Miracle of Fatima

[Dylan Michael]

That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it casts doubt on the claim that it was Mary because it's safe to assume Mary would have a better understanding of the Gospel than that.

She understands the gospel. Just not your interpretation of it.

 

[Erose]

And how do they know it's Mary?

How is this consistent with the Bible's command to test all things in light of scripture? Where does the Bible ever tell us to leave discernment to someone else?

Do some research on how the Catholic church tests all things that some claim as miraculous and maybe this would alleviate some of your concerns.

The Catholic church doesn't play when it comes to miracles and the claims of miracles for it knows from 2000 years of experience that false claims about miracles can be very damaging. So the Catholic church vets every miracle that is claimed with a fine tooth comb. They even have a department in the Vatican and procedures layed out on how to properly do the vetting. Also She invites scientist and skeptics to do their own investigations as well. If after a period of time if no plausible natural explanation can be offered for the event then the Church will weigh in on it and proclaim it worthy of belief.

 

[Kepha]

And how do they know it's Mary?

How is this consistent with the Bible's command to test all things in light of scripture? Where does the Bible ever tell us to leave discernment to someone else?

Which Biblical quote are you referring to? Who fixed the mess up about circumcision where there was much confusion going on? Individuals relying upon themselves to interpret correctly or was this done at the first council of Jerusalem?

 

[Erose]

That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it casts doubt on the claim that it was Mary because it's safe to assume Mary would have a better understanding of the Gospel than that.



Why not? Doesn't the Bible say that the Devil often appears as an angel of light in order to deceive people?



Why not?

And even if that's true, then all you've done is to demonstrate why you believe it isn't a demon. You still haven't explained how you know it's Mary.



Since I've offered no "interpretation", how do you know my interpretation is incorrect? And what is it about my interpretation that you believe to be incorrect? And why don't you share what you believe the correct interpretation to be?

Also, could you please show us scripture that backs up her interpretation of the Gospel?

Like anything else you have to follow the words of Jesus when he explained how you know and that is by its fruits.

 

[simonthezealot]

The miracle of the sun was witnessed by many, including scientists. That's surely a 'heavy-hitter' of modern miracles, right?

LOL define miracle...


Just a reminder, I doubt you'd consider the verse below any kind of miracle, at least i hope not...
2 Corinthians 11:14


14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as http://biblia.com/bible/esv/2 Corinthians 11.14-15#footnote0an angel of light.

 

[Rhamiel]

the bible says that Satan can disguises himself as an angel of light... not that he will preach the gospel to people
telling people to trust in Jesus and that Jesus saves people from sin is the Gospel
the vision is from God and the vision told people that it was a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, tthat is how I know it is Mary, she appeared in a way that the children could recognize her as Mary

 

[Albion]

the bible says that Satan can disguises himself as an angel of light... not that he will preach the gospel to people
telling people to trust in Jesus and that Jesus saves people from sin is the Gospel

The warning is about deceiving people into false belief. You wouldn't be saying that you believe Fatima was genuine except for what the personage is supposed to have said--

the vision is from God and the vision told people that it was a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, tthat is how I know it is Mary, she appeared in a way that the children could recognize her as Mary

 

[Rhamiel]

The warning is about deceiving people into false belief. You wouldn't be saying that you believe Fatima was genuine except for what the personage is supposed to have said--

I am saying that since the Vision was giving honor to God and telling people to pray to Jesus and to pray for the forgivness of sins, that is how I know I can trust the vision
if she is honest about Jesus then I trust her to be honest about who she is.
when the Bible says that Satan will take on the image of an angel of light, that means the devil will take on a beautiful image
now if there was a vision of an angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God, then we would know this was a trick of the enemy, but with Fatima we have the Blessed Virgin Mary telling us to trust Jesus, this is something i think no devil would be able to bring itself to do, devils lack any grace, more evil then the most evil person alive, and all those who say that Jesus is Lord are moved by the Holy Spirit, and the devils have nothing holy in them, so a devil can not trick people by first preaching the Gospel and then tricking them, they would never be able to preach the gospel in the first place

 

[Publius]

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was "O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"

That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it casts doubt on the claim that it was Mary because it's safe to assume Mary would have a better understanding of the Gospel than that.

a demon would not even be able to bring itself to instruct people to ask God for mercy

Why not? Doesn't the Bible say that the Devil often appears as an angel of light in order to deceive people?

the vision told people to ask Jesus Himself for forgivness of sins a demon could not bring itself to tell someone to do that

Why not?

And even if that's true, then all you've done is to demonstrate why you believe it isn't a demon. You still haven't explained how you know it's Mary.

the bible says that Satan can disguises himself as an angel of light... not that he will preach the gospel to people

But what you describe "Mary" as saying isn't the Gospel. In fact, it contradicts the Gospel.

