Met with the Missionaries?

arizona_sunshine · Feb 13, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
http://www.mission2mormons.org/

Very creative web design.

TOmNossor · Feb 13, 2004

Duende,

I am an ex-Catholic LDS. About a year ago I felt the NEED to investigate the Catholic Church extensively. I am still a committed LDS and I would be willing to share with you my reasons if you have some strange desire to know them.

If you are a committed Catholic and only want to protect your flock, I have one piece of advice that I hope my LDS brothers and sisters will not mind me giving to you.

TEACH THEM TRANSUBSTANTIATION.

If you know the doctrine and feel the real presence of Christ when you partake of the sacrament, I do not think you can leave the Catholic Church.

As LDS I think we do a better job of showing Christ to our members by the love and concern we have for them. This is something the Catholic Church must do better, but you already have Transubstantiation and those who see the Catholic Church as tradition so often miss this beautiful doctrine.

Again, I spend a great deal of time refuting what I consider to be unfounded anti-Mormonism arguments (I image you have seen your share of anti-Catholicism arguments too), and if you are interested in the CoJCoLDS beyond just protecting your flock there will be many who can help teach you beyond the discussion if that is your desire. But if you just want to protect your flock, I think the path is teaching Transubstantiation.

The path that I do not respect is the path of demonizing the CoJCoLDS. Catholics who have a historical precedent for their beliefs and are not named after those who protested the historical church do not need to demonstrate the flaws in other churches, Catholic can stand on history like no other church (the CoJCoLDS include) can.

Charity, TOm

TOmNossor · Feb 13, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
Don't be deceived, duende, as so many of us were. Mormonism is full of lies, changes, confusion, and lots of PR. You can't get the whole picture from their websites. Try these:

http://www.utlm.org/

http://www.concernedchristians.org/

http://www.mission2mormons.org/

I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the Gordian knot of power and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth - diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man.' - Joseph Smith, History of the Church p 78

Duende,

And now to do some of that refuting. The pictures presented at GodsWordisTrues website are as one sided as the web sites that attack the Catholic Church.

Here is some logic from some of his sites:

Thirdly, the apocrypha is accepted by various cults as well as the Catholic church as scripture. This does not make them actual scripture. Remember, the church is the discoverer of scripture, not its determiner. If it worked the other way around, then books like Readers Digest could become scripture simply because a church accepted it as so.

http://www.concernedchristians.org/reason/bible/cannon.html

Here is a few words form a former Catholic priest, Father Vajda:

"The underlying motive for this thesis," Father Vajda states in the new introduction that he has written for FARMS, "was my . . . perception that one connection between the Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lay in the fact that those who sought to deny the label 'Christian' to the LDS Church were, more often than not, the very same people who would then turn around and attempt to deny this label to the Catholic Church with the same reasons often being used in both instances to justify the conclusion. And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDSChurch as to its 'non-Christian' status were equally flawed."

When Father Vajda was a Catholic priest he wrote the above introduction for his Masters Thesis that LDS read and asked if they could publish.

I do not suggest that the websites that you are linked to are worthless, I just suggest that to understand what LDS really believe you must learn from LDS.

This is how I learned about Catholicism. It took me about 2 hours to blow through most of the silly anti-Catholic things that I found.

Unfortunately, I think getting through all the anti-Mormonism things will prolly take longer.

Charity, TOm

Doc T · Feb 13, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
Don't be deceived, duende, as so many of us were. Mormonism is full of lies, changes, confusion, and lots of PR. You can't get the whole picture from their websites.

Doc: Yeah and if Celsus would have had the internet back then you would have encouraged those investigating Christianity to check out his website too.

~

Doc T · Feb 13, 2004

TOmNossor said:
When Father Vajda was a Catholic priest...

Charity, TOm

Doc: You do know, Tom, that Father Vajda is now LDS?

~

TOmNossor · Feb 13, 2004

Doc T said:
Doc: You do know, Tom, that Father Vajda is now LDS?

Yes, I did know that Father Vajda became a LDS. A Catholic friend of mine from Washington/Oregon area confirmed this.

