Messianics and communion

[flyfishing]

Hi i was watching a christian program today and they were ministering on the LORDS table. This was something the disciples praticed regularly. Do mesiianics observe regularly? Are there special signifances to the meal that help you understand the sacrifice in a deeper way?? Thanks..

 

[ShirChadash]

I'm not priviledged to be in a Messianic congregation, so my experience is very limited.

But I wanted to mention that I *think* most Messianics see the Pesach (Passover) meal as the most accurate or full expression of communion, since that last supper was a Passover meal sorry: maybe some don't agree with that... ? I apologize if I am speaking out of turn!).

The Messianic symbolism of the full Passover Seder is one of the most awesome things to explore. While a Seder can be seen as a daunting lot of work, or too long? by many Gentiles, I have to say it is so worth buying a Haggadah (a... guide to the evening... is how I would describe that) and going through it as completely as possible, even if it takes you a long time, or you don't do it all in one day or whatever. There are Messianic Haggadah's available -- we got one online a couple of years ago I recall.

Here are some online Haggadah's:

http://shema.com/haggadah.htm
http://godonthe.net/passover/
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/haggadah.html

Articles of interest:
http://www.baruchhashem.com/resources/twopassover.html
http://home.sprynet.com/~webartist/passover.html
http://www.messianichomeschool.net/Pesach.html
http://www.torahresource.com/Parashpdfs/Yeshua%20our%20Pesach%20TR.pdf

there are many, many more

 

[P_G]

Thank You Sis!

I was looking for a Messianic Haggadah for a while!

Many blessings on you!

PG

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Greetings in HaShem Yeshua,

In our congregation, the Passover is the time of remembering that special event that Christians would call communion. Yeshua mentions at the meal that the cup after the dinner was his blood of the new covenant. This is the cup of redemption. And bread that he broke was unleavened, stiped, pierced, broken and part of it wrapped in a white cloth to be hidden (buried) only to be discovered again at then end. Many many more things are represented and a tied to that particular meal with His disciples. When he says to remember Him whenever we eat this bread, he is speaking of the bread of affliction in the passover.

Yet each week as we gather for oneg, (the dinner after the Toah service) we will break bread (Leavened )and sometimes we will also have wine. But it is not communion, but a time to renew the covenant which he made, and the covenant that we have together as blievers, as bread and wine were key ingredients of any covenant making ceremony in the East. (A Covenental meal).

The weekly communion became a feature of the Christian faith much later. The Passover and the Sabbath we outlawed by the Roman authority and were replace by Sunday worship and the weekly communion. This took plae according to historians about 318 AD.

CIF

 

[ShirChadash]

Thank You Sis!

I was looking for a Messianic Haggadah for a while!

Many blessings on you!

PG

You're welcome!

 

[Henaynei]

The "love feast" and the "communion" or "L-rd's table" are not synonymous



"Communion/L-rd's Supper" was created from the Passover - and as obedience to Messiah's instructions to "as often as you do this, do it in remembrance of Me." The *this* that He & they were doing had to do with the third of four cups in the Passover Seder. This was not just a regular meal - but as was the tradition of the time it was a teaching Seder before the talmidim returned home for the Passover Seder the following night - in accordance with the scriptural command.



The church some 100 years later - in removing all Judaism from the community of believers - forbade keeping Passover on pain of death. What had been done then became two separate events - the often weekly Eucharist and Easter.



The "Love Feast" was a fellowship meal among believers and usually happened after the ending of the Sabbath - which by Jewish standards was the "the first day of the week" or Sunday. Please note - that the biblical day begins and ends at sundown - therefore sundown on the seventh day ended the Sabbath and started the "first day of the week." The love feast was not "communion" or "the L-rd's Supper."

 

[Multi-Elis]

In all the messianic synagogues I ever went to we had communion. In my old one it was once a month I think.

 

[Henaynei]

LOL - in all the Messianic synagogues (only about 6) I have attended only one had a monthly event similar to "Communion" - but then, that synagogue was still fairly tightly connected to the church.....

 

[Mevaser]

We have communion once a year, it is called Pesach / Passover.

We are not catholics, therefore we do not abide to their rulings (inventions).

