Microchip contradiction?

Major1 · Jul 31, 2020

Panevino said:
Yes
I recall reading in one of the 1st century books, may of been Josephus or Pliny that just prior the destruction of the temple the Roman empire was requiring people to visibly worship pagan gods to be able to buy and sell / function in society.
This is more in line with what I’d expect, particularly with the verse that mentions worship with act and mind (ie hand and forehead)
Exo 13:1-10 essentially explains that the Passover (foreshadow of the Mass/Eucharist for Catholics) is God sign on the hand and memorial on the forehead.
This makes me view gods sign on forehead to not necessarily be a visible mark but connected to Worship of God.

Accordingly it gives me a sense that the mark of the beast is also unnecessarily a physical Mark and more dangerously in my mind related to worship or at least with worship of the beast

I hear you and understand what you are saying.

However, the Scriptures are very clear and for the MARK to be an "internal" thing of some kind is just not Biblical. If it is a "Chip" under the skin or some kind of internal thought process then THAT must be read into the Scriptures to be true.

Revelation 13:16-18 ......
"He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."

I am pretty sure that the words for RIGHT HAND or FOREHEAD 2000 years ago is the same word used today.

bbbbbbb · Jul 31, 2020

Major1 said:
On the other hand.......if you had a couple of children crying and complaining about being hungry and all you had to do was allow a MARK to placed on your skin and then everyone could eat and be happy......how long would you hold out?????

Pentecostal has nothing to do with it at all.

It seems to me that "pentecostal" has now become a stereotypical derogatory slur, much like "fundamentalist" has been.

Major1 · Jul 31, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
Not to mention various "Christian" tattoos.

That begs another question. Is there actually such a thing as "Christian Tattoos"?

I would make the argument that the Old Test. says that such things are a way to identify slaves.

Leviticus 19:28, the Bible says.........
‘Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you; I am the Lord.’

I am guessing that someone will say that we are not under the law so that Scripture does not apply.

However, with just a little study we can find that the immediate context of Leviticus 19:27-28 suggests that Moses was attempting to inoculate Israel against the emulation of certain heathen practices related to idolatry.

Any thoughts?????

Major1 · Jul 31, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
It seems to me that "pentecostal" has now become a stereotypical derogatory slur, much like "fundamentalist" has been.

I agree 100%.

Or just maybe they do not know that there is a difference in Pentecostals and Methodists and Baptists and so on and so on.

Major1 · Jul 31, 2020

Panevino said:
Understood.
I recall a “destruction of the temple “(~70ad) writing (pliny or Josephus??) that described a demand to worship an image / prove loyalty to a god emperor /idol to be able to function in society (buy/sell)
This is more what I had in mind / also tend to agree with your view.

thanks for your reply
I’m no expert in the denominations, I have heard from Assembly of God Christians in australia / South Americans who are quite convinced about it. But I know that it can change significance with different congregations in other cities / countries.

yeah I’m aware of the non/anti sacramentalism. Which is why I find it contradictory that
1. Some AoG almost see the chip in a kind of strawman sacramental view they accuse Catholics of. (Ie regardless of intent)
2. The fear / refusal of making a sign of the cross or marking a sign of cross on a forehead. It comes across as a superstitious fear. (Admittedly this impression is likely biased / influenced by my Catholic appreciation of the sign of the cross)

Understood.
I guess I find your view consistent then of the counter forehead marks (ie intent / orientation)

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I am not being argumentative to you but you might want to consider that the making of the "sign of the Cross" on the forehead IS NOT BIBLICAL therefore a lot of Protestants would say that it should not be done as it points to idolatry instead of Christ.

I say that only to point out that the Cross of Christ does not save us. It is Christ ON the cross that saves us.

Major1 · Jul 31, 2020

Blade said:
In Rev 13 its written "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

So a chip today is just a chip nothing more. No believer will ever worship the beast. And you HAVE to worship it or you die.

As for the cross mark on your forehead. In truth I have never seen a person with one. Had many friends that were Catholic but.. never saw one of them with a cross on the forehead..so I can't say. For my self I would have to pray about it.. but I see nothing wrong with it. Its about Christ yes?

And people have earrings and cross around about the neck.. anyway

Good responce Blade!

