Millions of Years- a salvation issue?

[lismore]

Interesting article from AIG, thought you might like it:

https://answersingenesis.org/theory...of-years/millions-of-yearsare-souls-at-stake/

Any comments?

(If you can't open the link let me know and I'll post the text)

 

[Bluelion]

Interesting article from AIG, thought you might like it:

https://answersingenesis.org/theory...of-years/millions-of-yearsare-souls-at-stake/

Any comments?

(If you can't open the link let me know and I'll post the text)

It makes interesting points but uses logic, those who mix doctrine of men with god doctrine throw out logic. Logic says God knows more than man. So I don't think logic will reach the old earth people.

The truth is people of Old Earth is a mixing of faith, faith in God and faith in man(science) If you speak to these people long enough you will find they have more faith in man than God, and they preach as fact even though it is all theory and unproven, they will not admit it is a best guess by man, They put there faith in men. It is by our words we know what is in the heart God teaches us, and I think old earth and evolutionist have major faith issues.

i would suggest that if you Don't take God word as fact and with out error you can in no way believe in Jesus as the son of God in your heart sense Jesus is The Word.

Parts of the Bible warn about adding or taking away from that book. I think that applies to all the Bible and who ever adds to God word such as evolution or old earth is committing a great sin.

Just my thoughts.

 

[lismore]

One of the points in the article I agree with that adding outside influences to scripture weakens it's authority and is a slippery slope to younger generations ditching the bible and Christianity altogether. Just what we have seen in this country.

Only those churches which uphold biblical authority are not in terminal decline.

 

[Bluelion]

One of the points in the article I agree with that adding outside influences to scripture weakens it's authority and is a slippery slope to younger generations ditching the bible and Christianity altogether. Just what we have seen in this country.

Only those churches which uphold biblical authority are not in terminal decline.

Let me ask you. adding things like evolution or millions or now it is billions of years to the Bible how is that any different then the queen james Bible, which takes out things which are a sin like men sleeping with men and women with women. If we allow this how long until the Bible is completely rewritten and called the world Bible which will preach doctrines of the world and no longer be Gods word?

 

[lismore]

Let me ask you. adding things like evolution or millions or now it is billions of years to the Bible how is that any different then the queen james Bible, which takes out things which are a sin like men sleeping with men and women with women. If we allow this how long until the Bible is completely rewritten and called the world Bible which will preach doctrines of the world and no longer be Gods word?

That's a good point.

Some churches are accepting evolution and same sex marriage, both because of moving away from biblical authority. Universalism is another doctrine that slips in when the foundations are removed.

IMO we are in the last days and must be really on our guard to walk closely with God and honour him. Moving away from biblical authority is madness, even more so now!

 

[Yekcidmij]

One cannot get the idea of millions of years from the Bible. This idea comes from outside of Scripture. When a Christian adds millions of years to the Bible and reinterprets the days of creation or tries to fit this extra time into the first verse in Genesis or a supposed gap between the first and second verses, he is allowing fallible man to be in authority over God’s Word.

So I assert that such compromise (which I believe it really is) is setting an example for others that fallible man can take ideas outside of Scripture and reinterpret God’s Word to fit these in. Ultimately, accepting this view means God’s Word is not the final authority and is not without error.

My counter contention would be that you don't get 6,000 years from the bible either. There is no historical claim as to the age of the earth in the bible.

So I would assert that the author of this article is taking ideas not found in scripture and trying to fit them into the bible.

 

[OzSpen]

My counter contention would be that you don't get 6,000 years from the bible either. There is no historical claim as to the age of the earth in the bible.

So I would assert that the author of this article is taking ideas not found in scripture and trying to fit them into the bible.

I also support what you are here affirming. Because of the incomplete genealogies, it is impossible to reach 6,000 years as the age of the earth.

This idea comes from Archbishop Ussher of Armagh, Ireland in about the year 1650. Ussher died in 1656. See HERE.

The 6,000 idea of the age of the earth is an extra-biblical idea. Where in the Bible does it place a date on the age of the earth/universe?

Oz

 

[miamited]

Hi Lismore,

My mind causes me pause in such claims.

First, what do the Scriptures really mean when they say things like 'believe' and 'faith'.

Second, if Jesus was telling us the truth about the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, then why isn't what I believe as truth the same as what someone else believes as truth.

Thirdly, we are warned that '666' is the number of man. Much prayer and study over this has given me an understanding that God's warning is that there are going to be some who believe man and some who believe God.

