Mindful meditation. Is there a place for it with Christians?

[Akita Suggagaki]

Some or many schools actually train their students to "empty their mind" !
Very dangerous.
Especially with a lion prowling about, ready to pounce when given such an opening!

Empty the mind of discursive thoughts, not awareness. Otherwise you would be talking about stupor.
There is no danger in peace and tranquility. In fact, most trouble comes from unwanted and unhelpful thoughts.
The lion tempts us to say and do things that a sober and alert mind would reject.
What other danger do you have in mind?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Sometimes people quote Luke 11:24-26 and Matthew 12:43-45 as a warning not to be mindful, not to "empty the mind".

“When an unclean spirit goes out of someone, it roams through arid regions searching for rest but, finding none, it says, ‘I shall return to my home from which I came.' But upon returning, it finds it swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and brings back seven other spirits more wicked than itself who move in and dwell there, and the last condition of that person is worse than the first.”

So then are we not to have hearts and minds that are "clean" and "in order"? I don't think so.

In Matthew the context is Jesus addressing the evil generation demanding a sign.
In Luke it is in the context of "But if it is by the finger of God that drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." and "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

"alert" and "sober minded" "nepsate" and "gregoresate" We are most alert when we are not distracted, when we listen carefully and attend, have a pure clean and ordered mind. Silent, still, calm, but alert and ready. Does that sound empty? Empty of our daily earthly thoughts, yes. But not empty of awareness. we listen best when we are not talking. the same goes for inner talk.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What happens to the "clean and in order" - when empty?

, "seven other spirits more wicked " move in ! That's happened more than anyone realizes today !

It sound to me like many people equate "clean and in order" with "empty" as if it is a bad and dangerous state.

Jesus does not warn us about being "clean and in order". He warns us about being wicked and being against him.

How do we recognize evil spirits? By their words and actions.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Jesus says that in the topic passage - when demons are kicked out,
if the "house" is left empty, 7 worse come back and the person is worse than before.....
I agree with Jesus.

But not because the house is clean and in order. Do you think we need dirty and disorder?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Is it not obvious ? The house either has Jesus abiding, or is left empty and demons come back to it.
Jesus says there is no in-between... no neutral...

You think "Clean and in order" means without Jesus?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Jesus is the ray of light. Our soul is the window. The smudges are all our thoughts and images.




"A ray of sunlight shining on a smudgy window is unable to illumine that window completely and transform it into its own light. It could do this if the window were cleaned and polished. The less the film and stain are wiped away, the less the window will be illumined; and the cleaner the window is, the brighter will be its illumination.

The extent of illumination is not dependent on the ray of sunlight but on the window. If the window is totally clean and pure, the sunlight will so transform and illumine it that to all appearances the window will be identical with the ray of sunlight and shine just as the sun’s ray.

Although obviously the nature of the window is distinct from that of the sun’s ray (even if the two seem identical), we can assert that the window is the ray or light of the sun by participation. The soul on which the divine light of God’s being is ever shining, or better, in which it is ever dwelling by nature, is like this window, as we have affirmed.

A soul makes room for God by wiping away all the smudges and smears of creatures."

Saint John of the Cross​

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, II.5.6–7

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Empty means without Jesus, as Jesus says in the parable of the topic.

Jesus does not say that at all.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Matthew 12:43-45​

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition​

But when the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, it roams through dry [arid] places in search of rest, but it does not find any.
Then it says, I will go back to my house from which I came out. And when it arrives, it finds the place

unoccupied, swept, put in order, and decorated.

Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and make their home there.

And the last condition of that man becomes worse than the first.

So also shall it be with this wicked generation.

Note the evil spirit decided to come back before it knew it was clean.

Besides, "empty" is not accurate. As I have said, the soul is attentive, alert, watchful and aware of the presence of Jesus but quiet and at peace.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That was simpy stated and obvious.
When the evil spirits find the house(person) empty, they get it back and it is worse than before.
Only thinking about Jesus, or only thinking about anything, does not prevent the demons getting the person back, and the person ending up worse than before.

Thought protects us from demons? Really?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Thought protects us from demons? Really?

You lost me now.

But back to the OP. "Mindfulness", as the name implies, is not about emptiness but fullness...fullness of awareness of the present moment.
Is God present also or not?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You lost me now.

But back to the OP. "Mindfulness", as the name implies, is not about emptiness but fullness...fullness of awareness of the present moment.
Is God present also or not?

But it is important to add that "Mindfulness Meditation" while it may be a good tool, originates in the context of a religion that does not believe in God and probably views Jesus as a Buddha or something. That changes the ultimate goal.

