the families request in order to corroborate what they had experienced.

The more the doctor heard, the more unsettled he became. Finally, he held up his hand and said, "You guys don't need a psychiatrist, you need a priest" ! "I really can't be of any help to you".

The priest was very helpful, but said a confidential directive handed down years ago, had prohibited common priests from being directly involved in "exorcisms" and "demonic investigations", and establishing a case for Papal approval could take months. It didn't help either that neither I nor the family involved were members of the Catholic Church.

The priest had told me that an "evil" entity might be connected to some occult object, or artifact rather than a person. When I spoke again to the homeowner, he confided his wife had dabbled in the occult as a "Wiccan" in California, and he couldn't guarantee something like that wasn't present somewhere in the house. That's when we discovered the Ouija Board in the closet.

I would strongly advise anyone, there is no such thing as "dabbling" in the occult. Mirror gazing, crystal balls, tarot cards, Ouija boards, voodoo, Santaria, Vampire enthusiast clubs, Goth and Wiccan groups can all invite demonic activity, or worse possession.

 

[isilmë]

Oh, it's more than just "negative thoughts" but that is the extent of how people generally experience demons.

In fact, I think many who experience something more intense are in fact dealing with medical or psychological issues. But I would not say all.

I didn't think you meant that it was only negative thoughts, but that it manifested itself in that way, in this particular case. I would assume that the mind would be the most common place to experience these kind of things; if you want to mess with someone, the mind would be the ideal place to do so.

Yes, I would agree that many who are dealing with something worse are in fact suffering from mental illness. The problem would be to know what's what, I guess.

But I reply at risk of derailing your thread once again. For many, the temptation to discuss either demons or end times are more than they can resist.

I don't mind if you do. I think what you're writing makes a lot of sense, so I want to know what you have to say!

As to the "new kind of Christians" ... when you begin to remove things like the Virgin birth, an actual resurrection, and things that are at the very core of the faith, you no longer have the Gospel. And there are scholars promoting this kind of "Christianity" but in truth - it is no Christianity at all.

If Christ did not rise from the dead, we are among the most pitiable ... It destroys the Gospel entirely.

That's the way it is done. Doubt something that's easily doubted, introduce a bit more doubt, wipe away a few more hard-to-believe things, and pretty soon you have a very educated person who smugly believes that his faith is based on "reality" and historic Christianity is just "superstition". That is one step from apostasy, if not already there.

I agree, there comes a certain point when you have nothing left to really believe in. The question for me would be where I stand on the spectrum, how 'orthodox' my faith is and that is what I'm trying to figure out at the moment.

 

[RBPerry]

I live in California, there are certain area's that have heavy demonic activity, and any mature Christian can feel it when in those areas. My wife and I stopped in Big Sur and walked into a small store, it was filled with demonic symbols, we both felt the presence of evil in that place. We have also experienced demonic activity in our churches. One woman managed to destroy three ministries at separate churches then disappeared. I don't mean physically, she just left the area, but definitely had the jezebel spirit. She also had demonic power and did some amazing things, she had the ability to read people like a book, find their weaknesses and play on them. Why did Jesus cast out demons, he was giving us an example, and we need to pay attention to it. With that said, be very careful about attempting cast out demons, if it isn't your calling, don't mess with it.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I think these ideas have been around for awhile, and have been proposed by at least a few post-modern theologians who call themselves Christian. I haven't read anything by such authors myself, but I've come across mentions of them in some books I've read. My thoughts are that any system of thought that expresses beliefs that demons don't exist is the result of the efforts of demons to put such thoughts into people's minds. There first best strategy is to remain hidden from people altogether so that not many even suspect that there is any problem with their Godless lives.

Our spiritual fathers, who have much experience in resisting these malicious deceivers, have pointed this out in many places within their writings.

I don't get that though: sure demons can pretend they don't exist, but it should be easy for angels to, conversely, show humans that they exist, which would not only help people come to God but defeat the deception of the demons as well.

 

[truefiction1]

I don't get that though: sure demons can pretend they don't exist, but it should be easy for angels to, conversely, show humans that they exist, which would not only help people come to God but defeat the deception of the demons as well.

The spiritual fathers claim that God has made it so that our guardian angels are not perceptible to us in the way that demons are because given our now innate tendency toward spiritual sloth, we would try to rely upon their strength alone and would not struggle sufficiently ourselves to win essential battles. If we are to have any chance, we have to resist evil as if we had no help, even though we actually do, without whom we wouldn't even stand a chance.

 

[CrystalDragon]

The spiritual fathers claim that God has made it so that our guardian angels are not perceptible to us in the way that demons are because given our now innate tendency toward spiritual sloth, we would try to rely upon their strength alone and would not struggle sufficiently ourselves to win essential battles. If we are to have any chance, we have to resist evil as if we had no help, even though we actually do, without whom we wouldn't even stand a chance.

But they could at least give some indication and instruct us like a teacher. When someone teaches you something, you don't just rely on them exclusively to do things, you apply what they teach to your own abilities. It could easily be that way with the angels.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But they could at least give some indication and instruct us like a teacher. When someone teaches you something, you don't just rely on them exclusively to do things, you apply what they teach to your own abilities. It could easily be that way with the angels.

How do you know they don't? Have you ever had a sudden intuition or insight about how to deal with a difficulty? Perhaps they are sometimes the source. If demons can act in such a way, surely holy angels have that ability as well?

The Holy Spirit, or "a holy spirit" (i.e. an angel). The important thing to discern is whether the source of a thought is holy, not necessarily exactly who.

 

[CrystalDragon]

How do you know they don't? Have you ever had a sudden intuition or insight about how to deal with a difficulty? Perhaps they are sometimes the source. If demons can act in such a way, surely holy angels have that ability as well?

The Holy Spirit, or "a holy spirit" (i.e. an angel). The important thing to discern is whether the source of a thought is holy, not necessarily exactly who.

But that's vague and we can't be sure if it's divine intervention or our own insight. If angels are to really show their side is true and most powerful in spiritual warfare it would make sense for them to appear as they did in the Bible.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But that's vague and we can't be sure if it's divine intervention or our own insight. If angels are to really show their side is true and most powerful in spiritual warfare it would make sense for them to appear as they did in the Bible.

That sounds like asking for "proof". I'm not saying you are.

But then again, that's just not how God has chosen to operate things. Truefiction's post made a lot of sense to me. I'm familiar with the concept of spiritual struggle and asceticism, and I'm also familiar with my own weakness ... a strong angel evident on my own behalf would tempt me to struggle even less than I do ...