Finally, my understanding of the creation of this realm, yes we live in a created realm, was that God made all of this physical realm in which we live for the soul purpose of creating man. So, I am naturally led to ask myself, why? Why would God, if my understanding of His purpose is correct, have the universe sit around for billions of years without man, for whom it was created?

But I must say that the strongest of the four reasons for me is the issue of '666'. God has caused to be written to His created all that He has done, and despite what some may claim, does seem to have laid out a fairly strong timeline of when these things were done. Man, however, through his studies and great knowledge, has 'proven' that how we might interpret God's revelation in the simplest and most literal sense cannot possibly be true. So, who am I to believe? God or man?

I mean, for me, God defines each day as encompassing an evening and a morning. Ages aren't now, nor ever have been defined in such a way. If God didn't want me to understand the days of creation as fairly regular days, why then would He even put that in there? I mean, God is wiser than I am! Surely He would know the firestorm of misunderstanding that such prose would create. Or, did God use that prose for the very purpose for which it seems to create? An obvious juxtaposition to the wisdom of man. Did God cause the Holy Spirit to encourage the writer of the Genesis account to write it just as it is because it does clarify for the believer this ages long argument between what man says is the 'truth' and what God says is the truth?

If God did cause the account to be written just as it is to identify for us the truth of the creation, then, if the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth, and it is the truth, why don't some believe it? Is it at all possible that those who don't believe it, if it is in fact the truth, don't have the Holy Spirit guiding them into all truth? I realize that such a position causes consternation among those who do believe in the long earth ages of creation, but the question must be asked. If the Holy Spirit's job in the born again believer is as Jesus said, to lead us into all truth,...

If, on the other hand, the earth and the universe are ages old, then those of us who believe as I do must not have the Holy Spirit doing his job in them. And again I find myself looking at the '666' issue. The ages long creation seems to be only the teaching of men. I honestly can't find it supported, although some can surely claim some ambiguity in what the Scriptures say about the creation, but I don't think anyone can honestly lay out any piece of Scripture that firmly supports an ages old creation. Yet, there seems to be quite a lot of the Scripture that pretty firmly supports the young creation account.

I mean, six days, evening and morning, then counting off the genealogies of Adam and repeating the six day pattern a couple of other times in the Scriptures. So, which is it? God or man?

Finally, God's word speaks of a great deception. A deception so great that if God Himself doesn't cut short the last days even the elect might be deceived. Is that great deception some religion? Let's face it, there have been false religions even in the times of the Patriarchs. Is that great deception that the earth revolves around the sun? Now, I will start off by saying that this is probably the weakest of the arguments that I am making. The end has not come yet and there may well be some greater deception to arise yet upon the earth that none of us are yet aware of, but...

In this day and this time, as I look among the body of believers and knowing that only one account can be true. I mean the earth cannot both be some 6,000 years old and some millions of years old. The earth cannot have been created first and then the sun, moon and stars placed in space beyond and the sun, moon and stars placed in the great beyond and then the earth created. Only one account can be the truth. So, one or the other camp is deceived and this specific and particular deception, if I am correct, is taught in our universities and public schools and churches and homes worldwide. No false religion or demigod of man is so accepted by such a great number of men as the wisdom and knowledge of man that tells us that the opening claims of God's word cannot possibly be true. We must sure be misunderstanding what God has written to us and we must diligently search God's word until we can make it align with man's wisdom and knowledge. Could that be the greatest deception that if God doesn't cut short the last days might even deceive the elect?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Bluelion]

That's a good point.

Some churches are accepting evolution and same sex marriage, both because of moving away from biblical authority. Universalism is another doctrine that slips in when the foundations are removed.

IMO we are in the last days and must be really on our guard to walk closely with God and honour him. Moving away from biblical authority is madness, even more so now!

I think we are in the last days. I see God's word being polluted with so much junk one day it will be hard to know the truth. pray for your brother and sisters in the this world and pray for the world it needs it.

 

[Bluelion]

My counter contention would be that you don't get 6,000 years from the bible either. There is no historical claim as to the age of the earth in the bible.

So I would assert that the author of this article is taking ideas not found in scripture and trying to fit them into the bible.

6,000 years no, Adam lived 930 and so did many others, but it would be nice if some would trace the bloodlines from Jesus back to Adam and then from Jesus to today so we could get a round about age, maybe I'll start this i'm off for the summer why not, could be fun. I'll try and post when I have something together in like a month.

 

[lismore]

Hello all.

Thanks for your replies re:the 6,000 years thing.