The MARK of the Beast is in fact a "Mark" and a chip is not. A mark is seen and a chip is hidden.

I would say that wearing a cross is not a problem but there is a problem when someone wears a piece of jewelry that shows Christ ON THE Cross. He is not there anymore but is sitting on the right hand of Go interceding for us today.

Major1 · Jul 31, 2020

SPF said:
Good questions that I would like to hear the answers on as well. Though I don't think those beliefs are confined to only Pentecostals, I think they're actually held by the majority of pre-trib rapture believing Protestants in general.

That is the right answer!

Major1 · Jul 31, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
You are quite correct. This whole idea is related to a general distrust of government in all its manifestations as well as to efforts to determine the "fact" that Jesus Christ will return "this year" at the latest. There is also the general susceptibility to believe various lies and rumors. For example, in the 1980's there was a widespread lie that Proctor and Gamble was actually owned and founded by Satanists, simply because their corporate logo was a moon with some stars.

The idea that the mark of the beast will be imposed on unwitting folks is very deeply rooted. I remember as a young child going with my Pentecostal grandparents to visit a public garden in Florida where our hands were given a rubber stamp to allow us to leave and return at will. My grandparents were literally beside themselves that we were being given the mark of the Beast and we would all fry in hell as a result (really not unlike the view that some members of some denominations hold that if their members cross the doorway and enter the church of any other denomination they have committed a mortal sin).

What is happening here is that the rhetoric is being ramped up that with the microchips embedded in people the government will be able to track folks and essentially place them under perpetual surveillance. This can be both positive and negative. Positively, owners can find lost pets and children who have embedded microchips. Negatively, governments such as the Communist Party of China can completely eliminate anything and anyone they view as any sort of threat.

Excellent bbbbbbbbb!

Another word for it is......."Conspiracy Theories'".

You know, Big Foot and Alien's in Nevada area 51, and the list goes on and on and on.

I was thinking, since so many people believe in a "Big Foot" character, why has there never been found one single skeleton anywhere in the world????

Does that mean they never die????
Does that mean they bury their dead.?

I mean, inquisitive minds need to know these things.

bbbbbbb · Jul 31, 2020

Major1 said:
Excellent bbbbbbbbb!

Another word for it is......."Conspiracy Theories'".

You know, Big Foot and Alien's in Nevada area 51, and the list goes on and on and on.

I was thinking, since so many people believe in a "Big Foot" character, why has there never been found one single skeleton anywhere in the world????

Does that mean they never die????
Does that mean they bury their dead.?

I mean, inquisitive minds need to know these things.

Indeed, my inquisitive mind also needs to examine the evidence.

bbbbbbb · Jul 31, 2020

Major1 said:
That begs another question. Is there actually such a thing as "Christian Tattoos"?

I would make the argument that the Old Test. says that such things are a way to identify slaves.

Leviticus 19:28, the Bible says.........
‘Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you; I am the Lord.’

I am guessing that someone will say that we are not under the law so that Scripture does not apply.

However, with just a little study we can find that the immediate context of Leviticus 19:27-28 suggests that Moses was attempting to inoculate Israel against the emulation of certain heathen practices related to idolatry.

Any thoughts?????

I place tattoos in the gray area of things such as using tobacco, not to mention other very questionable, if not very toxic, drugs, including alcohol and "medical" marijuana. Do these things glorify God or merely suit the ego of the individual?

Panevino · Jul 31, 2020

Major1 said:
I hear you and understand what you are saying.

However, the Scriptures are very clear and for the MARK to be an "internal" thing of some kind is just not Biblical. If it is a "Chip" under the skin or some kind of internal thought process then THAT must be read into the Scriptures to be true.

Revelation 13:16-18 ......
"He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."

I am pretty sure that the words for RIGHT HAND or FOREHEAD 2000 years ago is the same word used today.

Quick reply..
I understand, there is the OT verses that describe these location on body as metaphorical for worship(exo 13:1-10 having said that I’m not necessarily saying that its definitely not a visible mark)
But regardless, in your view do you then consider the Christian mark on forehead in Rev to be actual/visible? Or both visible and tied with true worship?

Panevino · Jul 31, 2020

Major1 said:
Good responce Blade!

