Microchip contradiction?

Major1 · Aug 2, 2020

JohnDB said:
You still would have issues with number/identity theft, Scars and stains. Blueberry juice and henna tattoos. You couldn't just get a new number linked to your bank account.

Then, on top of all this...
The world has too many Christians to go along with such a notion of chips or tattoos. And then the others who have learned about such things.

The only way to steal someone's identity would be to cut off their arm or their head.

I think it would be helpful to remember that their will be NO Christians left on the earth when this takes place.

THAT is once again another reason to believe in a pretribulation Rapture.

2 Thess. 2:8-9..........
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the LORD shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming".

Paul said that the day of the Lord does not begin until the restraint by the Holy Spirit is removed and then the Antichrist will be removed. Since that has not happened, then the Day of the Lord is yet to come.

JohnDB · Aug 2, 2020

Major1 said:
The only way to steal someone's identity would be to cut off their arm or their head.

I think it would be helpful to remember that their will be NO Christians left on the earth when this takes place.

THAT is once again another reason to believe in a pretribulation Rapture.

2 Thess. 2:8-9..........
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the LORD shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming".

Paul said that the day of the Lord does not begin until the restraint by the Holy Spirit is removed and then the Antichrist will be removed. Since that has not happened, then the Day of the Lord is yet to come.

Bar codes are easily copied...the number skimming scams of today wouldn't have a stop-gap that a new card performs.

As it is now,
We have to have several accounts for security. A couple for actual transactions and then several others for nothing but feeding the others.
A thief can drain you dry for a month or more...then you can't pay bills and etc.

This process isn't automatic and is across several different banks...but it's the only way to survive these days. It's complicated and not for everyone. (People can't keep track of one account much less five)

Anytime you have a fixed number it's problematic...and cutting off hands to access a bar code? There are plenty of places today that $20 is more than enough to get you killed.

bbbbbbb · Aug 2, 2020

Major1 said:
AGREED!

Consider for just a moment. Lets say, 25 years ago, who thought that writing a check from your own bank account would be obsolete?????

But what has the DEBIT card done.......Exactly that!!!

How hard then will it be to place a "MARK of the skin which will include your Health information, Insurance Info and your Banking info.

As you just said......it is ALREADY here but just not on the Skin as of yet but IMO it is just around the corner.

Once the Rapture removes the believers, the Restrainer will be gone and the A/C can and will be able to do these things overnight.

I am not going to be surprised that one day we hear on the news that the government is going to issue everyone a new "HEALTH CARE CARD" under the heading of.........
"Free Universal Healthcare".

Excellent points!

Major1 · Aug 2, 2020

JohnDB said:
Bar codes are easily copied...the number skimming scams of today wouldn't have a stop-gap that a new card performs.

As it is now,
We have to have several accounts for security. A couple for actual transactions and then several others for nothing but feeding the others.
A thief can drain you dry for a month or more...then you can't pay bills and etc.

This process isn't automatic and is across several different banks...but it's the only way to survive these days. It's complicated and not for everyone. (People can't keep track of one account much less five)

Anytime you have a fixed number it's problematic...and cutting off hands to access a bar code? There are plenty of places today that $20 is more than enough to get you killed.

You are probably right. But in that day, the fear of what the A/C's police would do just may overshadow any fear of what you described.

Remember, he will be a ruthless, cunning and devious world ruler with no Holy Spirt to hold anything back.

Panevino · Aug 2, 2020

Major1 said:
I think that it is something YOU want to be there. Again, I just do not see it.

Then Of course I wonder why you feel the need to make such a personal comment on what I studied. It seems that always happens on "Christian" forums when someone does not agree with someone else.

I could be personal and say the very same thing about your study couldn't I??

But I will not do that.

Be safe my friend.

read from exo12:42 through to exo 13:10 the Passover ceremony is the context of the mark on the hand and forehead for future generations (ie clear but presented as symbolic of the worship)

It unnecessary to suggest it has nothing at all to do with hand and forehead in rev

In particular the mark of God on foreheads, is clearly referring back to the Passover with our understanding of the new paschal lamb(for Catholics most clearly a reference to the prayer / worship during Mass)

bbbbbbb · Aug 2, 2020

Major1 said:
You are probably right. But in that day, the fear of what the A/C's police would do just may overshadow any fear of what you described.

