Michael Knowles demands a retraction, and gets it.

[ThatRobGuy]

My sense is most people are trying to form opinions on this without actually knowing a trans person - or even reading about a trans persons experience in any depth. Absent that, I think people literally have no clue what theyre talking about. Its like theyre making judgements based another persons description of a stick figure drawing. All this talk about "middle ground" is worthless when people are deciding in ignorance what the right and left bounds of discussion should be.

I don't think one needs an in-depth medical understanding of the situation to know where the far left and far right bounds of the Overton Window currently is for this particular issue (or any other) when it comes to public policy, nor would they need any first hand experience in order to shape a valid opinion with regards to how that situation impacts the rest of society.

And while it could be helpful to hear the life stories of people in that situation as one point of consideration, first-hand accounts and anecdotes shouldn't be conflated with expertise with regards to how to make something work within a society...as first hand accounts of an experience tend to be very myopic and very skewed to the interests of the individual providing the anecdote.

For instance, an anecdote of "these particular things being allowed would've made things better for me" has to be balanced with countervailing interests. Because there a lot of people in society, and everybody all wants what makes themselves the most comfortable, simultaneously.

I've heard trans speakers speak on the topic before (one that sticks out in memory is an interview with a person who goes by Buck Angel --fair warning to CF members, I don't recommend googling that name if you're easily offended by certain subject matter, as they worked in the adult film industry...however, YouTube will have things like interviews that are all PG-13 and tamer), and while I can appreciate a person wanting to tell their story and add a viewpoint to the equation, the input is pretty predictable and what you'd expect on the subject.


There's a reason why our societal structures don't put ultimate decision making on public policy in the hands of people who are personally impacted by something, and instead, aims to balance their interests against the interests of others.

For instance, we don't allow the mother of a car crash victim to be in charge of deciding what the driving laws should be based on what might have prevented the specific incident that negatively impacted them. (with nothing else being considered)
If there was a group of people who experienced adverse reactions to a drug, we wouldn't task them (or give them a heavily weighted input) with deciding how society should regulate drugs.
etc...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Two stories about people being fired for being gay or transgender. If you don't want to watch, those two stories are also told in the article below.

What article below?

She was fired for being trans. Don't move the goalposts.

I'm an atheist. Would it be wrong to fire me if I was a pastor and I came out as "atheist"?

Or is there some underlying ideological conflict which validates my firing?

So do Dave Chappelle and JK Rowling, and yet you're harping on about them being cancelled.

They lost money as opposed to getting a larger platform and more money.

Yes, an example is provided. Did you read the article?

No....when you include so many spurious examples (person hired at HuffPo, person fired from church) it throws into doubt the rest of the list.

What about being a government official gives people a license to criticize your appearance or gender identity? Those have nothing to do with your ability to do your job.

US Surgeon General definitely relates to those concerns. Imagine a big fat man dying of diabetes as our Surgeon General and I would think we could validly criticize his health choices/personal choices relating to health.

 

[rjs330]

And if I say “No” I will not give up that ideology, what are they going to do? How do they eradicate the ideology of people refuse to give it up. Are they going to admit their attempt at eradicating the ideology failed? That’s their only choice…









Unless they eradicate the people with ideology they don’t like.

It’s a real short step from wanting to eradicate ideas to wanting to eradicate people. That’s why that language needs to be immediately called out every time it occurs.

You are entitled to any idea you want to have. I've already stated what the ism is. It's not just an idea, but it's an idea in action that imposes it's will upon others who don't share the idea.

It's harming children and women. And it needs to be eradicated.

Believe in the ideology all you want. When you take action to implement the ideology then the ism becomes more than thought.

But no one including Knowles ever said you are not entitled to your ideas. If you want to eradicate an idea you do have to eradicate anyone with it. But that's not what anyone is saying.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And if I say “No” I will not give up that ideology, what are they going to do? How do they eradicate the ideology of people refuse to give it up. Are they going to admit their attempt at eradicating the ideology failed? That’s their only choice…

It's not a unique concept to require adherents of ideologies to work within societal laws without giving up their own personal connection to their ideology.

IE: You can think/believe whatever you want, but society isn't going to reflect that or accommodate that.

It's much like relationship between various forms of Theism and western society.