And why wouldn't Satan preach the Gospel to people? After all, what better way to deceive people than to convince them that he is speaking for God?

the vision is from God

How do you know?

and the vision told people that it was a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, tthat is how I know it is Mary

So, you know it was a vision from God because it was the "Blessed Virgin Mary" and you know it was the "Blessed Virgin Mary" because it was a vision from God? Isn't that circular reasoning?

she appeared in a way that the children could recognize her as Mary

And how would the children know what Mary looked like?

I am saying that since the Vision was giving honor to God and telling people to pray to Jesus and to pray for the forgivness of sins, that is how I know I can trust the vision

So then, you're just trusting because of its appearance? Doesn't the Bible tell us to test spirits?

now if there was a vision of an angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God, then we would know this was a trick of the enemy

How do you know? Aren't there several examples in scripture of God sending deceiving spirits?

but with Fatima we have the [alleged] Blessed Virgin Mary telling us to trust Jesus, this is something i think no devil would be able to bring itself to do

Again, why not? What better way to deceive someone than to convince them that you were sent by God?

devils lack any grace, more evil then the most evil person alive, and all those who say that Jesus is Lord are moved by the Holy Spirit, and the devils have nothing holy in them, so a devil can not trick people by first preaching the Gospel and then tricking them, they would never be able to preach the gospel in the first place

Are you familiar with Matthew 8:29? Why wouldn't they be able to preach the Gospel? Doesn't the Bible say that men preach the Gospel even though they're not Christ's?

She understands the gospel. Just not your interpretation of it.

Since I've offered no "interpretation", how do you know my interpretation is incorrect? And what is it about my interpretation that you believe to be incorrect? And why don't you share what you believe the correct interpretation to be?

Also, could you please show us scripture that backs up her interpretation of the Gospel?

Do some research on how the Catholic church tests all things that some claim as miraculous and maybe this would alleviate some of your concerns.

So, you've come to a discussion forum just to tell people you don't want to discuss anything?

If the Catholics here can't defend their own beliefs, then why should I believe that the ones in charge of teaching them their doctrine are a reliable source?

The Catholic church doesn't play when it comes to miracles and the claims of miracles for it knows from 2000 years of experience that false claims about miracles can be very damaging. So the Catholic church vets every miracle that is claimed with a fine tooth comb. They even have a department in the Vatican and procedures layed out on how to properly do the vetting. Also She invites scientist and skeptics to do their own investigations as well. If after a period of time if no plausible natural explanation can be offered for the event then the Church will weigh in on it and proclaim it worthy of belief.

So, how does this answer the question?

Like anything else you have to follow the words of Jesus when he explained how you know and that is by its fruits.

Which specific words of Jesus and which fruits are you referring to? Which words of Jesus and which fruit do you see that indicate to you that it is Mary?

 

[Albion]

I am saying that since the Vision was giving honor to God and telling people to pray to Jesus and to pray for the forgivness of sins, that is how I know I can trust the vision

All right. What persuades you is what persuades you, and that's all there is to that. I would expect a bit more caution, but if that's your answer, OK.

now if there was a vision of an angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God, then we would know this was a trick

That wouldn't be much of a trick, though, would it? I have serious doubts about believing any apparition to be an "angel of light" if he's going to preach against God.

with Fatima we have the Blessed Virgin Mary telling us to trust Jesus, this is something i think no devil be able to bring itself to do, devils lack any grace, more evil then the most evil person alive, and all those who say that Jesus is Lord are moved by the Holy Spirit, and the devils have nothing holy in them, so a devil can not trick people by first preaching the Gospel and then tricking them, they would never be able to preach the gospel in the first place

You underestimate Satan, me thinks.

 

[Kepha]

But what you describe "Mary" as saying isn't the Gospel. In fact, it contradicts the Gospel.

There you go. You see, you're asking questions based on how you 'feel' Mother Mary should speak truth based on your own personal understanding of Scripture. We say that the Church weighs all She says, against Church teachings.

So then, you're just trusting because of its appearance? Doesn't the Bible tell us to test spirits?

The Church has tested the Vision.

How do you know? Aren't there several examples in scripture of God sending deceiving spirits?

God sent deceiving spirits?

Are you familiar with Matthew 8:29? Why wouldn't they be able to preach the Gospel? Doesn't the Bible say that men preach the Gospel even though they're not Christ's?

Where does it say that the men who preached the Gospel were not from God? I need to read the verse for myself.

That wouldn't be much of a trick, though, would it? I have serious doubts about believing any apparition to be an "angel of light" if he's going to preach against God.

Why do you think that the Mother of God never once questioned the Angel that appeared to Her if He belonged to God or not? Was She wrong to not have tested Him? Was every OT Saint who encountered an Angel wrong to have never questioned any Angel sent from Heaven? Could it be that there is actually a difference going on here? Between the false angel of light character with zero Grace and a true Angel sent from Heaven where you can feel the Grace of God radiate from Him?