I am reminded of Cardinal Newman who began writing An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine as a Protestant, but before the book (it was about 200+ pages) published he had become a Catholic.

Vajda took an addition 5 years, but some similarities seem to exist.

Charity, TOm

twhite982 · Feb 13, 2004

TOmNossor said:
Yes, I did know that Father Vajda became a LDS. A Catholic friend of mine from Washington/Oregon area confirmed this.

Charity, TOm

So does Mr. Vajda live in the Oregon / Washington area or just your Catholic friend?

Tom

TOmNossor · Feb 13, 2004

twhite982 said:
So does Mr. Vajda live in the Oregon / Washington area or just your Catholic friend?

Tom

Yes, he does. But if I understand correctly, unlike the last Catholic Priest to become a LDS, Mr. Vajda is not interested in making a big deal out of his conversion.

Charity, TOm

rnmomof7 · Feb 13, 2004

duende said:
The problem we have down here is that many hispanic Catholics see Catholicisim more as a tradition than a religion. They do not attend mass regularly and do not follow the teachings of the Church. Thus, when the Mormon missionaries visit with them, they are very open to the doctrine, for in many cases they have very little understanding of the Catholic doctrine.

Que les vayan con Dios.

I did a Mission in Monterey a couple years ago. The mexicans may also be into various spiritualism ...so the Mormon doctrine is comfortable to them .

If you hope to stem the tide , you must become a knowledgeable apologist .Often the people never hear all of the doctrine..just what they might accept (the "deeper" stuff comes after they are absorbed into the group or maybe never)

These souls are placed into your care.You have a responsibility to keep the sheep out of the wolfs mouth

rnmomof7 · Feb 13, 2004

TOmNossor said:
Duende,

And now to do some of that refuting. The pictures presented at GodsWordisTrues website are as one sided as the web sites that attack the Catholic Church.

Here is some logic from some of his sites:

Thirdly, the apocrypha is accepted by various cults as well as the Catholic church as scripture. This does not make them actual scripture. Remember, the church is the discoverer of scripture, not its determiner. If it worked the other way around, then books like Readers Digest could become scripture simply because a church accepted it as so.

http://www.concernedchristians.org/reason/bible/cannon.html

Here is a few words form a former Catholic priest, Father Vajda:

"The underlying motive for this thesis," Father Vajda states in the new introduction that he has written for FARMS, "was my . . . perception that one connection between the Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lay in the fact that those who sought to deny the label 'Christian' to the LDS Church were, more often than not, the very same people who would then turn around and attempt to deny this label to the Catholic Church with the same reasons often being used in both instances to justify the conclusion. And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDSChurch as to its 'non-Christian' status were equally flawed."

When Father Vajda was a Catholic priest he wrote the above introduction for his Masters Thesis that LDS read and asked if they could publish.

I do not suggest that the websites that you are linked to are worthless, I just suggest that to understand what LDS really believe you must learn from LDS.

This is how I learned about Catholicism. It took me about 2 hours to blow through most of the silly anti-Catholic things that I found.

Unfortunately, I think getting through all the anti-Mormonism things will prolly take longer.

Charity, TOm

The apostate are all over. There are tares in every church .

So is this priest married nor so he can become a god like heavenly father?

rnmomof7 · Feb 13, 2004

TOmNossor said:
Duende,

And now to do some of that refuting. The pictures presented at GodsWordisTrues website are as one sided as the web sites that attack the Catholic Church.

Thats interesting seeing the teaching of the LDS blame the original church (read Catholic) for peverting the gospel .

Here is some logic from some of his sites:

Thirdly, the apocrypha is accepted by various cults as well as the Catholic church as scripture. This does not make them actual scripture. Remember, the church is the discoverer of scripture, not its determiner. If it worked the other way around, then books like Readers Digest could become scripture simply because a church accepted it as so.

http://www.concernedchristians.org/reason/bible/cannon.html

Here is a few words form a former Catholic priest, Father Vajda:

"The underlying motive for this thesis," Father Vajda states in the new introduction that he has written for FARMS, "was my . . . perception that one connection between the Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lay in the fact that those who sought to deny the label 'Christian' to the LDS Church were, more often than not, the very same people who would then turn around and attempt to deny this label to the Catholic Church with the same reasons often being used in both instances to justify the conclusion. And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDSChurch as to its 'non-Christian' status were equally flawed."

