Met with the Missionaries?

MagusAlbertus · Feb 19, 2004

Somebody has to be "running the show".

a quarum of like-minded Christians come together and are free to leave at their will, what with every congregation being the one-true-church, as wharever they are 2 or 3 in his name so is Jesus.

this is the souther-babtist convention *largest US denomination* websight.

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/default.asp

now i don't agree with every thing they say, to do that would mean i don't have a personal relationship with Christ, but i do think they are spot-on for the vast majority of things.

calgal · Feb 19, 2004

Ammon said:
I am a financial clerk for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There is more oversight of finances in the Church than in my law firm. They are highly scrutinzed. And the Prophet is not "paid handsomely."

IF the financials are "scrutinized" then why is the congregation NOT allowed to see the local or organizational financials? Note; Not a single monthly, quarterly or annual report has been filed by the Corporation of the President (LDS holding co) since 1959 for the Mormon church. Why are the members not allowed access to this information? My church does allow and encourage the members to be involved in creating the budget along with the members of our board of trustees and Session members. In fact, the meetings of both boards are open to the members. Why is it that the LDS church which certainly has many qualified CPA's as members refuses to allow access to their financials to anyone other than the INTERNAL auditors and COB employees?

baker · Feb 20, 2004

skylark1 said:
Ammon or anyone LDS,

The Bible does not mention "black skin" as a mark on Cain. The LDS scripture that was provided does not say "black skin." How do you know that seed being black means "black skin?"
"And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them." Moses 7:22

[/i]

I am also curious how you know this. Could you please provide a source? Is this an official LDS teaching or is it just your opinion?

Calling on Ammon (or any lds poster who will support his position),

Ammon, pardon my political incorrectness here, but we're tired of ya. You come and make statements and will never provide back-up. When the questions get tough, you go radio silent or your words are totally static. You whine like a trapped cat but provide no intellectual support for your comments.

I guess I'm going out on a limb here, but if the other lds poster disagree with me here, come to his defense. Start supporting or defending his answers here or tell him to get a day job.

Given all his accusatory private messages, I'm calling him out on the floor with a separate thread that he can do the same to me on.

Enough is enough. Come and quit hiding from beyond the veil.

See my separate thread.

MagusAlbertus · Feb 20, 2004

but if the other lds poster disagree with me here, come to his defense.

HEY i call for any LDSer who DISAGREES with him to!

twhite982 · Feb 20, 2004

MagusAlbertus said:
HEY i call for any LDSer who DISAGREES with him to!

This is a touchy subject with way too much speculation going around.

Since I don't consider myself "studied enough" in this arena, I don't have any personal comments to make.

There are of course LDS scholars who've addressed this if you only want an answer. If you're looking just to back Ammon or another LDS poster into a corner, I think your motives are wrong.

Either way, on this issue I hate to put my neck out there since there is not too much concrete on this.

It is clear though from LDS history that a ban on the priesthood was in effect starting with Joseph Smith. The racism card flies out the window when its considered that Joseph ordained Elijah Abel to the priesthood. Additionally Joseph made several statements in favor of the blacks in a time and place where this kind of attitude was not welcome.

As I said before, we do understand the what, but the why was not given, nor really the exact when.

This is really all I can say on this.

But if anyone cares I will provide links to various scholars who have already addressed this issue.

Tom

baker · Feb 20, 2004

twhite982 said:
This is a touchy subject with way too much speculation going around.

Since I don't consider myself "studied enough" in this arena, I don't have any personal comments to make.

There are of course LDS scholars who've addressed this if you only want an answer. If you're looking just to back Ammon or another LDS poster into a corner, I think your motives are wrong.

Either way, on this issue I hate to put my neck out there since there is not too much concrete on this.

It is clear though from LDS history that a ban on the priesthood was in effect starting with Joseph Smith. The racism card flies out the window when its considered that Joseph ordained Elijah Abel to the priesthood. Additionally Joseph made several statements in favor of the blacks in a time and place where this kind of attitude was not welcome.

As I said before, we do understand the what, but the why was not given, nor really the exact when.

This is really all I can say on this.

