Miracle of Fatima

[Albion]

So God isn't eternal?

Meaning what with reference to praying that a person who has died will have repented before his death??

 

[Albion]

And there is the key to why it is good to pray for all dead for we just do not know what the state of their soul was at their death.

But you said you were praying for him to have ALREADY repented. In that case, your prayers would be too late.

So you are saying not to defend our faith?

What I am saying is what I said. Please do not make up propositions and then ask me if I meant X. No, I meant what I wrote.

For example when I used the word "novena" the response you gave me was one that sounded as if you did not know that a "novena" was a form of prayer.

So it's a problem that YOU have. OK, but I would suggest that you just ask me to restate my point without the gratuitous comment that there's some lack of understanding on my part.

I don't feel like I am talking down to anyone, but just trying to answer the questions proposed in a matter that hopefully will convey my thoughts.

Very well. I'll just ignore the inappropriate coments and questions.

But the problem is I don't know what you know. I only know what you wrote. As far as I know you didn't know what a novena is or that in 2 Mac has the only explicit teaching on praying for the dead. I would assume that most non-Catholic/Orthodox would not know.

Then stop making unwarranted assumptions in print.

 

[Erose]

Then stop making unwarranted assumptions in print.

So I should assume at all times that everyone on this forum knows everything that the Catholic Church teaches or understands every single term or phrase used?

 

[Erose]

Meaning what with reference to praying that a person who has died will have repented before his death??

Meaning I pray to God that those I pray for will find salvation. How He does that is up to Him. God isn't bound by time as we are.

 

[Albion]

Meaning I pray to God that those I pray for will find salvation. How He does that is up to Him.

So it's just a general petition to God to be merciful to anyone. You can appreciate that this isn't the way it was originally worded by you, but thanks for the explanation.

 

[Albion]

So I should assume at all times that everyone on this forum knows everything that the Catholic Church teaches or understands every single term or phrase used?

Since you ask, my answer is that you shouldn't presume that they don't know information that is commonly understood.

 

[Erose]

Since you ask, my answer is that you shouldn't presume that they don't know information that is commonly understood.

Which side would be safer Albion? Is the concept of a novena commonly understood by all non-Catholics? Maybe among Anglicans but do you think novena is a commonly understood term in Evangelical circles? Do you think that the true understanding of Purgatory is commonly understood among non-Catholics?

 

[Albion]

Which side would be safer Albion? Is the concept of a novena commonly understood by all non-Catholics? Maybe among Anglicans but do you think novena is a commonly understood term in Evangelical circles? Do you think that the true understanding of Purgatory is commonly understood among non-Catholics?

You asked for my opinion about assuming or not, and I gave it to you. I don't see that it in any way makes life any more difficult for you.

 

[nephilimiyr]

What about the miracle of the sun witnessed by thousands?

UFO

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think the key is intent. Liturgical prayer is important for it is the act of the whole community. I pray the Divine Office daily and there is repetition there, even though I do it privately I know I am offering it up in communion with all those that are also praying the office.

It does get boring at times and I need to keep my focus but I have learned that when I get away from this discipline my spiritual life suffers and suffers greatly.

Also let us not forget that God gave us the Our Father to pray along with the Psalms and other prayers and canticles found throughout Scripture.

Novena is not just a prayer but also a discipline in that I am going to offer this prayer no matter what for 9 days or however long for the sake of my intention.

It is a bit of a stretch to believe that all novenas are the act of the whole community. Although novenas are often performed in the context of the church, they are also done privately. If you construe a private novena as an act of the whole community along the lines of praying an Our Father privately, yet with unseen multitudes (the invisible church?) then you probably consider the rest of us separated brethren as part of your community because we pray the same prayers and sing the same Psalms.

Doing a rote task may have some side benefits on a personal level, but Christ Himself condemned the practice of saying prayers for the sake of saying prayers, as I pointed out in my previous post.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't see how you can equate that. We do not know how long the purging process lasts. So we pray for them. The ancient Jews and even modern Jews pray for their dead for one year. But no one can know what length is required. We just know that it is good for us to pray for them.

So God isn't eternal?

The bottom line to the purging process seems to be whether or not it involves torture and time. Some Catholics have posited that it involves neither because of the love of God and because God is, as you have pointed out, beyond the limits of time. Do you believe that purgation entails torture and/or time?

As for your second response, you have now fallen headlong into the realm of silliness. What is to say I cannot pray that God will retroactively change history and convert a tyrant (of the German persuasion, perhaps) into a Saint?

