Met with the Missionaries?

skylark1 said:

I would appreciate it if anyone who is LDS would address this question: Is it LDS doctrine that choices made in a pre-mortal existance can affect blessings in this life?


Thanks.

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I think I mentioned this to you in earlier posts.

It is implied from scriptures, Bible included, that blessings are extended upon what seems no earthly merit of our own. What I mean by this is the example of Israel whom recieved numerous blessings of the Lord only because they were born into one of the twelve tribes. This to me implies merit of these blessings prior to mortality.

Tom

And you have many instructors in many different situations. Who knows where the instructor who told me aboue premortals and black received his information?

twhite982 said:

I think I mentioned this to you in earlier posts.

It is implied from scriptures, Bible included, that blessings are extended upon what seems no earthly merit of our own. What I mean by this is the example of Israel whom recieved numerous blessings of the Lord only because they were born into one of the twelve tribes. This to me implies merit of these blessings prior to mortality.

Tom

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There is no verse that implies such a thing. Rather, the contrary. God made Adam's body first before Adam became a living soul.

1 Corinthians 15
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


As for blessings, even heathens were sometimes blessed(as with children or rain):


Psalm 127
3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them

Matthew 5
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Romans 5
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


And sometimes He especially blesses those who delight themselves in Him.

Psalm 68
9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.

I've never met anyone who deserves eternal life, self included. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. We deserve spiritual death.

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This lets me know that God is indeed sovereign!

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

GodsWordisTrue,

I'm speaking in terms of Predestination / Foreordination, and not trying to support pre-existance in this case.

Tom

twhite said, "This to me implies merit of these blessings prior to mortality."
Remove the word merit and that might make sense. Unborn babies are equal.

GodsWordisTrue said:

twhite said, "This to me implies merit of these blessings prior to mortality."
Remove the word merit and that might make sense. Unborn babies are equal.

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You will need to explain how that makes sense without the word merit.

Tom

Tom, do you believe that due to a person's righteousness in the pre-existence, he will receive a certain calling or blessing in this life?

I do not believe that any people, other than Adam and Eve, existed before they were conceived by human parents. We all descend from Adam. Our spirits did not exist before conception. Of course, God knew that we were going to be born and everything that would happen in our lives. We are not born to certain parents and in a certain country because we deserve something better than another person.

twhite982 said:

LDS also believe that Jesus is eternal.

I said Jesus was the first spiritually begotten of God.

LDS believe that intelligences are eternal as well and this would mean Jesus is eternal. Jesus was the greatest of them ALL.

Additionally we have numerous scripture that state Jesus is the eternal God, always was, is, and will be.

I can't go too much further into detail since we don't have much beyond that.

Tom

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As part of the Godhead, Jesus, by default, has always and will always exist. The same cannot be said for human beings. I Corinthians 15:42ff makes that abundantly clear.
Quote :"42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The "pre-existance" of Mormondom fails to pass the above test.

Sven

Ammon said:

One of the many books that should have been in the Bible, but were either left out or unavailable (i.e., lost) to the Catholic Church when it compiled the Bible.

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In your reference to the book of Moses regarding Enoch. Have you any idea why the LDS church doesn't have the book of Enoch in their canon? Personally, I do not believe that it is scripture and it has been written in three parts. The first part was written about 200 years before the birth of Christ, the other two parts where written about 200 AD and 400 AD, respectively. Ironically, all three parts were written in three different languages and definately not written by Enoch.

Anyway, I wander... sorry. If the book of Moses refers to Enoch, wouldn't it stand to reason that the book of Enoch would hold some vaildity to your faith?

Sven

twhite982 said:

LDS also believe that Jesus is eternal.

I said Jesus was the first spiritually begotten of God.

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This is what divides evangelical or orthodox Christianity from the LDS church. Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are co-eternal with the personhood of the Father.

LDS believe that intelligences are eternal as well and this would mean Jesus is eternal. Jesus was the greatest of them ALL.

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Please read I Corinthians 15 42-46.

Additionally we have numerous scripture that state Jesus is the eternal God, always was, is, and will be.

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Isaiah states that Jesus is called, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Sven

skylark1 said:

I would appreciate it if anyone who is LDS would address this question: Is it LDS doctrine that choices made in a pre-mortal existance can affect blessings in this life?


Thanks.

Click to expand...