But if anyone cares I will provide links to various scholars who have already addressed this issue.

Tom

Sorry Twhite,

Nothing personal, but this guy is a joke. He's crass and clueless. I've had it with his PM's. His statements are fictional at best.

If he want's to defend himself, fine, let him do it. If you want to, that's ok too, go with your spirit. I'm tired of his adolecense.

Feel free to criticize me.

MagusAlbertus · Feb 20, 2004

As I said before, we do understand the what, but the why was not given, nor really the exact when.

This is really all I can say on this.

You deserve a lot of respect for being a standup guy and saying what you believe.

Hey, Im a Baptist and a number of them where racist in the past, i don't think you can down-cast an entire group because of the mistakes of their groups past. So dont think that your churches past makes you a racist, Im sure your smarter than that.

That whole line about the blacks coming into the world at a lower spiritual level than everyone else is obviously bunk, right?

I'm tired of his adolecense.

Feel free to criticize me.

have temperance brother.

baker · Feb 20, 2004

twhite982 said:
It is clear though from LDS history that a ban on the priesthood was in effect starting with Joseph Smith. The racism card flies out the window when its considered that Joseph ordained Elijah Abel to the priesthood. Additionally Joseph made several statements in favor of the blacks in a time and place where this kind of attitude was not welcome.

On one hand it's clear, on the other Smith let Able have the priesthood. Why was Abel's black skin different from others.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when at fist we practice....."

twhite982 · Feb 20, 2004

baker said:
On one hand it's clear, on the other Smith let Able have the priesthood. Why was Abel's black skin different from others.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when at fist we practice....."

It is strong evidence that Joseph Smith is NOT rascist.

As I understand it Joseph much later told Mr. Abel he could not use his priesthood. I need to verify this, but this is how I recall it.

I don't know what happened during that period, but I feel confident in saying Joseph demonstrated during a very pro-slavery period and location that he went against the grain and was not rascist. I'm sure he took alot of flack from the outsiders of the church and maybe some from within.

Elijah Abel was not different than others. Like I've been saying without the why its hard to say. Yet it seems undisputed that he did recieve the priesthood and used it. For how long I don't recall.

I don't expect you to believe me, but this is what I found as I've searched the issue for myself.

Tom

twhite982 · Feb 20, 2004

MagusAlbertus said:
That whole line about the blacks coming into the world at a lower spiritual level than everyone else is obviously bunk, right?

There is NO scriptural basis for it.

LDS scripture states that ALL were born into this world innocent through the future atonement of Christ. This means whatever mistakes were made should've been taken care of.

Scripture does talk of pre-destination / foreordination, but this only provides opportunity and doesn't guarantee anything.

Tom

Rescued One · Feb 20, 2004

Ammon said:
One of the many books that should have been in the Bible, but were either left out or unavailable (i.e., lost) to the Catholic Church when it compiled the Bible.

The Pearl of Great Price contains the following:

1. THE BOOK OF MOSES "An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet, June 1830February 1831."

2. THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM "A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt."

3. JOSEPH SMITH MATTHEW. "An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23:39 and chapter 24."

4. JOSEPH SMITH HISTORY. "EXTRACTS FROM THE HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH, THE PROPHET. History of the Church, Vol.1, Chapters 1-5."

5. THE ARTICLES OF FAITH. A list of 13 specific beliefs of the LDS Church written in 1842.

Where are the Egyptian papyri that Joseph Smith used when he translated the

Book of Abraham?

Joseph Smith bought a collection of Egyptian mummies and papyrus scrolls in 1835. One of these scrolls became the basis for Smiths Book of Abraham. After his death his wife retained ownership of the artifacts. Since she did not come to Utah with the LDS pioneers the papyri stayed in the Midwest. They eventually were acquired by a museum. The LDS Church acquired the Joseph Smith collection of papyri from the Metropolitan Museum in New York City in 1967. They are now housed at the LDS archives in Salt Lake City, Utah.

http://www.utlm.org/faqs/faqgeneral.htm#7

Rescued One · Feb 20, 2004

Flaws in the Pearl of Great Price

by Jerald and Sandra Tanner

Details many serious problems including Joseph Smith's extensive plagiarism from both the Old and New Testaments of the King James Bible. Also has a photo reprint of the first edition of the Pearl of Great Price showing the changes made in the text.
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/ub018_flawsinthepearlofgreatprice.htm

MagusAlbertus · Feb 20, 2004

thanks, but apparently if JSmith actually did copy the lines out of the JKV it's all part of the divine inspiration...

