Mindful meditation. Is there a place for it with Christians?

[Akita Suggagaki]

flesh, are worldly , carnal, and of no help.

Are you familiar with other religions at all?

Quite often the austerity is mind blowing and unworldly. Misdirected, but certainly not "worldly" and "carnal".

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What we think or say or post about it is here today and gone tomorrow.

What God and His Word Says about this is forever. (not good for false gods nor for idolators)

I agree. I just think that too much credit and blame is given to other religions.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

God and His Word and Jesus do not say : have other gods as you like and choose.

He says plainly have no other gods.

And who here is promoting or worshipping other gods? Buddhism doesn't even have a god. and I don't promote it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

From Wikipedia

Mindfulness derives from sati, a significant element of Hindu and Buddhist traditions, and is based on Zen, Vipassanā, and Tibetan meditation techniques.

 

[Carl Emerson]

And who here is promoting or worshipping other gods? Buddhism doesn't even have a god. and I don't promote it.

"Siddhartha Gautama was the first person to reach this state of enlightenment and was, and is still today, known as the Buddha. Buddhists do not believe in any kind of deity or god, although there are supernatural figures who can help or hinder people on the path towards enlightenment."

However the 'supernatural figures' are what Paul refers to as Pagan gods and are demonic in nature.

 

[dlamberth]

As I'm reading through this thread, I can't get over the feeling that Mindfulness is not understood very much here. Mindfulness is simply being aware of what's going on around a person with out judgment or concepts attached. It's not big deal as every human being has moments of Mindfulness. We as human beings can't escape those moments of pure awareness. Have you ever been in a car accident where you were totally aware of what was happening? Some say like it was in slow motion? Something else for the spiritual minded, when we practice Mindfulness in meditation, it's great training for those drawn to a deeper, clearer awareness of the presence of Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

As I'm reading through this thread, I can't get over the feeling that Mindfulness is not understood very much here. Mindfulness is simply being aware of what's going on around a person with out judgment or concepts attached. It's not big deal as every human being has moments of Mindfulness. We as human beings can't escape those moments of pure awareness. Have you ever been in a car accident where you were totally aware of what was happening? Some say like it was in slow motion? Something else for the spiritual minded, when we practice Mindfulness in meditation, it's great training for those drawn to a deeper, clearer awareness of the presence of Christ.

Maybe the word mindfulness is a problem as it is being used by those who are purveyors of Eastern Philosophy...

Such teachers assume the lotus position in respect for their spiritual leaders who do not preach the Gospel.

Sounds to me then to be a dangerous discipline from that viewpoint.

If there is a Christian meditation we can practice which is biblical then great - but please don't call it 'mindfulness' as that is potentually confusing.

Spiritual infiltration can be very subtle so we should stick to what the bible teaches.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Mindfulness is simply being aware of what's going on around a person with out judgment or concepts attached.

Thanks for mentioning that because as you do I recall that "judgement" is in fact a key difference. In Nepsis or Biblical watchfulness there is certainly a judgment. That is why one is keeping watch, to guard against and reject negative, sinful thoughts and feelings. In the Buddhist tradition there is no judgement, only a detachment until the thought or feeling passes.

So that IS a very important difference that slipped my mind.

I guess I was not mindful of it,

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

biblegateway.com › passage › ?search=Romans 8:6-11&version=NIV

Romans 8:6-11 NIV - The mind governed by the flesh is - Bible Gateway​

Romans 8:6-11. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

biblehub.com › romans › 8-7.htm

Romans 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not ...​

Because the mind of the flesh is hatred toward God,

for it is not subject to the law of God because it cannot be.

who is talking about the flesh?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think also that some take issue with Apophatic theology - Wikipedia and Hesychasm - Wikipedia
that may perhaps be aspects of both Christianity and Buddhism.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think also that some take issue with Apophatic theology - Wikipedia and Hesychasm - Wikipedia
that may perhaps be aspects of both Christianity and Buddhism.

Akita
You may be interested to know that my Prof at university was Dr. Koyama

Kosuke Koyama, 79, an Ecumenical Theologian, Dies (Published 2009)

Dr. Koyama was internationally known for using arresting metaphors drawn from his experience as a missionary to convey an influential vision of Christianity as compatible with Asian traditions.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Akita
You may be interested to know that my Prof at university was Dr. Koyama

Kosuke Koyama, 79, an Ecumenical Theologian, Dies (Published 2009)

Dr. Koyama was internationally known for using arresting metaphors drawn from his experience as a missionary to convey an influential vision of Christianity as compatible with Asian traditions.

www.nytimes.com

Thanks for making me aware of him. It must have been fascinating to be in class with him where you can ask questions and dialogue.

Water Buffalo Theology is now on my reading list....maybe

 

[dlamberth]

Maybe the word mindfulness is a problem as it is being used by those who are purveyors of Eastern Philosophy...

When looking at those moments of mindfulness, I'm unable to think of a more descriptive word than "mindfulness". It exactly describes the state of one's awareness at those moments in time.

Such teachers assume the lotus position in respect for their spiritual leaders who do not preach the Gospel.

Just being present and aware of the other person one is talking to is mindfulness.
No lotus position required.
It's what people do in our everyday life.

The Bible doesn't say it outright, but when in prayer when a person is giving their full attention to God with all of their heart and with all of their soul and with all of their mind and with all of their strength, that is mindfulness in practice.

Sounds to me then to be a dangerous discipline from that viewpoint.

I'm aware of the need to protect one's religious beliefs, but I wonder sometimes how much religious discrimination gets into the way of that deeper experience of Christ. But maybe we're coming from the direction of differing experiences of Christ in our inner spiritual life. I don't know where to go with that possibility.

If there is a Christian meditation we can practice which is biblical then great - but please don't call it 'mindfulness' as that is potentually confusing.