Shalom

 

[Henaynei]

We have communion once a year, it is called Pesach / Passover.

We are not catholics, therefore we do not abide to their rulings (inventions).

Shalom

Hurrah!!!!!

 

[P_G]

Just some thoughts on this subject:

I surely agree that Y'shua broke the bread (matzoh) and
drank from the cup as part of the Pesach. But let us dwel on a
little deeper level than just even that as a ritual.

Y'shua says "Do this in memory of me"
Did he really mean to only draw to mind his great sacrifice once a year?
Once a month? Once a week? Even once a day? And this only durring a time
of ritual called communion or even Pesach?

NO

What were they doing? Eating and drinking, a common every day occurance even several times a day. It is necessary to eat and to drink in order to sustain life. Our Lord I beleive told us as we do even the most mundaine and necessary things to remember that we are bought with a price and a great one at that! Each meal, each sip of a drink we take to our lips should be a moment of rememberance of what it cost to cleanse us of our sins!

There were many teachings around this time of the last supper. Y'shua wanted us to be in communion with him but also with one another. Let us not forget that it was at this time he washed the disciples feet. We must be in loving communion with one another. Serving humbly and not desiring to be greater that the next but rather placing the needs and life of our brother or sister above our own.

Where do you stand? What is the sacrifice to you?


Blessings
Pastor George

 

[Henaynei]

Shalom,

Lest anyone think so, it is not the eating and drinkng that have the meaning - it is the Passover that has the meaning - it was a ratification of a covenant in Mitzryim and on the execution stake. Certainly we are to remember it every day - but saying we only remember it once a year because we only have the feast once a year is like saying we only remember the Exodus or the Shoah or the Atonement once a year because we only "celebrate" them once a year. Why do we feel the need to improve on G-d's calendar cycle??

All these things are remembered a minimum of twice a day IF one is praying the Siddur - a rich trove so often bypassed in favor of other structures.... Again rebuilding the wheel Go, dig deep!!

I know what Nehemiah said has great value - and the traditions of Judaism are set to remind us, even in the water closet (talk about mundane activities), to whom our life belongs....

 

[P_G]

Shalom,

Lest anyone think so, it is not the eating and drinkng that have the meaning - it is the Passover that has the meaning - it was a ratification of a covenant in Mitzryim and on the execution stake. Certainly we are to remember it every day - but saying we only remember it once a year because we only have the feast once a year is like saying we only remember the Exodus or the Shoah or the Atonement once a year because we only "celebrate" them once a year. Why do we feel the need to improve on G-d's calendar cycle??

We are in agreement we just said it different sis

The point really is that man has tried to make it something that it is not
nor was supposed to be.

PG

 

[flyfishing]

We have communion once a year, it is called Pesach / Passover.

We are not catholics, therefore we do not abide to their rulings (inventions).

Shalom

Shalom..

Christ did say as oft as you eaT and drink do it in remembrance of me. Do you not find the disciples example or the nt to have any meaning????

I understand your objection to what you percieve as catholic doctrine but if you are a scholar and study church history and see what the early disciples who btw where Jewish you see that it is amyth about the "constantine factor"..

Peace...

 

[Henaynei]

Shalom..

Christ did say as oft as you eaT and drink do it in remembrance of me. Do you not find the disciples example or the nt to have any meaning????

I understand your objection to what you percieve as catholic doctrine but if you are a scholar and study church history and see what the early disciples who btw where Jewish you see that it is amyth about the "constantine factor"..

Peace...

No, FF that is not what He said That IS what the gentile believing community has been taught He said.

The WHAT He was doing was, and still is a part of the Passover service (aka Pesakh Seder). I invite you to find one in your area this year at a Messianic Community and go - they are almost open to the public, expecially the church brothern, for a reasonable cost to cover the foods etc. You will find it a very interesting and informative experience.

Specifically, Yeshua took the third cup, the one after the meal - this cup has for millenia (before and since His sacrifice) been known as the "cup of redemption" - it was over THIS cup (not over just any drink or vessel) that He made the pronouncement. AND it was over the broken Matzah that comes RIGHT after that 3rd cup that He made the blessing and pronouncement.