 

[Erose]

It is a bit of a stretch to believe that all novenas are the act of the whole community. Although novenas are often performed in the context of the church, they are also done privately. If you construe a private novena as an act of the whole community along the lines of praying an Our Father privately, yet with unseen multitudes (the invisible church?)

I was speaking of liturgical prayer and not necessarily of what would be a novena. Liturgical prayer i.e. Mass and the Divine Office is a community prayer even if in the case of the Divine Office I can pray it privately, it is still tied to all those who are praying that specific prayer because the intent of those praying it are the same.

Novenas are different but are similar to liturgical prayer because of the use of a set prayer. Usually though Novenas are done privately or with a group of believers as in the case of praying for vocations, the healing of a neighbor, or something similar. Anyway the intent does matter as you have pointed out.

then you probably consider the rest of us separated brethren as part of your community because we pray the same prayers and sing the same Psalms.

From what I understand there are some Protestants that do pray the divine office and in that case the answer would be yes.

Doing a rote task may have some side benefits on a personal level, but Christ Himself condemned the practice of saying prayers for the sake of saying prayers, as I pointed out in my previous post.

You are correct. Saying prayers just to say them so you can say to yourself that you are holy and right with the Lord is wrong. The intent is important. What is the intent? If it is to make you feel better about yourself then you are acting like a Pharisee. But if you are doing them to grow in Love of God and/or neighbor or for the sake of a neighbor then the intent is true.

Good points 7bs.

 

[Erose]

The bottom line to the purging process seems to be whether or not it involves torture and time. Some Catholics have posited that it involves neither because of the love of God and because God is, as you have pointed out, beyond the limits of time. Do you believe that purgation entails torture and/or time?

Actually the bottom line of the purging process is to become fully acceptable to the Lord. It says in Scripture nothing unclean can come into the presence of God and live.

The teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory is relatively simple. Even though those who die in the state of venial sin (sin that does not lead to death) or still has sin to make up for (as in the case of David) do not merit eternal death but are not clean enough to enter God's presence. As such these brethren must be purged of what impurities they have left upon their soul before that can enter into that Diven Presence. Sacred Scripture alludes to some type of spiritual fire as being the method of purgation. We don't know the time it takes if there is an explicit time frame. We also know from 2 Mac that our prayers and sacrifices have a positive effect upon our brethren enduring the purging. So we pray for them.

As for your second response, you have now fallen headlong into the realm of silliness. What is to say I cannot pray that God will retroactively change history and convert a tyrant (of the German persuasion, perhaps) into a Saint?

Maybe it is silliness 7bs. I have a few friends and relatives that passed away, who where not Christian when they passed. I pray with a hope that God moved their souls to repentence before their last breath left them. I pray daily that I will see them one day in Heaven. Maybe I won't but maybe I will. But I will continue to do so.

There is one passage in Scripture that gives me some hope found in 1 Cor 15: [26] And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith, [27] All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him. [28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. [29] Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? [30] Why also are we in danger every hour?

I don't know what this practice entailed, but there seems to be an effort to do something for those that have fallen asleep. I also don't see St. Paul condemning the practice.

Anyway 7bs it may sound silly, but I will continue to pray my prayer of hope.

 

[Albion]

Actually the bottom line of the purging process is to become fully acceptable to the Lord. It says in Scripture nothing unclean can come into the presence of God and live.

That's why Christ came, died for us, and rose again--to take away ouir sins. There's no reason to think that he judges as unclean those who have been saved by his blood.

Sacred Scripture alludes to some type of spiritual fire as being the method of purgation. We don't know the time it takes if there is an explicit time frame.

The world will end in fire, following which judgment will occur.

We also know from 2 Mac that our prayers and sacrifices have a positive effect upon our brethren enduring the purging. So we pray for them.

Maccabees teaches only that this was a practice of some Jews at that time.

 

[Publius]

Three times I've asked the very simple question, "How do you know it was Mary". And each time, the Catholics here have completely ignored it.

Catholics, before you start citing other events or quoting ECF or bringing up this experience or that experience, don't you think you should at least be able to state for sure whether or not its Mary and how you know it's Mary?

 

[Nephi]

Three times I've asked the very simple question, "How do you know it was Mary". And each time, the Catholics here have completely ignored it.

Catholics, before you start citing other events or quoting ECF or bringing up this experience or that experience, don't you think you should at least be able to state for sure whether or not its Mary and how you know it's Mary?

This is indeed the most important question.

