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i thought only 3 witnessed it...That's impossibly large and vague at once. What does 'next only to her son" mean? I'd say it doesn't prove a thing about the unBiblical practice of praying to the dead. Beyond that, what are we supposed to interpret "and so on" as indicating?
Depends on what you mean by "very high place" doesn't it? So if you think Mary is the co-redeemer of the world, the fourth person of the Trinity, was taken bodily to heaven although the Bible doesn't say anything about that, or that she was not born a normal human like all others, you are right. We don't make doctrine out of legend and folklore. But if you mean something else, you'll have to say it.
Fatima in itself seems only to prove that a lot of people witnessed an unusual phenomenon. It did NOT deliver any critical message to mankind, although that is what some churches say happened. It didn't make much of any change to the people who supposedly saw Mary. It didn't change world events. so???
curious....I think that this is a sad point that so many Christians don't have a sense for the miraculous. I remember when I was a Pentecostal back almost 20 years ago how much apprehension non-Pentecostals Protestants had for Pentecostals. And that what was occurring in these Pentecostal churches had to be of the devil for God just didn't work that way any longer. Personnally I think that this is one of the fruits of the Pentecostal movement in that it is opening the eyes of many Protestants that miraculous still happens. They are learning what Catholics have known for 2000 years and that is God is with us and He still does miracles for our benefit.
i thought only 3 witnessed it...
the rest saw them witnessing something.
i thought only 3 witnessed it...
the rest saw them witnessing something.
Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?
Discuss.
No, no, no, no.
The children saw Our Lady. She told them that the sun would dance. Hundreds of thousands of people saw the sun dance, shoot bright colors and spin around. Many people that were soaking wet from the rain were instantly dried.
From everything I've read this seems to be pretty much undeniable. People miles from the main body (people watching from their houses, for example) even saw the spectacle. Now exactly "what" people saw the sun do differed, and I even read that some people present saw nothing.
No, no, no, no.
The children saw Our Lady.
She told them that the sun would dance. Hundreds of thousands of people saw the sun dance, shoot bright colors and spin around. Many people that were soaking wet from the rain were instantly dried.
Josephus witnessed some rather bizarre events before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70But the sun did not actually dance, because those with the most detailed accounts of the sun appearing to do something unusual described it as having fallen from the sky, swooping, and etc.-- which would have affected the world's weather dramatically. Nothing, however, happened. If, therefore, the miracle of Fatima was that people thought they saw something, what did this miracle accomplish? And how does that verify anything about Catholic teaching concerning Mary?
The first "sign" that is shown happening concerns a meteor resembling a sword. Surely a sight like this would have been seen my a multitude of people
1. "A meteor, resembling a sword, [7] hung over Jerusalem during one whole year."
This could not be a comet, for it was stationary, and was visible for twelve successive months. A sword too, though a fit emblem for destruction, but ill represents a comet.
But the sun did not actually dance, because those with the most detailed accounts of the sun appearing to do something unusual described it as having fallen from the sky, swooping, and etc.-- which would have affected the world's weather dramatically. Nothing, however, happened. If, therefore, the miracle of Fatima was that people thought they saw something, what did this miracle accomplish? And how does that verify anything about Catholic teaching concerning Mary?
I do not believe that it was truly Mary, I just concede that it is indeed supernatural.There are many unexplained phenomena in the world, and they aren't miracles. The question here--aside from "was it Mary?"--still is "How could this be said to confirm any Catholic teaching about Mary?" Not unless it had some impact other than making the superstitious more superstitious IMO.
The theology espoused by it is troubling, from my perspective as an EO, and so I'm not sure how I feel about it other than the fact I reject it being an authentic apparition of the Theotokos.In your opinion what do you make of it. Just curious.
Makes sense. I think though that one must be careful in evaluating what was actually said by Mary (or ...) and how people interpret it or spin it. There seems to be some websites that try to spin what was said to mean something that was not the original intent. In other words trying to make more out of it and what was really there.The theology espoused by it is troubling, from my perspective as an EO, and so I'm not sure how I feel about it other than the fact I reject it being an authentic apparition of the Theotokos.
I'm more inclined to accept apparitions that don't deal with much other than encouraging conversion, requesting the building of a church/monastery, and comforting the faithful. Examples of this are aplenty, such as Zeitun, the more recent apparitions in Egypt lately, and maybe even Guadalupe.
Yeah. Some of the Fatima-devotees are so extreme that they're practically borderline schismatic with Rome, and accuse the Vatican of lying about consecrating Russia, the Third Secret, etc. They end up being pretty apocalyptic because of Fatima's end-time-like prophecies, and dedicate all of their time spreading the Fatima message.Makes sense. I think though that one must be careful in evaluating what was actually said by Mary (or ...) and how people interpret it or spin it. There seems to be some websites that try to spin what was said to mean something that was not the original intent. In other words trying to make more out of it and what was really there.
"Dance" is just an attempt to describe what the people saw.
Sure. That happens all the time.The fact is that, while the sun did not literally "move" and "come to earth," etc. - people did in fact see what they describe as such, up to several miles away. The distance between witnesses rules out the idea of any mass hysteria, mass delusions, etc. It meant that people genuinely saw the sun do, or appear to do, something.
It fulfilled a prophecy
No it doesn't. All it confirms is that these people were predisposed to think that Mary was in the business of apparitions.and if one believes that it is indeed Mary, then it does confirm a whole lot.
The theology espoused by it is troubling, from my perspective as an EO, and so I'm not sure how I feel about it other than the fact I reject it being an authentic apparition of the Theotokos.
I'm more inclined to accept apparitions that don't deal with much other than encouraging conversion, requesting the building of a church/monastery, and comforting the faithful. Examples of this are aplenty, such as Zeitun, the more recent apparitions in Egypt lately, and maybe even Guadalupe.
I agree that there have been many and not just Catholics that have went stupid on this conspiracy stuff and even when Pope John Paul II revealed the last of the prophecies there were many conspiracy buffs cried foul because they thought they already assumed what was really in it, and when it wasn't they just assumed the Vatican was hiding the truth.Yeah. Some of the Fatima-devotees are so extreme that they're practically borderline schismatic with Rome, and accuse the Vatican of lying about consecrating Russia, the Third Secret, etc. They end up being pretty apocalyptic because of Fatima's end-time-like prophecies, and dedicate all of their time spreading the Fatima message.
Anything that would cause a shift in beliefs from what was held prior to said apparition is definitely out of the question for me. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)
So we as Christians shouldn't pray for non-Christians and their salvation?I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them. What an awful interpretation of God's justice! For all that we are taught in his Holy Word about having faith, changing your life, trusting Jesus....no, if you don't have family or contacts to pull strings for you, in a theological sense, and that God judges each man's heart on the basis of what OTHER people have done for you with God, none of that matters. It's repulsive.
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