When Father Vajda was a Catholic priest he wrote the above introduction for his Masters Thesis that LDS read and asked if they could publish.

I do not suggest that the websites that you are linked to are worthless, I just suggest that to understand what LDS really believe you must learn from LDS.

This is how I learned about Catholicism. It took me about 2 hours to blow through most of the silly anti-Catholic things that I found.

Unfortunately, I think getting through all the anti-Mormonism things will prolly take longer.

Charity, TOm

I trust it is not your attempt here to prosetlize this Deacon .

Indeed He does need to read YOU sources.

Here is the Gospel principles off of the LDS website

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html

Here he can learn that satan and jesus were brothers , and that the 'heavenly father" was once a man like him and that he too can be a god .

A man with any Christian backround will read it and see the truth .

BAChristian · Feb 13, 2004

Duende, if you ever feel like talking to a Catholic brother about the faith, then please feel free to PM me...

You can't become a deacon in the Catholic Church until you're 35...do you have special permission from your Bishop of your Diocese or something?

On a more personal note, please don't draw me into Mormon vs. "the rest of the world" debates. I won't partake of them. And I'd encourage everyone here to try to foster good, Christian relationships.

TOmNossor · Feb 13, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
Thats interesting seeing the teaching of the LDS blame the original church (read Catholic) for peverting the gospel .

I trust it is not your attempt here to prosetlize this Deacon .

Indeed He does need to read YOU sources.

Here is the Gospel principles off of the LDS website

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html

Here he can learn that satan and jesus were brothers , and that the 'heavenly father" was once a man like him and that he too can be a god .

A man with any Christian backround will read it and see the truth .

Rnmomof7,

I personally do not think you have any choice but to show why the CoJCoLDS is false. After all our historic roots go back to 1830 and yours go no farther than the 15th Century. For you to be correct, you must show we are wrong and the Catholics are wrong.

However, one of my Catholic friends chastised another Catholic for saying the same thing you just did.

He said:

I am against the idea that we may smear other religions for being weird, and it was in that context that we may compromise ourselves. If you are weird because you think the Devil is Jesus brother, then we are weird because we digest our God. Let's just reject religion because it can be made to sound funny.

I take the position that the more non-Catholics agree with Catholics, the less likely there was an apostasy that would authorize a reformation or restoration.

TOm:

Now, he was speaking to Catholics here. But surely you must realize that having Jesus Christ who never sinned die for all the sinful folks that exist does not smack of normal as the world would see things. Christianity is weird.

He said at a different time:

If the Catholic Church is not true, it seems very reasonable to me that Conciliar decrees, ex cathedra pronouncements, and accepted official teachings found in the catechisms are likewise untrue. The reason I believe in Catholic doctrine is because I believe in the Catholic Church. Therefore, I would expect those who would submit claims challenging Catholic authority to deny core Catholic doctrines. If I could ever believe that the Catholic Church is wrong, I doubt that the answer is among the Protestants who offer so much that remains familiar.

Rather, I would look to people like Mormons or Moslems without expecting challengers to the Catholic faith, to hold to core Catholic beliefs. What prevents me from belieiving that Jesus is Satan's spirit brother (whatever that implies????)? The Catholic Church. What prevents me from believing that God created the world out of pre-existing matter? The Catholic Church. I paraphrase but Cardinal Newman once said that he could be Arian if not for Catholic Tradition. We Catholics know how malleable and susceptible the meanings of Scripture are of doctrinal deviation, apart from our own Apostolic Tradition. It is no difficulty for Catholics to admit that it should be unexpected for them to arrive at developed Catholic truth merely through reading some of the same Scripture.