 

[Kepha]

Three times I've asked the very simple question, "How do you know it was Mary". And each time, the Catholics here have completely ignored it.

Catholics, before you start citing other events or quoting ECF or bringing up this experience or that experience, don't you think you should at least be able to state for sure whether or not its Mary and how you know it's Mary?

Because we leave the Prudential judgment of the events that took place to the Church.

 

[Publius]

Because we leave the Prudential judgment of the events that took place to the Church.

And how do they know it's Mary?

How is this consistent with the Bible's command to test all things in light of scripture? Where does the Bible ever tell us to leave discernment to someone else?

 

[Rhamiel]

And how do they know it's Mary?

How is this consistent with the Bible's command to test all things in light of scripture? Where does the Bible ever tell us to leave discernment to someone else?

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was
"O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"
a demon would not even be able to bring itself to instruct people to ask God for mercy, not some nameless "higher power" or new age teacher, no the vision told people to ask Jesus Himself for forgivness of sins
a demon could not bring itself to tell someone to do that

 

[Publius]

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was
"O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"

That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it casts doubt on the claim that it was Mary because it's safe to assume Mary would have a better understanding of the Gospel than that.

a demon would not even be able to bring itself to instruct people to ask God for mercy

Why not? Doesn't the Bible say that the Devil often appears as an angel of light in order to deceive people?

the vision told people to ask Jesus Himself for forgivness of sins
a demon could not bring itself to tell someone to do that

Why not?

And even if that's true, then all you've done is to demonstrate why you believe it isn't a demon. You still haven't explained how you know it's Mary.

the bible says that Satan can disguises himself as an angel of light... not that he will preach the gospel to people

But what you describe "Mary" as saying isn't the Gospel. In fact, it contradicts the Gospel.

And why wouldn't Satan preach the Gospel to people? After all, what better way to deceive people than to convince them that he is speaking for God?

the vision is from God

How do you know?

and the vision told people that it was a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, tthat is how I know it is Mary

So, you know it was a vision from God because it was the "Blessed Virgin Mary" and you know it was the "Blessed Virgin Mary" because it was a vision from God? Isn't that circular reasoning?

she appeared in a way that the children could recognize her as Mary

And how would the children know what Mary looked like?

I am saying that since the Vision was giving honor to God and telling people to pray to Jesus and to pray for the forgivness of sins, that is how I know I can trust the vision

So then, you're just trusting because of its appearance? Doesn't the Bible tell us to test spirits?

now if there was a vision of an angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God, then we would know this was a trick of the enemy

How do you know? Aren't there several examples in scripture of God sending deceiving spirits?

but with Fatima we have the [alleged] Blessed Virgin Mary telling us to trust Jesus, this is something i think no devil would be able to bring itself to do

Again, why not? What better way to deceive someone than to convince them that you were sent by God?

devils lack any grace, more evil then the most evil person alive, and all those who say that Jesus is Lord are moved by the Holy Spirit, and the devils have nothing holy in them, so a devil can not trick people by first preaching the Gospel and then tricking them, they would never be able to preach the gospel in the first place

Are you familiar with Matthew 8:29? Why wouldn't they be able to preach the Gospel? Doesn't the Bible say that men preach the Gospel even though they're not Christ's?

She understands the gospel. Just not your interpretation of it.

Since I've offered no "interpretation", how do you know my interpretation is incorrect? And what is it about my interpretation that you believe to be incorrect? And why don't you share what you believe the correct interpretation to be?

Also, could you please show us scripture that backs up her interpretation of the Gospel?

Do some research on how the Catholic church tests all things that some claim as miraculous and maybe this would alleviate some of your concerns.

So, you've come to a discussion forum just to tell people you don't want to discuss anything?

If the Catholics here can't defend their own beliefs, then why should I believe that the ones in charge of teaching them their doctrine are a reliable source?

The Catholic church doesn't play when it comes to miracles and the claims of miracles for it knows from 2000 years of experience that false claims about miracles can be very damaging. So the Catholic church vets every miracle that is claimed with a fine tooth comb. They even have a department in the Vatican and procedures layed out on how to properly do the vetting. Also She invites scientist and skeptics to do their own investigations as well. If after a period of time if no plausible natural explanation can be offered for the event then the Church will weigh in on it and proclaim it worthy of belief.

So, how does this answer the question?

Like anything else you have to follow the words of Jesus when he explained how you know and that is by its fruits.

Which specific words of Jesus and which fruits are you referring to? Which words of Jesus and which fruit do you see that indicate to you that it is Mary?