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Micro and macro evolution explained.

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Subduction Zone, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Aron Ra is a Christian Forums alumnus. He has done very well for himself since leaving this community. Here he explains Macro and micro evolution:

     
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  2. Paulos23

    Paulos23 Never tell me the odds!

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    I like Aron Ra. He can be a bit of a fire-brand at times, but he gets the point across.
     
  3. The IbanezerScrooge

    The IbanezerScrooge I can't believe what I'm hearing...

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    He's actually calmed down a bit from his early days IMO. He's much more science minded now a days than philosophical and that's the direction he comes from. He is unapologetic in his critiques though, that's for sure. I enjoyed the video.
     
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  4. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    It takes 32 minutes to explain macro and micro evolution?

    I'll get the condensed version from the dictionary.

    And for the record, I tried to watch it, but stopped at 06:02 for obvious reasons.
     
  5. The IbanezerScrooge

    The IbanezerScrooge I can't believe what I'm hearing...

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    ?? Does learning that the corn we have today was nothing like the Mexican grass it came from many centuries ago offend your sensibilities? I mean... obviously.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    I really have no clue. There was nothing insulting there. There was nothing shocking there.
     
  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I can’t speak to the content at 6 minutes, but the first 90 seconds is dedicated to insulting his opponents without actually presenting any information at all.

    I think he found three different ways of saying that all people of faith are stupid in a single 60 second block of his opening. That sort of calls into question whether he really desires to explain anything to anyone.

    This is an atheist “preaching to the choir” presentation, not really an attempt to communicate “across the aisle”.

    Sorry, I find evolution plausible (but irrelevant to Civil Engineering) and I just found the presenter to be an arrogant ass. I would walk out on him as quickly as I would walk out on Benny Hinn.
     
  8. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Unfortunately that's the way the guy is.

    He seems to have a real problem with Christians, but I have a feeling it's with God.

    He may have lost a brother or wife or close friend, and blames it on God.
     
  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Is he insulting or merely being accurate?

    And I don't think that he says people of faith are "stupid". There are severe flaws with the reasonings of creationists.

    And why do you make the creationist error of associating science with atheism? There are many scientists that are Christians. Only a handful of very often dishonest scientists oppose evolution. There are many many more Christian scientists that have no problem with evolution.
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I rewatched the first 90 seconds just to be sure ... Insulting.
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Factual, not insulting. I just rewatched it myself. Where was he wrong? How did he insult?
     
  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I don’t. His opening rant was pro-atheist because it was anti-faith. It had nothing to do with science and everything to do with his opponents and the irrational folly of faith. That is what made it an “atheist preaching to the choir”.

    I enjoy TED talks and have a strong background in Chemistry and the Earth Sciences, so I am skeptical of some evolutionary claims (like life emerging from non-living chemicals in the time frame given) and I object to the change in the definition of species that if applied to people would make the French and Iranians two different species (like Darwin’s Finch), however I am not crushed by the thought of an earth that is older than 6000 years or the thought that all bears share a common ancestor.

    That said, I am a Christian and a Fundamentalist and I am unwilling to dismiss Genesis as “myth” given the relative track records of the Bible and sciences like Archeology. I am old enough to remember being taught that the Hittites were a myth because there were no Iron Age civilizations prior to the Egyptian Bronze Age ... proof that Genesis was wrong about the Hittites and their iron and chariot wheels. So I am unwilling to swallow the Sagan hubris pill of “billions and billions” and prefer to remain a little more open.

    To hear a Creationist talk, unless science can create intelligent life from a vat of chemicals, it has not proven evolution. To hear Evolutionists talk, they were there when single celled organisms evolved into multicellular lifeforms. Both sides seem too arrogant towards the other.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    If that is how you view it, then we really have no common ground for discussion. Enjoy the “atheist sermon”.
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it offends mine.

    Can modern corn breed with wild corn and produce a fertile offspring capable of reproducing and passing on its genetic information to future generations?

    That was the litmus test for differentiation of species and that would make both wild and modern and all of the corns that came in between THE SAME SPECIES.

    So for someone to hold that up as “proof” of evolution and speciation is very offensive to my sensibilities. The Bible says “kind”, so Corn is a kind and anyone familiar with Corn could explain what is another kind of corn and what is not. There is no attempt to play games like with scientific “speciation”.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Can you quote him? His statement about "preaching to the choir" was referring to those that accept reality and had nothing to do with religion. There are more Christians that accept evolution in the US than atheists that accept it.

    Okay, you are wrong about evolution claiming that life arose from non-living chemical (by the way, all chemicals are "non-living"). Abiogenesis is a related but separate topic from evolution. Evolution deals with life after it existed. It does not specify or matter what the source of life is. Second you used a poor analogy. People from Iran will interbreed with people from France if given a chance. Darwin's finches do not tend to do that. That is the first step in speciation. Some of them are different species, some may not be. We see a range of speciation there. Lastly not only do all bears share a common ancestor. You share one with them. That ancestor was not an ape or a bear. But it was a mammal. You are still a mammal as are bears. No "change of kind".

    I do not recall ever being taught that claim about Hittites. And I doubt if you can support the claim with valid sources. And Sagan had no hubris. When is awe about reality hubris?
    Now you demonstrate that you do not understand what is required for a "proof". By the legal standard of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" evolution has been proven. It is the only concept that is supported by reliable evidence and that evidence is endless. I always suggest that we go over the concept of evidence and the scientific method so that people can argue properly.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Trying to educate people about reality is never a "sermon". Ironically you do something that Aron Ra pointed out in his talk. Creationists try to insult biology by stating or implying that it is a religion. It is demonstrably not so. It is evidence based. Religious beliefs are faith based. You are in effect belittling your own religious beliefs by trying to use religion as a put down.
     
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    So will the corn.
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No, it has not.
    Please present the PROOF that any given bear and any given human share a common ancestor. The inability to prove an event that had no witnesses and left no real evidence is what makes Evolution a theory rather than a law.

    PS. Science is not bound by “legal standards” of proof.
     
  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but we heard the same words and disagree on their meaning, so there is no point.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    You were talking about finches. Corn is almost certainly a much more recent example of man made evolution.

    Let's go over the steps of evolution. The first step is separation of species. Corn and teocinte have never been fully separated so their interbreeding is not unexpected. Some of Darwin's finches will interbreed at times with others. But that has not been shown for all species. They appear to be undergoing the first steps of speciation. Then we can see well known species at different steps in speciation. Bison are not that far from Cattle and will interbreed at times. Their offspring can also be fertile, if I remember correctly. Lions and Tigers can interbreed, but their offspring are greatly limited in their fertility. That infertility appears to be even higher in the next generation. They may experience what humans and Neanderthals did when they interbred. Then we have horses and donkeys. Their offspring is almost always sterile. I can count the number of fertile mules found on the fingers of one hand. And that is with thousands of such parings. Eventually we have species that look alike but cannot interbreed.

    Plus we can see it in action with ring species:

    [​IMG]

    Croceater cannot interbreed with eshscholtzii, yet they can interbreed with the subspecies north of them, and those can interbreed with those north of them until they meet again at the top of the Central Valley. A perfect example of ring species. Separation that eventually leads to complete speciation.
     
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