 

[Publius]

There you go. You see, you're asking questions based on how you 'feel' Mother Mary should speak truth based on your own personal understanding of Scripture.

As I was saying, this is a very common tactic among the Catholics here. It's a form of "poisoning the well". Just characterize anything anyone who disagrees with you says as "your interpretation" and imply that their interpretation is incorrect.

The problem with it is that you do so when no interpretation was even offered and you never follow up by stating why you believe the "interpretation" was incorrect or what the correct interpretation is.

While you guys may feel that you've sucessfully silenced any disagreement, all you've really done is to make yourselves appear to be unable and unwilling to look at your beliefs critically or open minded enough to discuss things that may not agree with you. What it really shows is a lack of confidence in your own beliefs.

The second problem is that the Gospel is not subjective. It does not differ from person to person.

We say that the Church weighs all She says, against Church teachings.

It's interesting that you say they weigh all she says against "Church teachings" and not "they weigh all she says by scripture".

The Church has tested the Vision.

Using what criteria?

God sent deceiving spirits?

1 Kings 22:22
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Judges 9:23
1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 18:10
1 Samuel 19:9

There are several more examples, but I'm sure you get the point.

 

[Albion]

Why do you think that the Mother of God never once questioned the Angel that appeared to Her if He belonged to God or not? Was She wrong to not have tested Him?

The angel did NOT preach against God, did he? That's the theory I answered to --

angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God

.

 

[Kepha]

As I was saying, this is a very common tactic among the Catholics here. It's a form of "poisoning the well". Just characterize anything anyone who disagrees with you says as "your interpretation" and imply that their interpretation is incorrect.

A) You didn't say anything but throw out one big accusation about it contradicting the Gospel. Put a little more effort into it next time and maybe I will put more into mine.

B) It's the truth though isn't it? Why is your interpretation better than mine?

The problem with it is that you do so when no interpretation was even offered and you never follow up by stating why you believe the "interpretation" was incorrect or what the correct interpretation is.

Why make a claim without backing it up?

The second problem is that the Gospel is not subjective. It does not differ from person to person.

Even the definition of what the Gospel is can be in dispute.

It's interesting that you say they weigh all she says against "Church teachings" and not "they weigh all she says by scripture".

As I asked before, I need the Scriptural quotes you're using so I may read them for myself.

1 Kings 22:22
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Judges 9:23
1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 18:10
1 Samuel 19:9

There are several more examples, but I'm sure you get the point.

God "allowing" deceiving spirits to punish the disobediant and unbelieving? First we must believe we are disobediant and unbelieving. We don't so we aren't afraid of being deceived by these spirits.

 

[Kepha]

The angel did NOT preach against God, did he? That's the theory I answered to --
.

So what is the Fatima message that was being preached against God?

 

[Publius]

Put a little more effort into it next time and maybe I will put more into mine.

OK. I see the tone is getting a little aggressive. I'll leave you alone to calm down now and I'll check back in with you later.

 

[Albion]

So what is the Fatima message that was being preached against God?

You have it backwards.

 

[Kepha]

You have it backwards.

So what is the God message being preached against Fatima?

 

[Erose]

So, you've come to a discussion forum just to tell people you don't want to discuss anything?

No what I am recommending to you is to do a little research on the subject before going off half-cocked. Nothing wrong with giving advice.

If the Catholics here can't defend their own beliefs, then why should I believe that the ones in charge of teaching them their doctrine are a reliable source?

Actually it has been defended a great deal on this thread. But like every thing else when it comes to God and His works you can believe them or not. That is that free will God gave us.

Which specific words of Jesus and which fruits are you referring to? Which words of Jesus and which fruit do you see that indicate to you that it is Mary?

The fruits are the conversions and the refocusing of people upon the divine in a world at the time was proclaiming that God is dead. It is a warning to all of us that hell is real and don't forget that. It is also makes the point that there are consequences for our sins and she does it in a very similar way as the OT prophets did. She also tells us we need to fly away from sin back to God before we reap those consequences.

Now you can debate whether or not those children seen anyway and that all of the things seen during this time from the dancing sun and the burning horizon where just mass hallucinations or some form of natural event that we don't understand, but saying it was a deceiving spirit is really plumb ludicrous. Satan is not going to tell anyone to flee sin or to pray for sinners or to turn to God or to meditate upon the life of Jesus. That as Jesus says produces a house divided and Satan is way too smart for that.

 

[Erose]

Originally Posted by Rhamiel

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was "O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"
​

Response by Publius:

That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it casts doubt on the claim that it was Mary because it's safe to assume Mary would have a better understanding of the Gospel than that.

​

Just curious in what way is that prayer counter to the Gospel?