Spiritual infiltration can be very subtle so we should stick to what the bible teaches.

If when being mindfully aware of the presence of Christ is spiritual infiltration, I really don't get that kind trajectory at all. And reject it completely,

 

[Carl Emerson]

When looking at those moments of mindfulness, I'm unable to think of a more descriptive word than "mindfulness". It exactly describes the state of one's awareness at those moments in time.

Just being present and aware of the other person one is talking to is mindfulness.
No lotus position required.
It's what people do in our everyday life.

The Bible doesn't say it outright, but when in prayer when a person is giving their full attention to God with all of their heart and with all of their soul and with all of their mind and with all of their strength, that is mindfulness in practice.

I'm aware of the need to protect one's religious beliefs, but I wonder sometimes how much religious discrimination gets into the way of that deeper experience of Christ. But maybe we're coming from the direction of differing experiences of Christ in our inner spiritual life. I don't know where to go with that possibility.

If when being mindfully aware of the presence of Christ is spiritual infiltration, I really don't get that kind trajectory at all. And reject it completely,

Paul teaches about being in the Spirit... he doesn't teach about being in the mind.

Please put our minds at rest about the 'mindfulness' being celebrated here...

Jon Kabat-Zinn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Paul teaches about being in the Spirit... he doesn't teach about being in the mind.

Please put our minds at rest about the 'mindfulness' being celebrated here...

Jon Kabat-Zinn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now that is interesting that even JKZ has stated that his beliefs growing up were a fusion of science and art. Although he has been "trained in Buddhism and espouses its principles", he rejects the label of "Buddhist", preferring to "apply mindfulness within a scientific rather than a religious frame".

So he "espouses its principles without its "religious frame" Ok? Whatever that means.


So this discussion has been good for me and helped me to nail down at least three important distinctions between "Mindfulness", whether scientific or Buddhist and Bible based Watchfulness.

1. Judgment: In Biblical Watchfulness, waiting, sobriety, vigilance, one is keeping watch, to guard against and reject negative, sinful thoughts and feelings. In the "Mindfulness" tradition there is no judgement, only a detachment until the thought or feeling passes. But there is a letting go that might be similar to rejecting.

2 Motivation or goal: In Biblical Watchfulness the greater context is the presence of a loving faithful person of God with whom we have a relationship and seek deeper union. In "Mindfulness" there is no such personal greater context. It is all one's self seeking peace or enlightenment or insight.

3 Apophatic experience: In Biblical Watchfulness we acknowledge that God is an infinite mystery beyond our mental images. We can let the mind rest believing that we can find silent stillness in God's presence listening for the whisper. (1 Kings 19:11–13)
In "Mindfulness" the mind can become still but I am not sure how it is to be interpreted. Insight? Relaxation? Clarity? Feeling of Emptiness?

 

[dlamberth]

In "Mindfulness" the mind can become still but I am not sure how it is to be interpreted. Insight? Relaxation? Clarity? Feeling of Emptiness?

I'd say "presence".

 

[Carl Emerson]

Now that is interesting that even JKZ has stated that his beliefs growing up were a fusion of science and art. Although he has been "trained in Buddhism and espouses its principles", he rejects the label of "Buddhist", preferring to "apply mindfulness within a scientific rather than a religious frame".

So he "espouses its principles without its "religious frame" Ok? Whatever that means.


So this discussion has been good for me and helped me to nail down at least three important distinctions between "Mindfulness", whether scientific or Buddhist and Bible based Watchfulness.

1. Judgment: In Biblical Watchfulness, waiting, sobriety, vigilance, one is keeping watch, to guard against and reject negative, sinful thoughts and feelings. In the "Mindfulness" tradition there is no judgement, only a detachment until the thought or feeling passes. But there is a letting go that might be similar to rejecting.

2 Motivation or goal: In Biblical Watchfulness the greater context is the presence of a loving faithful person of God with whom we have a relationship and seek deeper union. In "Mindfulness" there is no such personal greater context. It is all one's self seeking peace or enlightenment or insight.

3 Apophatic experience: In Biblical Watchfulness we acknowledge that God is an infinite mystery beyond our mental images. We can let the mind rest believing that we can find silent stillness in God's presence listening for the whisper. (1 Kings 19:11–13)
In "Mindfulness" the mind can become still but I am not sure how it is to be interpreted. Insight? Relaxation? Clarity? Feeling of Emptiness?

Points 1&2 totally agree...

Point 3 the difference is the indwelling presence.

This is a communion not attainable by a scientific or Buddhist approach.

Our experience of the peace that passes all understanding is not available beyond the Christian faith which gifts the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

We are warned not to seek the peace of pagan beliefs...

Ezra 9:12
12 So now do not give your daughters to their sons nor take their daughters to your sons, and never seek their peace or their prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever.’

Deut 23
6 You shall never seek their peace or their prosperity all your days.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Point 3 the difference is the indwelling presence.

Yes, of The Biblical God.

dlamberth says, "presence"

But of what or who? That is the BIG question.

 

[dlamberth]

Paul teaches about being in the Spirit... he doesn't teach about being in the mind.

If one is caught up in their thinking mind, as most of us are, that's the kind of thing that gets into the way of being in Spirit. We can't do both, that is being in Spirit and being in a thinking mind. It just doesn't work. That's where the practice of mindfulness comes into play which helps a person be fully aware of Spirit because they aren't all wrapped up in their mental thoughts. At the same time, there is a place in this world where a thinking mind is a must. I can't imagine driving down the highway at 70 miles an hour fully engulfed in Spirit and carried away by it.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, of The Biblical God.

dlamberth says, "presence"

But of what or who? That is the BIG question.

Paul says it clear and plain...

1 Cor 10
20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.