For instance. A member of the Muslim or Hindu or Christian faith can personally believe whatever they want, but our society's laws aren't going to cater to them, and our society's laws aren't going to dictate that everyone else has to pretend what they believe is real when interacting with them if they don't want to.


Many of the current forms of LGBTQ+ activism are the equivalent of if Jewish people were demanding that the government make everyone else adhere to and give lip service to the concepts of a Kosher diet and demanding that every restaurant in the country uphold Kosher standards in order to make them more comfortable.

We, as a society, can opt to say "no, restaurants will be allowed to serve meat and dairy in the same meal, they'll be allowed to serve pork...if you don't like it, you don't have to go there, or you can start your own restaurant or follow those practices at home, but your viewpoints on this matter aren't going to be foisted on everyone else"

 

[rjs330]

What if the guy had said 'Shower facilites and toilets for transgender people at whatever stage they are at are a problem that needs to be addressed. Transgenderism in sport is a problem that needs to be addressed. The age at which young people can transgender needs to be addressed. Both sides of this 'ideology' need to sit down and discuss this like adults and work through the problems that each side has with it. A lot of people need help and we need to be prepared to give it'.

Some polite applause? A few nodding heads. A lot of disgruntled people wondering why this 'appeasement' to the liberal, Marxist right is being proposed? Or did he think that 'Transgenderism must be eradicated!' would fire up the crowd and made him look like a man of decision. A man who stood for something. A leader.

This is just me, but he came across as a fool and it looked exactly like he was playing politics and treating a complex problem like it was a simple black and white decision to make. It was nothing more then 'Dems bad, GOP good.' It was simplistic, thoughtless and naive. Bumper sticker politics. But hey, I'll give him this - he knew his audience. Why aim high when they don't expect it and would find the problems too hard to deal with anyway?

Just like Fox, really. Tell people what they want to hear and they won't need to spend precious time thinking about the problem. They'll keep coming back for more. And that's all that counts really. Treat your audience like morons and they'll follow you wherever you go. Please collect your pitchforks at the door and don't light the torches until you're outside. Health and safety don't you know...

We've already been through this. There is no way to address some of these problems. In fact some have tried to address them with what appears to be a reasonable response and guess who said no? It wasn't those on our side.

You can't address the problem of men competing against women in sporting events. There is no way to compromise on this. Either you are a biological male or a female. No matter how many surgeries you get. Males will always have an unfair advantage.

The only compromise you can have for undressing in women's locker rooms and showering around women is to say no unless you've had all the prerequisite surgeries. And you know what, we've supported that. You know who doesn't? The transgenderism people.

Same goes for bathrooms.

It always comes down to NO from them. It's always all or nothing.

There would never would have been a call to eradicate transgenderism if none of this would have happened. It was a ideology forced upon everyone by them. They would broke no compromise and accept no alterations. In places they were even giv n their own space and the answer was no. They HAD to invade the women's spaces.

 

[Bradskii]

We've already been through this. There is no way to address some of these problems.

Maybe no solutions that you'd like might be the better way of putting it. Tell you what, you watch from the sidelines, make comments as you see applicable, and leave it to those who would like to see solutions determined. But if you are determined that there are no solutions, you have excused yourself from discussions by those who want to find some.

 

[rjs330]

Maybe no solutions that you'd like might be the better way of putting it. Tell you what, you watch from the sidelines, make comments as you see applicable, and leave it to those who would like to see solutions determined. But if you are determined that there are no solutions, you have excused yourself from discussions by those who want to find some.

You say that but you really have no solutions to offer. Solutions have been discussed. Like bathrooms with nothing but fully enclosed stalls and sink sharing. That's a solution. It's a terrible one but one that takes care of the bathroom problem in public bathrooms in stores. It does nothing for schools where all kinds of terrible things happen now.

But since you are a solution guy, what's your solution for women's sports?

 

[rjs330]

Maybe no solutions that you'd like might be the better way of putting it. Tell you what, you watch from the sidelines, make comments as you see applicable, and leave it to those who would like to see solutions determined. But if you are determined that there are no solutions, you have excused yourself from discussions by those who want to find some.

Since I would like to see solutions determined you can't put me on the sideline.

I'm afraid you didn't pay any attention to my post and just decided to cherry pick something without any context from the rear of the post. I'm not surprised actually. Let me assist with clarity.