The MARK of the Beast is in fact a "Mark" and a chip is not. A mark is seen and a chip is hidden.

I would say that wearing a cross is not a problem but there is a problem when someone wears a piece of jewelry that shows Christ ON THE Cross. He is not there anymore but is sitting on the right hand of Go interceding for us today.

Of course and Catholic wearing one would agree but also see it as evangelization for what he did for us and relevant to...
1 Corinthians 1:23

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

bbbbbbb · Jul 31, 2020

Panevino said:
Of course and Catholic wearing one would agree but also see it as evangelization for what he did for us and relevant to...
1 Corinthians 1:23

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

There is, however, a very significant difference between preaching the gospel and wearing an ornament which might not be understood at all as symbolic of one's faith. I daresay if I happened to see someone wearing this - I would probably not associate that person with a particular religion, would you?

Panevino · Jul 31, 2020

Major1 said:
It sounds to me like you have a problem with Pentecostals.

I believe that it is a prevalent thought among "Protestants" not just Pentecostals.

No not a “problem with..” but perceive some inconsistency with the mark of god /beast and also sacramentals (ie wearing crucifix / chip)
In Australia the more prevalent Protestants (Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian) don’t really talk about it, however the Assembly of God Christians do(not as many) (sorry if I have it wrong but I categorize them as Pentecostal (speaking in tounges/rock band /lights etc..)
I know in the United States it is a far more prevalent a view (ie chip) among other Protestant denominations/movies /culture etc...
South Americans Protestants while they really don’t trust USA politics paradoxically really tend to follow love USA Protestantism

The answer may just be that they read and do Bible study to a greater degree than Catholics. Just a thought.

I’d tend to agree for the last 50 years but not over the stretch of time since the early church

Panevino · Jul 31, 2020

bbbbbbb said:
There is, however, a very significant difference between preaching the gospel and wearing an ornament which might not be understood at all as symbolic of one's faith. I daresay if I happened to see someone wearing this - View attachment 282047 I would probably not associate that person with a particular religion, would you?

I think the crucifix is a significantly recognized sign and a very loud non verbal evangelization tool that has assisted to prompt many conversions.

It’s also clearly unliked (stumbling block) to many with governments in some instances removing them / organizations frowning on their display etc..

But I do understand that most Protestants are not comfortable with it and even see it as an a break of commandments

Broken Fence · Aug 1, 2020

The mere acceptance of the microchip in your body is mark of the Beast. Then you are dammed and have choose 666.

Panevino · Aug 1, 2020

Broken Fence said:
The mere acceptance of the microchip in your body is mark of the Beast. Then you are dammed and have choose 666.

View attachment 282050

Isn’t the mere acceptance of it ( without intent /knowledge of it being the beast etc / rejection of god )contradictory to the protestant view of things such as baptism I E for example infant baptism typical arguments
And also what do you consider to be the mark of God in revelation on the forehead would you accept it as valid be it merely a mark without faith?(or faith without visible Mark) If so why would you offer so much power conversely to this visible mark (barcode)? Comparatively

I hope that makes sense I’m not tryinf to be argumentative but this is essentially the inconsistency I see

Radagast · Aug 1, 2020

Broken Fence said:
The mere acceptance of the microchip in your body is mark of the Beast. Then you are dammed and have choose 666.

View attachment 282050

There's more falsehoods in that post than there are actual words. In particular:

a microchip is not the mark of the Beast
the vertical lines on a bar code do not mean 666 (on a UPC, 6 is 0101111 or 1010000, while the guard patterns are 101 and 01010)
an object with the number 666 on it is not Satanic (there are several churches with the street number 666)
bar codes do not have anything to do with microchips
nobody is implanting microchips in people's hands

Radagast · Aug 1, 2020

Panevino said:
But I do understand that most Protestants are not comfortable with it and even see it as an a break of commandments

But many Protestants wear a cross without the figure.

Panevino · Aug 1, 2020

Radagast said:
But many Protestants wear a cross without the figure.

Yes, and I understand those Protestants would also see it as a form of evangelization too aswell as a reminder to self and others of what we are called to etc...as Christians and other things too, including a form of preaching Christ Crucified per Paul

Microchip contradiction?

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