Remember, he will be a ruthless, cunning and devious world ruler with no Holy Spirt to hold anything back.

Praise God we won't be around here then!

Major1 · Aug 3, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
Praise God we won't be around here then!

Agreed which is exactly why there must be a pre-tribulation Rapture.

Major1 · Aug 3, 2020

Panevino said:
read from exo12:42 through to exo 13:10 the Passover ceremony is the context of the mark on the hand and forehead for future generations (ie clear but presented as symbolic of the worship)

It unnecessary to suggest it has nothing at all to do with hand and forehead in rev

In particular the mark of God on foreheads, is clearly referring back to the Passover with our understanding of the new paschal lamb(for Catholics most clearly a reference to the prayer / worship during Mass)

Agreed in that The Passover of Ex. has nothing to do with the Mark of Rev. 13.

The blood on the door post in the Passover was a sign given to Believers .

The Mark of the Beast will be taken by UNBELIEVERS.

Question:
Do you really believe that when John was given the Revelation and Jesus Himself used the words "FOREHEAD and RIGHT HAND".......they had some kind of alternative meaning in mind which we have to work to know????
Do we actually think that Jesus and John did not know what the FOREHEAD and the RIGHT HAND was?????

This is exactly what happens when we reject the LITERAL meaning of words in Scripture and begin to "Spiritualize" those very same words. When we do that, WE are trying to explain what WE THINK GOD MEANT TO SAY.

The only thing we can do and should do is accept the words AS THEY ARE WRITTEN unless told otherwise by those Scriptures.

Panevino · Aug 4, 2020

Major1 said:
Agreed in that The Passover of Ex. has nothing to do with the Mark of Rev. 13.

The blood on the door post in the Passover was a sign given to Believers .

sorry, not necessarily agreed.
Clearly the forehead sign of god is related to Passover
I’m not sure how you could deny it (though of course within the NT context of the new Passover lamb/mass for Catholics and symbolic supper for some Protestants (ie our new pascal lamb))

But the fact that worship is related to forehead and hand in exo is of course relatable to both forehead marks for God and for beast.

But of course forehead for beast is not the Passover, but of course some kind of anti Passover (so to speak) / rejection /usurping of God

I’m not sure why you would feel a need to reject that?

The Mark of the Beast will be taken by UNBELIEVERS.

Of course,
But is it a mark by itself or tied / entwined with a rejection or usurping of God

Question:
Do you really believe that when John was given the Revelation and Jesus Himself used the words "FOREHEAD and RIGHT HAND".......they had some kind of alternative meaning in mind which we have to work to know????
Do we actually think that Jesus and John did not know what the FOREHEAD and the RIGHT HAND was?????

This is exactly what happens when we reject the LITERAL meaning of words in Scripture and begin to "Spiritualize" those very same words. When we do that, WE are trying to explain what WE THINK GOD MEANT TO SAY.

The only thing we can do and should do is accept the words AS THEY ARE WRITTEN unless told otherwise by those Scriptures.

John knew the OT and in particular the reference to forehead and hand for Passover and it’s connection to worship (remember Passover was not an obscure liturgy it fell on the time of Holy Thursday/last supper/Good Friday) it’s still celebrated today (by jews and in its fulfillment for Catholics and orthodox in the Mass/Divine Liturgy)
Again I’m not necessarily saying that there is no physical Mark of beast (as there was a mark in the Passover night) just don’t think a mark in and of itself would mean anything on its own without an implicit or explicit / known rejection of God.

Note : I was intrigued once when I was told that the mark on lintel and door posts forms a shadow / framing of the cross.
I guess I’m not really rejecting your literal interpretation completely but elaborating on it with an associated act of faith/anti faith if that makes sense (like the Passover (liturgy/Mark/faith))

It’s similar to the Eucharist Catholic thought is both literally and spiritually (real flesh indeed and believing in Him etc)

JohnDB · Aug 4, 2020

Panevino said:
Note : I was intrigued once when I was told that the mark on lintel and door posts forms a shadow / framing of the cross.