But I do think it, 'Mindfulness", is as much a lifestyle as it is a sit down practice. As a mindful lifestyle it is akin to Christian life of watchfulness, vigilance, alertness, sobriety. But again, with a different intention and goal.

Mindfulness is about attention to right here and now.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting - in my journey into eastern religion I was so mindful of the present that the future and the past became irrelevant. This turned out to be very dangerous and destructive. It destroyed my true identity as a child of the promise.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

the future and the past became irrelevant.

That is a rather extreme distortion. Don't you think?

 

[Carl Emerson]

That is a rather extreme distortion. Don't you think?

Distortion of Truth - YES...

And that is the issue - that is where Buddhism leads - to illusion (Maya) and disconnection from reality.

So I consider 'mindfulness' potentially dangerous - Christian meditation is fine but so called 'mindfulness' that focuses on the present without regard for the future or the past destroys one's true identity, destroys Hope, denies our true spiritual inheritance.

It took years for me to come out of this and regain a solid understanding of who I was., and to deal with the spirits that drove me there.

Far better to meditate on His Word as we are taught.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Distortion of Truth - YES...

And that is the issue - that is where Buddhism leads - to illusion (Maya) and disconnection from reality.

So I consider 'mindfulness' potentially dangerous - Christian meditation is fine but so called 'mindfulness' that focuses on the present without regard for the future or the past destroys one's true identity, destroys Hope, denies our true spiritual inheritance.

It took years for me to come out of this and regain a solid understanding of who I was., and to deal with the spirits that drove me there.

Far better to meditate on His Word as we are taught.

I am not a Buddhist proponent nor apologist. But I do think there is plenty of scripture support for vigilance, watchfulness, and sobriety which are tantamount to mindfulness. And we do need plenty of it in the present moment where we exist 100% of the time, though in the context of past and future.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I do think there is plenty of scripture support for vigilance, watchfulness, and sobriety which are tantamount to mindfulness.

I think definition is the issue here...

Where did the concept of 'Mindfulness' come from?

Is it the same as the biblical attitudes you list ?

Mindfulness originated from ancient eastern and Buddhist philosophy and dates back around 2500 years. The concept of mindfulness has been inspired by many, and Jon Kabat-Zinn and his colleagues at the University of Massachusetts have been influential in establishing it in the western world.

Jon Kabat-Zinn has been trained in Buddhism and espouses its principles...

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think definition is the issue here...

Where did the concept of 'Mindfulness' come from?

Is it the same as the biblical attitudes you list ?

Mindfulness originated from ancient eastern and Buddhist philosophy and dates back around 2500 years. The concept of mindfulness has been inspired by many, and Jon Kabat-Zinn and his colleagues at the University of Massachusetts have been influential in establishing it in the western world.

Jon Kabat-Zinn has been trained in Buddhism and espouses its principles...

I challenge the assertion that mindfulness "originated" in Buddhism.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Marcus Aurelius, emperor of the Roman Empire (161-180 AD) whose private philosophical diary the Meditations survives, writes that ‘each man only lives in this present instant…all the rest either has been lived or remains in uncertainty’

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

"the same" , no, cannot be.
The world and the flesh might accommodate such ideas,
but Jesus does not.

How is it different that the Biblical attitudes?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I challenge the assertion that mindfulness "originated" in Buddhism.

Buddhism seems to get all the credit ( or with you guys, all the blame).

Do a Bible word search with "watch" , "wait", "alert", "sober"


Nepsis Nepsis - Wikipedia


Colossians 4:2
Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful.

Psalm 5:3 O Lord, in the morning You will hear my voice; in the morning I will direct my prayer to You, and I will watch expectantly.

Matthew 26:38 Then He said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death. Wait here, and keep watch with Me.”

Matthew 26:41 41 Watch and pray that you enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

2 John 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward

Or wait
Psalm 37:7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;

Psalm 37:34 Wait for the Lord and keep His way, And He will exalt you to inherit the land;



Psalm 59:9 O my strength, I will wait on You; for God is my refuge.

Psalm 62:5 My soul, wait silently for God, for my hope is from Him.

Proverbs 4:23 Watch over your heart with all diligence, For from it flow the springs of life.

Psalm 25:5 Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day.

Psalm 25:21 Let integrity and uprightness preserve me, For I wait for You

Psalm 27:14 Wait for the Lord; Be strong and let your heart take courage; Yes, wait for the Lord.

Matthew 24:42
“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Mark 8:15
“Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”
Mark 13:37
What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

Luke 21:36
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

1 Peter 1:13
Therefore, with minds that are alert (gird up the loins of your mind) and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray.

1 Peter 5:8
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.