There are no solutions to some of these problems because the transactivists have shown an unwillingness to have a solution. It's their way or the highway. They demand to do something and if you say "wait a minute" you are immediately labled a transphobe and bigot. So there is no solution. The only solution is theirs which is you must allow men in women's sports, you must allow boys to get naked with girls and shower with them. You must accept and celebrate my delusions. There is no actual solution with people like that.

You have even argued their points showing you have no real solutions either. But hey I am willing to hear one for the women's sports. Go ahead and let a are a real solution that takes into consideration everyone.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

You are entitled to any idea you want to have. I've already stated what the ism is. It's not just an idea, but it's an idea in action that imposes it's will upon others who don't share the idea.

It's harming children and women. And it needs to be eradicated.

Believe in the ideology all you want. When you take action to implement the ideology then the ism becomes more than thought.

But no one including Knowles ever said you are not entitled to your ideas. If you want to eradicate an idea you do have to eradicate anyone with it. But that's not what anyone is saying.

Patriarchy and parental sovereignty are hurting women and children but I’m not seeking to eradicate those ideas. I see no reason to, I have the better position and that will win the day because people will see it is the better position and flock to it.

What are you going to do when your plan to eradicate transgenderism inevitably fails?

 

[durangodawood]

I don't think one needs an in-depth medical understanding of the situation to know where the far left and far right bounds of the Overton Window currently is for this particular issue (or any other) when it comes to public policy, nor would they need any first hand experience in order to shape a valid opinion with regards to how that situation impacts the rest of society.

Medical understanding? I was talking about first hand life story. This is necessary in a world where trans skeptics in power dont even think its a real thing. Its like how so many people thought about gays years ago, believing it was just a choice you could easily unchoose. The only thing that fixes that misimpression for good is actually knowing about real people.

So first have some actual and not mytho-polemic understanding of the people youre going to legislate over. Then bring in other forms of expertise.

 

[rjs330]

Patriarchy and parental sovereignty are hurting women and children but I’m not seeking to eradicate those ideas. I see no reason to, I have the better position and that will win the day because people will see it is the better position and flock to it.

What are you going to do when your plan to eradicate transgenderism inevitably fails?

You see those ideas are nonsense. I'm not calling for eradicating thise ideas. Just like no one is calling for the eradication if the trans ideas. See we agree. No one is trying to eradicate an idea.

The actions of transgenderism needs to be eradicated. We need to stop the ism that has taken over and is harming children. And guess what we are doing that. All over the country we are now seeing movement away from this destructive ideology.

We will never give up. Even in other countries we are seeing a move away from it. Protecting the children is what it's all about. Protecting women is what it's all about.

It's no different that wanting to eradicate racism. It would be very good to eradicate racism. You will never eradicate racists. But the ism would would be good to do. And we are winning the war on that front too. It started with the Civil War, moved on to civil rights and now the ism actions in a lot of places and ways have been made illegal. You can be a racist, but it's very difficult to practice it in society today as it is frowned upon, and illegal in many ways.

 

[USincognito]

"isms" typically refer to an ideology.

So for instance, if someone were to say "Trumpism must be eradicated" or "communism/socialism/capitalism must be eradicated", would the immediate assumption be that it's calling for the genocide of people who fell into those ideological buckets?

Being transgender isn't an ideology.

 

[USincognito]

destructive ideology.

Being transgender isn't an "ideology" and it certainly isn't a destructive one.

Protecting the children is what it's all about. Protecting women is what it's all about.

Denying children health care is "protecting them"?

It's no different that wanting to eradicate racism.

Comparing transgender people to racists is perhaps the cruelest slander I've seen directed at trans people thus far...

.. today.

 

[rjs330]

Medical understanding? I was talking about first hand life story. This is necessary in a world where trans skeptics in power dont even think its a real thing. Its like how so many people thought about gays years ago, believing it was just a choice you could easily unchoose. The only thing that fixes that misimpression for good is actually knowing about real people.

So first have some actual and not mytho-polemic understanding of the people youre going to legislate over. Then bring in other forms of expertise.

Don't be naive. Of course we all know transgender is a real thing. My best friend's daughter went trans. I walked with him through that. I know how difficult it was for him. So I understand the mental health aspects of this first hand.

I know how destructive this is to kids. If you are an adult and have these mental health issues, how you handle it is up to you. You have to deal with the consequences of your own actions at that point cause you are an adult.