An upside down U or an "n" is more likely.
Mazot is the name of the door frame...and today Jews have a Ten Commandments scroll affixed to the door frame inside of a brass box.

Door posts and frames haven't changed much in 6,000 years. The finish has...but not the frame.

The symbolic meaning is about laws and governance. Meaning that inside, past this door, everything is governed by the blood or Law. Outside is lawless and chaotic.

Tom 1 · Aug 4, 2020

Panevino said:
Background: I’m Catholic and don’t believe that a microchip is the mark of the beast, but understand it is the very prevalent and entrenched understanding among pentecostal Christians.

I have a couple questions about it for those that believe it (these are not loaded questions and I’m not here to convince others of my view but am interested in others understanding)

1. Does the mere acceptance of the chip damn you or does it require a coincident form of worship of sorts

2. Why or do? Pentecostals reject a Christian mark of the sign of the cross on forehead (ie example as done in Catholic church on Ash Wednesday or sign made with/without oil at Baptism, other blessings, during mass at announcement of the Gospels and also at anointing of the sick)

2(a) if Pentecostals do reject this Christian sign on forehead what do they consider the mark/sign in Rev9:4, 14:1..Of course Pentecostals would not accept that the sign of cross could be a mere mechanical process of it being there alone but it would have to be seen on someone who is “born again” repentant / in state of grace etc...

3 I’m wondering if there is a disconnect /inconsistency (in Pentecostal thought( between the acceptability / validity of the Christian mark and the mark Of the beast ie mechanism of its effect (ie with/without worship)

Faith in God would be pretty useless if it could somehow be defeated by a piece of technology.

Panevino · Aug 4, 2020

JohnDB said:
An upside down U or an "n" is more likely.
Mazot is the name of the door frame...and today Jews have a Ten Commandments scroll affixed to the door frame inside of a brass box.

Door posts and frames haven't changed much in 6,000 years. The finish has...but not the frame.

The symbolic meaning is about laws and governance. Meaning that inside, past this door, everything is governed by the blood or Law. Outside is lawless and chaotic.

Panevino · Aug 4, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Faith in God would be pretty useless if it could somehow be defeated by a piece of technology.

Thanks I agree. It would in my mind include or be a rejection of God or form of idolatry.

JohnDB · Aug 4, 2020

Yeah...
Not exactly conclusive when compared to how the Egyptians set up their laws on entrances to temples of their various gods.
That allusion is much more in keeping with the practice.

Panevino · Aug 4, 2020

What do you mean?
I understand door posts and lintels would be essentially normal shape as today.
The Egyptian law on entrances would not impact Gods instruction to place blood of lamb on lintel/posts.
Of course it is conjecture that they placed it in centre of lintel and even height on posts, but it’s not that strange if you face a door frame.

Not trying to argue with you, but let me know if I’m not aware of the door frames etc or some other detail

Thanks

JohnDB · Aug 4, 2020

Panevino said:
What do you mean?
I understand door posts and lintels would be essentially normal shape as today.
The Egyptian law on entrances would not impact Gods instruction to place blood of lamb on lintel/posts.
Of course it is conjecture that they placed it in centre of lintel and even height on posts, but it’s not that strange if you face a door frame.

Not trying to argue with you, but let me know if I’m not aware of the door frames etc or some other detail

Thanks

Because it was a big deal with the laws on the entrances.
A gateway/entrance had several layers of laws and rules/regulations. Somewhat similar to restrictions on who could enter the holy of Holies versus the court of the Gentiles. Each level having a higher set of restrictions as you entered. (The previous entrance's laws also applied)

This notion of "Chaos" or Lawless outside the entrance was also a key principle. It all related to the mindset of the Egyptian and Hebrew culture.

Outside of Egypt, whole towns and cities were known to have been become abandoned or it's inhabitants die. And that would be frightening to anyone...and it happened often enough that people hugged the laws that provided them stability.