However the big difference I would say is that Bishop Usher, calculating genealogies and such like, his starting point was the scriptures. He came to his conclusion through study of the scriptures.

As the article says, has anyone ever looked at the bible and calculated millions of years or people evolving from apes? These have been brought into the church completely because of outside pressure, they are not from the bible. You could never study the scriptures and come to those conclusions.

God Bless

 

[lismore]

I think we are in the last days. I see God's word being polluted with so much junk one day it will be hard to know the truth. pray for your brother and sisters in the this world and pray for the world it needs it.

True. But the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it! So long as even a handful of God's people are present and remain faithful, then the truth shall not die!

 

[Bluelion]

Hi Lismore,

My mind causes me pause in such claims.

First, what do the Scriptures really mean when they say things like 'believe' and 'faith'.

Second, if Jesus was telling us the truth about the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, then why isn't what I believe as truth the same as what someone else believes as truth.

Thirdly, we are warned that '666' is the number of man. Much prayer and study over this has given me an understanding that God's warning is that there are going to be some who believe man and some who believe God.

Finally, my understanding of the creation of this realm, yes we live in a created realm, was that God made all of this physical realm in which we live for the soul purpose of creating man. So, I am naturally led to ask myself, why? Why would God, if my understanding of His purpose is correct, have the universe sit around for billions of years without man, for whom it was created?

But I must say that the strongest of the four reasons for me is the issue of '666'. God has caused to be written to His created all that He has done, and despite what some may claim, does seem to have laid out a fairly strong timeline of when these things were done. Man, however, through his studies and great knowledge, has 'proven' that how we might interpret God's revelation in the simplest and most literal sense cannot possibly be true. So, who am I to believe? God or man?

I mean, for me, God defines each day as encompassing an evening and a morning. Ages aren't now, nor ever have been defined in such a way. If God didn't want me to understand the days of creation as fairly regular days, why then would He even put that in there? I mean, God is wiser than I am! Surely He would know the firestorm of misunderstanding that such prose would create. Or, did God use that prose for the very purpose for which it seems to create? An obvious juxtaposition to the wisdom of man. Did God cause the Holy Spirit to encourage the writer of the Genesis account to write it just as it is because it does clarify for the believer this ages long argument between what man says is the 'truth' and what God says is the truth?

If God did cause the account to be written just as it is to identify for us the truth of the creation, then, if the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth, and it is the truth, why don't some believe it? Is it at all possible that those who don't believe it, if it is in fact the truth, don't have the Holy Spirit guiding them into all truth? I realize that such a position causes consternation among those who do believe in the long earth ages of creation, but the question must be asked. If the Holy Spirit's job in the born again believer is as Jesus said, to lead us into all truth,...

If, on the other hand, the earth and the universe are ages old, then those of us who believe as I do must not have the Holy Spirit doing his job in them. And again I find myself looking at the '666' issue. The ages long creation seems to be only the teaching of men. I honestly can't find it supported, although some can surely claim some ambiguity in what the Scriptures say about the creation, but I don't think anyone can honestly lay out any piece of Scripture that firmly supports an ages old creation. Yet, there seems to be quite a lot of the Scripture that pretty firmly supports the young creation account.

I mean, six days, evening and morning, then counting off the genealogies of Adam and repeating the six day pattern a couple of other times in the Scriptures. So, which is it? God or man?

Finally, God's word speaks of a great deception. A deception so great that if God Himself doesn't cut short the last days even the elect might be deceived. Is that great deception some religion? Let's face it, there have been false religions even in the times of the Patriarchs. Is that great deception that the earth revolves around the sun? Now, I will start off by saying that this is probably the weakest of the arguments that I am making. The end has not come yet and there may well be some greater deception to arise yet upon the earth that none of us are yet aware of, but...

In this day and this time, as I look among the body of believers and knowing that only one account can be true. I mean the earth cannot both be some 6,000 years old and some millions of years old. The earth cannot have been created first and then the sun, moon and stars placed in space beyond and the sun, moon and stars placed in the great beyond and then the earth created. Only one account can be the truth. So, one or the other camp is deceived and this specific and particular deception, if I am correct, is taught in our universities and public schools and churches and homes worldwide. No false religion or demigod of man is so accepted by such a great number of men as the wisdom and knowledge of man that tells us that the opening claims of God's word cannot possibly be true. We must sure be misunderstanding what God has written to us and we must diligently search God's word until we can make it align with man's wisdom and knowledge. Could that be the greatest deception that if God doesn't cut short the last days might even deceive the elect?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

One thing the days are cut short because there would be no more flesh I believe it says left on earth meaning all of man kind would be wiped out, which I think points to a nuclear war. He says the deception is so great it would deceive God's elect if it were possible. It is not possible.