Children have no clue in what they are doing because they are kids and are easily swayed because they run on emotions. Thier brains are not fully formed yet. That's why parents get to tell them what they can and can't eat, when they need to go to bed and where they can go and when they need to be home. That's why society handles kids differently when it comes to criminal behavior.

That's why transactivists want this stuff in schools cause they know how kids can be influenced.

 

[rjs330]

Being transgender isn't an ideology.

Do you understand the difference? Cause there is one.

 

[rjs330]

Being transgender isn't an "ideology" and it certainly isn't a destructive one.

Denying children health care is "protecting them"?

Comparing transgender people to racists is perhaps the cruelest slander I've seen directed at trans people thus far...

.. today.

Perhaps you need to do some more research on the difference between and ideology and a person. Transgenders are NOT bad people like racists are because there is a mental health component to the person.

TrnasgenderISM is a bad ideology like racisISM is a bad ideology. The actions of both camps are destructive to people. Particularly to women and children.

 

[rjs330]

Denying children health care is "protecting them"?

Do you believe allowing kids to mutilate their bodies, chemically castrate themselves and take damaging irreversible drugs is healthcare?

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

You see those ideas are nonsense. I'm not calling for eradicating thise ideas. Just like no one is calling for the eradication if the trans ideas. See we agree. No one is trying to eradicate an idea.

The actions of transgenderism needs to be eradicated. We need to stop the ism that has taken over and is harming children. And guess what we are doing that. All over the country we are now seeing movement away from this destructive ideology.

We will never give up. Even in other countries we are seeing a move away from it. Protecting the children is what it's all about. Protecting women is what it's all about.

It's no different that wanting to eradicate racism. It would be very good to eradicate racism. You will never eradicate racists. But the ism would would be good to do. And we are winning the war on that front too. It started with the Civil War, moved on to civil rights and now the ism actions in a lot of places and ways have been made illegal. You can be a racist, but it's very difficult to practice it in society today as it is frowned upon, and illegal in many ways.

They aren’t. They are losing for the exact same reason they lost with marriage equality. Lying about their target, saying they are all pedophiles and broken people has detrimental effects on your cause. When followers of theirs meet someone who is transgender and realize that they aren’t monsters, it torpedos the credibility and one less person on their side. This even worse for Christians who participate in this lie. People start questioning other things the Christian told them including their faith and not only do they lose support for their crusade they lose a soul to hell.

Truly, their only hope of eradicating transgenderism is genocide because as long as their are transgender people out and about, their lies about transgender people will be exposed. Watch the movie “Jojo Rabbit.” It shows a young boy experincing this in Nazi Germany as he meets a Jewish girl and learns the Nazis were lying to him about the Jews.

 

[KCfromNC]

"isms" typically refer to an ideology.

So for instance, if someone were to say "Trumpism must be eradicated" or "communism/socialism/capitalism must be eradicated", would the immediate assumption be that it's calling for the genocide of people who fell into those ideological buckets?

I mean, we have examples of people getting all bent out of shape over calling out racism in GOP as deplorable. Or more recent outrage over daring to question the legitimacy of the "let's attack the US Capitol" part of MAGA-ism.

This attempt to split hairs now seems to be especially selective given those reactions to recent similar statements calling out -isms that the far right is sympathetic to.

 

[durangodawood]

Don't be naive. Of course we all know transgender is a real thing. My best friend's daughter went trans. I walked with him through that. I know how difficult it was for him. So I understand the mental health aspects of this first hand.

I know how destructive this is to kids. If you are an adult and have these mental health issues, how you handle it is up to you. You have to deal with the consequences of your own actions at that point cause you are an adult.

Children have no clue in what they are doing because they are kids and are easily swayed because they run on emotions. Thier brains are not fully formed yet. That's why parents get to tell them what they can and can't eat, when they need to go to bed and where they can go and when they need to be home. That's why society handles kids differently when it comes to criminal behavior.

That's why transactivists want this stuff in schools cause they know how kids can be influenced.

I think youre naive if you think the people legislating on this typically know any trans people and acknowledge their situation as a real aspect of their person.

And we do not all know transgender is a real, and not fabricated, thing. Thats obvious just from participating in a few threads right here. Plenty of people think gender and biology are matching binaries, end of story.