Someone who will say "even if it was pulled out is ear it's still my faith" are lot to demonic possession by the BMs brainwashing ways.

twhite982 · Feb 20, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
<B>
Where are the Egyptian papyri that Joseph Smith used when he translated the</B>Book of Abraham?
Joseph Smith bought a collection of Egyptian mummies and papyrus scrolls in 1835. One of these scrolls became the basis for Smiths Book of Abraham. After his death his wife retained ownership of the artifacts. Since she did not come to Utah with the LDS pioneers the papyri stayed in the Midwest. They eventually were acquired by a museum. The LDS Church acquired the Joseph Smith collection of papyri from the Metropolitan Museum in New York City in 1967. They are now housed at the LDS archives in Salt Lake City, Utah.
http://www.utlm.org/faqs/faqgeneral.htm#7

Your obviously only telling half the story.

All or even a small part of the "egyptian" papyri are lost, most in a fire. There are a few fragments that were donated by the museum of Chicago to the church (I pretty sure it was Chicago, I could be wrong). These are what remains.

Tom

happyinhisgrace · Feb 20, 2004

twhite982 said:
Your obviously only telling half the story.

All or even a small part of the "egyptian" papyri are lost, most in a fire. There are a few fragments that were donated by the museum of Chicago to the church (I pretty sure it was Chicago, I could be wrong). These are what remains.

Tom

Tom, have you seriously investigated the original of the egyptian papyri that JS used? I have another book I would be happy to send you that talked only about this specific topic and goes into quite a bit of detail on it.

Grace (the girl who loves to share her books)

AMMON · Feb 20, 2004

baker said:
Sorry Twhite,

Nothing personal, but this guy is a joke. He's crass and clueless. I've had it with his PM's. His statements are fictional at best.

If he want's to defend himself, fine, let him do it. If you want to, that's ok too, go with your spirit. I'm tired of his adolecense.

Feel free to criticize me.

What are you talking about? Have I EVER PM'ed you? I have no record of it in my outbox, and I don't remember doing so. Perhaps the system deleted them. Please PM me regarding these alleged PM's. And your ad hominem attack is not well used.

skylark1 · Feb 20, 2004

Ammon,

I hope that you will respond to this question. What is this comment based on? LDS doctrine, an LDS prophet or apostles's statements, or your opinion? I would geniunely like to know.

We do not know who that last soul was; but whoever it was died about the time that President Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet in 1978, received the revelation.

Thank you.

AMMON · Feb 20, 2004

skylark1 said:
Ammon,

I hope that you will respond to this question. What is this comment based on? LDS doctrine, an LDS prophet or apostles's statements, or your opinion? I would geniunely like to know.

[/i][/i]

Thank you.

Training I received as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in the Missionary Training Center, Provo, Utah, October 1990.

skylark1 · Feb 20, 2004

I hope that you could be a little more clear. You had already said that you were taught this at the MTC in 1990. Was this teaching based on LDS doctrine or someone's opinion? I would like to know.

Thanks.

AMMON · Feb 20, 2004

skylark1 said:
I hope that you could be a little more clear. You had already said that you were taught this at the MTC in 1990. Was this teaching based on LDS doctrine or someone's opinion? I would like to know.

Thanks.

That is a good question. One goes through a massive amount of training in the 9 weeks one spends there. I clearly remember this teaching, but I do not remember if it was prefaced as "official doctrine." Nevertheless, in my opinion, the Church is very careful to ensure that only official doctrine is taught in the MTC. I'm sorry I can't be more specific. As a 19-year old boy, I did not think to ask the instuctor whether such was official doctrine or not. I was in the MTC; I assumed it was. *shrugs*

Met with the Missionaries?

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