Therefore, any true and effective apologetic in favor of Catholic claims against the Latter Day Saints will allow them the privilege of defining for themselves the nature of God, Christ, the Church, and the LDS Cosmos. To point out the mere fact that it differs is hardly a point in our favor. We might succeed in keeping a few of our own by making LDS sound bizarre, but this is an unfair tactic that costs those who use it their own integrity. Unfamiliar things can be made to sound weird. If I had more time I would argue that whatever the truth is, it is a little weird. Let the Protestants use such methods. We are not so hard pressed as that!

TOm:

He and our other Catholic friend have caused me to pause and evaluate what I really believe. If the truth is to be found someplace outside the CoJCoLDS it will be found among people who can disagree without trying to make me sound like a weirdo.

Charity, TOm

rnmomof7 · Feb 13, 2004

Doc T said:
Doc: They are indeed Christians as defined by any standard use of the word. And they do not worship a different [G]od and [J]esus. That is like trying to claim that when I went back to California when I hadn't been there in 10 years and exclaimed, "Boy California is sure different" that you come along and try to say that it is not California that I visited, just because it is different. Just because two people have a differing understanding of something does not mean that they are not speaking of the same thing.

Their prophet said they have a different jesus .

So it seems that he agrees with me

Duende · Feb 13, 2004

BAchristian said:
Duende, if you ever feel like talking to a Catholic brother about the faith, then please feel free to PM me...

You can't become a deacon in the Catholic Church until you're 35...do you have special permission from your Bishop of your Diocese or something?

Let's just say that to avoid possible detection by fellow servants in my area who also use the Net, my listed age may not be entirely correct. My actual age, and birthday, would likely give me away and might raise eyebrows. Deacons aren't supposed to be meeting with Mormon missionaries and should probably not be posting messages in an Unorthodox Theological Doctrine section of a non-Catholic website either. Besides, sister, one may become a deacon at 25 if one vows to not marry. The 35-year rule applies only to married men. Whether I am married or not, and my actual age, shall remain for the purposes herein, a "mystery."

TOmNossor · Feb 13, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
Their prophet said they have a different jesus .

rnmomof7 said:
So it seems that he agrees with me

You do not do justice to the words of the Prophet. He said that LDS have a different understanding of Jesus than the historical understanding.

We believe in the same Jesus who died on Calvarys Cross and who suffered in the Garden.

I do not think that is a fair way to characterize the words of the prophet. He was saying that Jesus Christ stood next to Heavenly Father in the sacred grove. This is not something the Augustinian Trinity could do. (But protestant Plantinga's social Trinity could).

Hinckley's words:

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p.7 )

Charity, TOm

twhite982 · Feb 13, 2004

rnmomof7 said:
Their prophet said they have a different jesus .

So it seems that he agrees with me

As in a different understanding or a completely different being?

Tom

Duende · Feb 13, 2004

twhite982 said:
As in a different understanding or a completely different being?

Tom

What is all this talk of a different "Jesus?" Are we inferring that because the Mormons believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are separate that they have a different Jesus?

BAChristian · Feb 13, 2004

duende said:
Besides, sister, one may become a deacon at 25 if one vows to not marry. The 35-year rule applies only to married men. Whether I am married or not, and my actual age, shall remain for the purposes herein, a "mystery."

Thank you for the clarification. You are correct:

"An unmarried man must not be admitted to the permanent diaconate unless he has completed his 25th year, and has manifested a desire to remain unmarried (Canons 1031[2] and 1037). In accord with Canon 87 the local ordinary could dispense from the age requirement within his territory for a just cause for a period up to a one year (cf: Canon 1031[4]). "

BTW, just FYI, I'm not a sister...

Duende · Feb 13, 2004

BAchristian said:
Thank you for the clarification. You are correct:

"An unmarried man must not be admitted to the permanent diaconate unless he has completed his 25th year, and has manifested a desire to remain unmarried (Canons 1031[2] and 1037). In accord with Canon 87 the local ordinary could dispense from the age requirement within his territory for a just cause for a period up to a one year (cf: Canon 1031[4]). "

BTW, just FYI, I'm not a sister...

I sincerely apologize. I am most embarrased. I am confusing people in here, as I do not yet know them. I just pay closer attencion to the symbols. So sorry.

Met with the Missionaries?

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