FB: I think that God put us where we could be tested and learn the best way. I don't think that I was any more valiant than anyone else, but that in order for me to learn the things I needed to learn, I was put where I was put. Remember that any person who is sincere and listens to the voice of the shepherds voice. Whether it be in this life or the next. Those of you that have a chance to accept the restored gospel in this life and do not, will at sometime before the judgement be taught the gospel and be given that chance. Your blessings will be limited before the judgement but if you continue on the path of progression, it will not limit you for an eternity. But the character you have in this life, is the same character you had before this life and you will carry it with you to the next. So even though you may not accept the restoration in this life, the chance that you accept it in the next before the judgement is not great. The important thing is to humble yourself and ask God if a restoration took place. The promise is that he will answer you through the power of the Holy Ghost. If you have not taken to task this promise I would advise you to at least make the attempt.

I know I said I was not going to write any more, but I will if I think it is not answered how I understand things. It is arrogant to think that God chose a person to be born in into LDS family because they were better in the life before. Because I know of people who are not LDS who are much more spiritual than myself. We are not the sole ownership of the Holy Ghost. Any person of any religion has access to the Holy Ghost if what they are seeking is good.

twhite982 said:

SkyLark,


There is a statement in the D&C (13, 124, 128) regarding the Aaronic priesthood being taken from the earth when the sons of Levi offer an acceptable offering in righteousness. The statement that Ammon raised brought this to mind.

But, let me state again, so everyone understands:

1.) There is NO scriptural support for blacks being "neutral" in heaven.

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There is "NO scriptural support" for the theology for "pre-existance." Furthermore, even if there were, these "pre-existant beings" are claimed to be spirits waiting for a time to come to earth to obtain a body in order to partake in the LDS eternal progression. How can a spirit have a color if it doesn't have a body?

2.) There is NO scriptural support for the last soul of the blacks that were neutral to die and then they could recieve the priesthood.

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That one got me, also. I was around when that "revelation" happened and I heard noting about what you stated above.

3.) We DO know what happened in regards to the priesthood ban, but NOT why.

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We do? Do you have any idea how arkward it was to attempt to tell my African-American army buddy that he could be a Mormon, but couldn't be a full member because of the color of his skin???? :o This was in 1969, shortly after Martin Luther King was assassinated. What a dastardly theology. I only wish I were wiser then. I would have left that church if I weren't so blinded and Yankee. I grew up in an area that I wasn't even aware of the racial injustices practiced in this land.

4.) I also made statements that to me concretely rule out racism as the reason for the ban.

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Brigham Young made statements made some that strictly reinforced it.

5.) It is also clear that those in the pre-existance were valient enough to come to this earth. 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out. So the remaining 2/3 made the "cut-off"

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Are you sure you are speaking of spirits looking for bodies or at angels?

6.) Whatever happened in pre-existance we cam to this earth as innocent through the future atonement of Jesus. Foreordination and predestination still played a part, which provided opportunity.

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I think we have a different concept of foreordained and predestined, but I haven't the time to address it right now.

Ammon may have a different view as to what constitutes official doctrine and our standard by which we judge ourselves and our church, but I feel the strongest evidences point towards LDS scripture and official statements made by the 1st Presidency, and accepted by the Qof12 and the general church body.

The LDS just like anyone else when little information is given on a subject, especially when its as touchy as the priesthood ban will try to give answers that will satisfy those with honest questions. The problem is that in doing so they tend to extend themselves beyond the boundaries of what scripture and official statements dictate as our standard of judgement.

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The problem with that was the racist image that the ban implied. I, for one, am glad I couldn't explain this to my army friend. I can't, for the life of me, wonder why anyone, but specifically an African-American would want to be associated with an organization with such a checkered past. Just my opinion.

Enquiring minds do want to know, is a powerful pill, but as another cliche goes, curiosity killed the cat.

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And satisfaction brought it back

I'm not denegrating any of the LDS leaders, but trying to explain the best I can why there have been many questionable statements.

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Just a thought here and not meant to be insulting. Perhaps the problem you are having is that there are many questionable doctrines or practices that just feel wrong, therefore, it is troublesome to explain it.

Sven

Hi Fatboys,

I am glad that you are still here and still writing. I agree that it would be arrogant to think that God would choose a person to be born into an LDS family because they were more righteous in a pre-existant life. But from some of what has been posted here, it does not seem like this belief would conflict with LDS doctrine.

I was thinking about this this earlier this morning. If LDS believe that blessings are poured out or withheld because of our actions in a pre-existent life, then it seems like when anything bad happens to someone then they could rationalize that it is the person's fault because they were less righteous. It sounds like Job's friends asking him what sin he committed to cause so many problems in his life. It seems like this type of reasoning would lack compassion, and would cause those who seem to have been born into better circumstances, and have had fewer problems in their lives, to become prideful and think that they are better than others. These words in the US Constitution would have little meaning: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. . .