Panevino · Aug 4, 2020

JohnDB said:
Because it was a big deal with the laws on the entrances.
A gateway/entrance had several layers of laws and rules/regulations. Somewhat similar to restrictions on who could enter the holy of Holies versus the court of the Gentiles. Each level having a higher set of restrictions as you entered. (The previous entrance's laws also applied)

This notion of "Chaos" or Lawless outside the entrance was also a key principle. It all related to the mindset of the Egyptian and Hebrew culture.

Outside of Egypt, whole towns and cities were known to have been become abandoned or it's inhabitants die. And that would be frightening to anyone...and it happened often enough that people hugged the laws that provided them stability.

But the instruction to put blood on doorposts/lintel for the night of Passover , was for simple family houses, not temples / Holy of Holies.
I’m not sure what I’m missing

JohnDB · Aug 4, 2020

Panevino said:
But the instruction to put blood on doorposts/lintel for the night of Passover , was for simple family houses, not temples / Holy of Holies.
I’m not sure what I’m missing

The Mazot...
There was a whole list of things that a Hebrew family was to accomplish in order to have the blood to put on the doorway... AKA a set of rules that they followed. (They did as God said...the Egyptians did not)

The Blood on the door was a sign that this whole household did as God had said and were under God's authority...not the Egyptian authority.

The Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians and under their authority...

bbbbbbb · Aug 4, 2020

Panevino said:
sorry, not necessarily agreed.
Clearly the forehead sign of god is related to Passover
I’m not sure how you could deny it (though of course within the NT context of the new Passover lamb/mass for Catholics and symbolic supper for some Protestants (ie our new pascal lamb))

But the fact that worship is related to forehead and hand in exo is of course relatable to both forehead marks for God and for beast.

But of course forehead for beast is not the Passover, but of course some kind of anti Passover (so to speak) / rejection /usurping of God

I’m not sure why you would feel a need to reject that?

Of course,
But is it a mark by itself or tied / entwined with a rejection or usurping of God

John knew the OT and in particular the reference to forehead and hand for Passover and it’s connection to worship (remember Passover was not an obscure liturgy it fell on the time of Holy Thursday/last supper/Good Friday) it’s still celebrated today (by jews and in its fulfillment for Catholics and orthodox in the Mass/Divine Liturgy)
Again I’m not necessarily saying that there is no physical Mark of beast (as there was a mark in the Passover night) just don’t think a mark in and of itself would mean anything on its own without an implicit or explicit / known rejection of God.

Note : I was intrigued once when I was told that the mark on lintel and door posts forms a shadow / framing of the cross.
I guess I’m not really rejecting your literal interpretation completely but elaborating on it with an associated act of faith/anti faith if that makes sense (like the Passover (liturgy/Mark/faith))

It’s similar to the Eucharist Catholic thought is both literally and spiritually (real flesh indeed and believing in Him etc)

Placing blood on the jambs and lintel of a doorway is only related to making the sign of the cross if one assumes (and it is a significant assumption) that the actual motions in doing so were the same as making the sign of the cross. We have no evidence what motions were actually taken. The logical way to do it would have been to slap some blood on one jamb, then the lintel, and then the other jamb in a circular pattern.

JohnDB · Aug 4, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
Placing blood on the jambs and lintel of a doorway is only related to making the sign of the cross if one assumes (and it is a significant assumption) that the actual motions in doing so were the same as making the sign of the cross. We have no evidence what motions were actually taken. The logical way to do it would have been to slap some blood on one jamb, then the lintel, and then the other jamb in a circular pattern.

Actually...
First thing is get a ladder or stool...
Then you do the top.
Then the top of the sides.
Then moving the ladder/stool out of the way so you can do the sides.

At this point in history if you were a Hebrew and Moses told you to cover the door frame to keep the Angel of Death from visiting you....you didn't want to miss an inch of doorframe with the blood.
You were scared...you took it very seriously at this point.
You followed the instructions as completely as possible.

Microchip contradiction?

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