Let me ask you How does God say to come to him? unless you humble your self like these little ones you shall not enter Heaven. I take that as we are to approach god like a child. Let me ask you How would a child read the account of creation? I think there in lies the answer.

 

[Bluelion]

True. But the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it! So long as even a handful of God's people are present and remain faithful, then the truth shall not die!

Jesus said as long as I am in the world i am the light of the world. He still is the light of the world. He is in the hearts of all his children, His light shines from us for the world. We children of God need prayer though, many, maybe now more than ever, because everything we do is being looked at. We are being accused for ever fault, we need to become like Jesus and fast, with out fault, or as much as possible any way.

Peace and Love Brother, great thread and good points
blu

 

[OzSpen]

6,000 years no, Adam lived 930 and so did many others, but it would be nice if some would trace the bloodlines from Jesus back to Adam and then from Jesus to today so we could get a round about age, maybe I'll start this i'm off for the summer why not, could be fun. I'll try and post when I have something together in like a month.

So from where are you going to obtain the evidence of ALL of the bloodline from Jesus back to Adam? Or, from Jesus back to Noah? Where are the genealogical records that you will examine?

 

[Bluelion]

So from where are you going to obtain the evidence of ALL of the bloodline from Jesus back to Adam? Or, from Jesus back to Noah? Where are the genealogical records that you will examine?

Only the Bible i already started I just finished with Noah, did you know the flood took place 2182 years after Adam sinned i would guess? That is Biblical fact. I will post all my research in a thread when I am done, already got a second project trying to figure out which nations belong to which of the 3 sons of Noah, more specifically Romans and Egyptians. It has been great fun

 

[OzSpen]

Only the Bible i already started I just finished with Noah, did you know the flood took place 2182 years after Adam sinned i would guess? That is Biblical fact. I will post all my research in a thread when I am done, already got a second project trying to figure out which nations belong to which of the 3 sons of Noah, more specifically Romans and Egyptians. It has been great fun

There are many who have gone before you who have investigated the genealogies of the Bible. Some will agree with you and some will disagree. One thing we are sure of: Nowhere in the Bible does it state the exact age of the universe.

For a view that opposes where you are heading, see 'The Genesis Genealogies: Are They Complete?'

Why are you trying to do the maths of the genealogies again when others have pointed out the gaps in the records?

Why do you use the language, 'i would guess'? That doesn't sound too definitive for you to say that 'That is Biblical fact'.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Only the Bible i already started I just finished with Noah, did you know the flood took place 2182 years after Adam sinned i would guess? That is Biblical fact.

From the Masoretic Text perhaps. What about the Septuagint, Samaritan Penteteuch, and Targums? Do those have the same numbers/genealogies? To save the trouble - no they don't.

The genealogies in Genesis are not to be taken as a historical sort of claim. They are rather to be understood as theological statements that highlight specific things important in Israel's history.

 

[lismore]

From the Masoretic Text perhaps. What about the Septuagint, Samaritan Penteteuch, and Targums? Do those have the same numbers? (No).

The genealogies in Genesis are not to be taken as a historical sort of claim. They are rather to be understood as theological statements that highlight specific things important in Israel's history.

Hello

But the bottom line is I think that, even given differences of opinions over genealogies, you couldn't look at the genealogies in the scriptures and come to the millions of years view. That comes from outside pressure. The genealogies give the sole impression of a young earth.

God Bless You

 

[Yekcidmij]

Hello

But the bottom line is I think that, even given differences of opinions over genealogies, you couldn't look at the genealogies in the scriptures and come to the millions of years view. That comes from outside pressure. The genealogies give the sole impression of a young earth.

God Bless You

Based on the differing genealogies across the OT manuscripts, I don't think the genealogies give the impression of any historical claim about the age of the earth. I think the OT authors used genealogies to make/highlight theologically significant events in Israel's history. The genealogies across the manuscripts disagree because their respective authors and scribes didn't care about the historical fact of the matter as we debate about today - what they seemed more interested in was theologically significant things in Israel such as the Exodus, building of the tabernacle, 1st Temple, 2nd Temple and possibly the Maccabean Revolt. Though the numbers in the manuscripts disagree, what consistenly happens in all of them is these important events fall on significant dates - dates that are divisible by important numbers like 7, 10, 49, 50, etc..