Do you agree with this what twhite wrote?
Do you agree with implications that have been made that people can be born blind because of sin in a pre-existant life? I am not trying to twist anyone's words, I am just very disturbed by this belief that blessings are withheld because of bad choices in a pre-existant life.

twhite982 said:

Direct revelation to govern the church will only come through the prophet and president of the church

I don't know the exact specifics, but I understand that when they gather and discuss the revelation, they all must individualy also recieve confirmation through prayer and all must unanimously agree and accept it.

It then is presented to the general body of the church for acceptance.

Any LDS out there please correct me if I'm wrong.

Tom

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That is interesting it almost sound like a church council (the source of the creeds )

twhite982 said:

Daneel you've misunderstood me.

Its not a council to discuss which points stay and which go. Its to get confirmation from God that the revelation given to the prophet is from God and not just opinion.

The general church body has the same responsibility to get the same confirmation of the revelation.

This keeps an accountability for all.


It seems strange that you raise this point:
since I understand that this is basically how the books of the Bible were compiled and decided on which books were to be included in the cannon and which were to be left out.


Anyways, I am grateful for this method of verifying revelation from the Lord as I believe ALL men make mistakes. I feel more comfortable when 15 can unanimously agree and present the revelation also to the general body for acceptance.

Tom

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Yes, all men make mistakes. So perhaps all the LDS confirm new revelations in order to not get questioned by their peers. A bunch of robots raise their hands in sacrament meeting.

So these councils were evil for discussing the word of God and praying for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit? I see where you're coming from. How many were on this council? Did it have to be fifteen in order for God to reveal His truth?

I was told by a descendant of Joseph Smith, who was also a temple Mormon, that I must have been very valiant in the pre-existence, for Heavenly Father to place me in a non-LDS family knowing that I would join the LDS church anyway.

skylark1 said:

Hi Fatboys,

I am glad that you are still here and still writing. I agree that it would be arrogant to think that God would choose a person to be born into an LDS family because they were more righteous in a pre-existant life. But from some of what has been posted here, it does not seem like this belief would conflict with LDS doctrine.

I was thinking about this this earlier this morning. If LDS believe that blessings are poured out or withheld because of our actions in a pre-existent life, then it seems like when anything bad happens to someone then they could rationalize that it is the person's fault because they were less righteous. It sounds like Job's friends asking him what sin he committed to cause so many problems in his life. It seems like this type of reasoning would lack compassion, and would cause those who seem to have been born into better circumstances, and have had fewer problems in their lives, to become prideful and think that they are better than others. These words in the US Constitution would have little meaning: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. . .

Do you agree with this what twhite wrote?

It is implied from scriptures, Bible included, that blessings are extended upon what seems no earthly merit of our own. What I mean by this is the example of Israel whom recieved numerous blessings of the Lord only because they were born into one of the twelve tribes. This to me implies merit of these blessings prior to mortality.

​

Do you agree with implications that have been made that people can be born blind because of sin in a pre-existant life? I am not trying to twist anyone's words, I am just very disturbed by this belief that blessings are withheld because of bad choices in a pre-existant life.

Click to expand...

I believe that things such as blindness are given to us or allowed to happen so that we may overcome our mortal infirmities by turning to God. The Lord has something he wants each of us to learn. That is why we are each blessed with certain weaknesses. And I say blessed because if we did not have weaknesses we would not fully understand our fallen state enough to turn to our Heavenly Father.

As far as pre-existance, I don't know. The vail has been, in my case...and everyone elses, effectively pulled over my eyes. And for a reason, if we had prior memory to of our Celestial state, again what would we learn as to the lessons the Lord has in store for us. Do I believe that some revelation can be given on such matters. Yes, but only when the Lord feels such things expedient for us to know. Hopefully that is honest and straight forward enough. I used to think I wanted to know, but that is selfish, it would destroy my ability to progress through trial and faith and truly concquer the flesh. ANd we all know who doesn't want us to do that.

elderbell said:

I believe that things such as blindness are given to us or allowed to happen so that we may overcome our mortal infirmities by turning to God. The Lord has something he wants each of us to learn. That is why we are each blessed with certain weaknesses. And I say blessed because if we did not have weaknesses we would not fully understand our fallen state enough to turn to our Heavenly Father.

As far as pre-existance, I don't know. The vail has been, in my case...and everyone elses, effectively pulled over my eyes. And for a reason, if we had prior memory to of our Celestial state, again what would we learn as to the lessons the Lord has in store for us. Do I believe that some revelation can be given on such matters. Yes, but only when the Lord feels such things expedient for us to know. Hopefully that is honest and straight forward enough. I used to think I wanted to know, but that is selfish, it would destroy my ability to progress through trial and faith and truly concquer the flesh. ANd we all know who doesn't want us to do that.

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I don't think so. Blindness is a result of the fall. We're all subject to various birth defects and illnesses.

There are many blind people who never come to know the Lord. My father suffered with polio and post polio sequila. That didn't bring about faith in God. Illness exists because of Adam's sin; it isn't a gift from God.

skylark1 said:

Hi Fatboys,

I am glad that you are still here and still writing. I agree that it would be arrogant to think that God would choose a person to be born into an LDS family because they were more righteous in a pre-existant life. But from some of what has been posted here, it does not seem like this belief would conflict with LDS doctrine.

I was thinking about this this earlier this morning. If LDS believe that blessings are poured out or withheld because of our actions in a pre-existent life, then it seems like when anything bad happens to someone then they could rationalize that it is the person's fault because they were less righteous. It sounds like Job's friends asking him what sin he committed to cause so many problems in his life. It seems like this type of reasoning would lack compassion, and would cause those who seem to have been born into better circumstances, and have had fewer problems in their lives, to become prideful and think that they are better than others. These words in the US Constitution would have little meaning: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. . .

Do you agree with this what twhite wrote?

It is implied from scriptures, Bible included, that blessings are extended upon what seems no earthly merit of our own. What I mean by this is the example of Israel whom recieved numerous blessings of the Lord only because they were born into one of the twelve tribes. This to me implies merit of these blessings prior to mortality.

​

Do you agree with implications that have been made that people can be born blind because of sin in a pre-existant life? I am not trying to twist anyone's words, I am just very disturbed by this belief that blessings are withheld because of bad choices in a pre-existant life.

Click to expand...

FB: By that reasoning, it would seem that those who follow the WofW perfectly would never get sick, always be healthy. Yet I have had friends die from cancer who had never in their lives let coffee or alcohol pass their lips. I think that we are to live here and if we abuse substances that would affect our bodies, then we have to pay the price. If we are obedient, it gives us the best chance at not only showing faith and developing faith in what prophets have said, but that if followed can help us be as healthy as we can be in mortality.

You can transfer this type of thinking into all aspect of obedience. Although there are some who want to believe that they had a special place reserved for them in a LDS home, that does not take into account the billions of deserving individuals who did not have this blessing, and who, in my own opinion, are far more spiritual than myself. I struggle with spirituality, and have to work on it constantly. That does not mean that those who are not spiritual and non LDS do not have their own personal struggles. It is a common belief that there were no neutral spirits in the pre existance. If you did not stand for God, and did not care to voice your opinion you were against God. I don't know if I agree with that either, but that is my own personal opinion. I think that if you are not here in mortality, you were against the plan of God. I can not explain why I was born into an LDS envroniment. I do know that I have been active in the church for 30 years, and my wife is miss perfect active. Yet we have a child who does not follow this path. You would think that having the same character in Heaven as we do here would mean that you would catch the same vision and feelings of right and wrong in this life. I think we are here to learn certain things in this life. Things that would help us progress. Does not matter where we learn them, whether we know the gospel or not. We are all going to be given the chance to learn the gospel before the judgement, but just as those of us who are given talents, if we increase on those talents, then we are good and faithful servants. We also have to accept the gospel in order for the plan to help us be what was intended for us.

GodsWordisTrue said:

Tom, do you believe that due to a person's righteousness in the pre-existence, he will receive a certain calling or blessing in this life?

I do not believe that any people, other than Adam and Eve, existed before they were conceived by human parents. We all descend from Adam. Our spirits did not exist before conception. Of course, God knew that we were going to be born and everything that would happen in our lives. We are not born to certain parents and in a certain country because we deserve something better than another person.

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I think that pre-destination and foreordination is taught in the Bible very clearly. Whether you want to take it back to the pre-existance is irrelevant to the point of what I'm trying to make.

This pre-destination implies blessings / callings for no apparent reason. This is my opinion, but I don't believe its because of earning them, but more of capability to handle them. A part of it may have been due to righteousness or something else, but for the most part I think its due to capabiltity.

In this life we will never undrstand God's full view of things and we will not know why some are born into different homes and different environments and at different times in this world's history. Its is clear that God has "specialized" with a particular group and have given them opportunity for blessings all the while restricting it to others.

This issue is not something that I claim to fully understand. What I have faith in is that God is orchestrating His plan and have given ALL opportunity for what they are capable of. In the end we will ALL be judged by our own personal circumstances and the choices we made from that environment.

Tom