It is NOT about any or every time your drink or eat - but about a specific scriptural event and G-d's specific instructions

I am posting from work and have not the time to edit - forgive me any sloppiness!!

The "eating and drinking" the disciples did "from house to house" was the "love feast" or "fellowship meal" - this is a wonderful thing to do and a great example of building and supporting community!! But it is not connected in any way to "do this as oft as you drink THIS cup."

 

[flyfishing]

No, FF that is not what He said That IS what the gentile believing community has been taught He said.

The WHAT He was doing was, and still is a part of the Passover service (aka Pesakh Seder). I invite you to find one in your area this year at a Messianic Community and go - they are almost open to the public, expecially the church brothern, for a reasonable cost to cover the foods etc. You will find it a very interesting and informative experience.

Specifically, Yeshua took the third cup, the one after the meal - this cup has for millenia (before and since His sacrifice) been known as the "cup of redemption" - it was over THIS cup (not over just any drink or vessel) that He made the pronouncement. AND it was over the broken Matzah that comes RIGHT after that 3rd cup that He made the blessing and pronouncement.

It is NOT about any or every time your drink or eat - but about a specific scriptural event and G-d's specific instructions

I am posting from work and have not the time to edit - forgive me any sloppiness!!

The "eating and drinking" the disciples did "from house to house" was the "love feast" or "fellowship meal" - this is a wonderful thing to do and a great example of building and supporting community!! But it is not connected in any way to "do this as oft as you drink THIS cup."

And i must disagree with you from the Word of GOD.. In 1 cor 11 paul reprimands the corinthians for the love feasts, and reminds them of the sacredness of the communion in the same chapter making distinction between the two..

thank you very much for the suggestion of attending a seder.. I have desired to for awhile so I may hopefully be shown Christ in a deeper light...

 

[Charlesinflorida]

No, FF that is not what He said That IS what the gentile believing community has been taught He said.

The WHAT He was doing was, and still is a part of the Passover service (aka Pesakh Seder). I invite you to find one in your area this year at a Messianic Community and go - they are almost open to the public, expecially the church brothern, for a reasonable cost to cover the foods etc. You will find it a very interesting and informative experience.

Specifically, Yeshua took the third cup, the one after the meal - this cup has for millenia (before and since His sacrifice) been known as the "cup of redemption" - it was over THIS cup (not over just any drink or vessel) that He made the pronouncement. AND it was over the broken Matzah that comes RIGHT after that 3rd cup that He made the blessing and pronouncement.

It is NOT about any or every time your drink or eat - but about a specific scriptural event and G-d's specific instructions

I am posting from work and have not the time to edit - forgive me any sloppiness!!

The "eating and drinking" the disciples did "from house to house" was the "love feast" or "fellowship meal" - this is a wonderful thing to do and a great example of building and supporting community!! But it is not connected in any way to "do this as oft as you drink THIS cup."

Just some thoughts if it's OK.

In the Luke account, Yeshua gives the barakha and passes a cup first as is traditionally done in the Seder. Then he gives the barakha for bread and breaks and passes it, and then after the supper another cup, this cup after he meal being the cup of redemption, and the one being connected as his blood. I bring this small variation up beause in this sequence of the Hagadah, which is the same today as it was then, (another blessed joy of being Messianic we do it the same way as the Lord and say the exact same words he spoke) this means that he was breaking the Matzah considered to be his body, and which half is hidden the middle Matzah of the three.

This is more for flyfishing as he is not yet familiar with all this yet as we are:


The Matza of course is unleavened, (free from sin) but in its preparation in order to make it pure from any natural occuing molds, it is mixed very quickly and cooked in a very hot oven, almost 800 deg.F. In order for the bread to cook this way, it is both striped and pierced, as was messiah before entering the oven of torment on the execution stake. In the seder there is Table Matzah which is used as the common bread for all the week of unleavened bread. But there is a special portion of Matzah that is the first to be used in the Seder, and this is where we are in the Luke passage. The matzah here is three pieces of Matzah which are in a special white linen cloth or bag. To the unsaved Jew these represent a sort of mysrery as they represent the priest, the levites, and the nation, but no one knows why only the middle one is broken. But in messianic Judaism we se something else. We can see, the father, son and Holy Spirit, all one God, all sinless all in one Bag. And it is the middle Matzah (the son Messiah Yeshua) that is pulled out and boken. The first half is divided and passed to all and used in the service the other half is wrapped up in a white cloth and hidden until after the end of the seder when it is searched for by the children, and the one who finds it, is rewarded or given a randsom to buy it back. The picture of course is Yeshua who is broken and wrapped in grave cloth and hidden in the tomb for three days and afterward the resurrection, and those who find him are rewarded with eternal life. By the way this last half that was hidden is called the Afikomen, and means "desert" something sweet, and it is held in the mouth when you eat it, until it becomes sweet in your mouth (the starch turning to sugar ) which is the sweetness of Messiah.

This midle Matzah is the one which Messiah Yeshua identiied as his own body, and that we should remember him every time we eat that middle matzah, because it is symbolic of him.


In I Cor 11 it seems that some abreviated form of a covenental meal is being practiced. We are not sure what all is involved but it certainly is not what Yeshua was speaking about when he said in the context of the Passover seder, This bread, this Matzah, the center one, is my body broken for you.

We don't know a lot about what the Corinthians were doing or how they were practicing this. Paul seems to allow the development of this mitvah, but we should keep in mind that these Corrinthians had a lot of weird stuff going on and Paul has written them three time in order to restore order and to try and bring them back to right behavior. This does not seem to me to be the best choice of churches in he NT to model ourselves after. We must look at what they were doing wrong and avoid the same mistakes.

Having said that I repeat, that Paul seems to be accepting of this Lords Table or Communion if this was. Yet there was inherent danger in it as we see. We can not be totally sure it was a daily or weekly event, this communion. We don't know its origins either as it is not what the Lord was speaking of, beause this would be completely out of the context and setting in which the instruction from the Lord were given. If a person is standing in a river and says "drink only this water" we can assume he means the water that he is standing in. Yeshua was standing in the seder of Passover officiating it, and blessing, beaking and passing the center Matzah of the three in one, which depicts Messiah and saying THIS PIECE, is my body broken for you, and the cup after the meal, THIS CUP is my blood, (the cup of redemption) which is poured out for you.

My conclusion: What the church does in Communion is not what the Lord designated or intended. But I do not have trouble with believers developing their own practice and observing it so long as it is not a violation of Torah or based in some Pagan ritual as so many christian rituals are. And Communion does not seem to be such with one exception, and that is the XXXXX church's trans-substantiation, whereby the priest says Magical words (AbraCaabara) and the bread and wine turn into the actual blood and body tissues of Jesus. This makes the act of comunion 1. occult 2. canabalistic.3 sets the priest in the realm of power over the people.

CIF

 

[flyfishing]

Charles thank you for an understanding of your customs.. But as i see pauls qoute a direct quote of christ i believe it seperates the communion from the love feasts..

he does say as oft as you eat do in remembrance of CHRIST, I struggle with how often it should be done.. if the church was at the spiritual plane of the nt church i would say weekly perhaps more often.. I know i am blessed to participate in the table of the LORD but each time i do it i am very cautious..

I dont believe in the trans substantiation theory either but know that it is a blessed event..



A practical question: Have you witnessed a "gentile" communion service??
Thanks again for sharing the custom of seder. To honor that in a "gentile setting" would it be like having three pieces of unleavened bread on a plate and taking the middle one and breaking it??

Also do you have any insight into what piece judas was given as he betrayed CHRIST??? Thanks..

 

[Henaynei]

A practical question: Have you witnessed a "gentile" communion service??
Thanks again for sharing the custom of seder. To honor that in a "gentile setting" would it be like having three pieces of unleavened bread on a plate and taking the middle one and breaking it??

Also do you have any insight into what piece judas was given as he betrayed CHRIST??? Thanks..

Shalom,

In my post I [tried to] clearly stated that the love feast and the "L-rd's Supper" are seperate. The love/fellowship feast happened rather frequently. I still believe that the *this* of the command "do THIS" was the Passover service.

I, and most MJs have come from a church culture and as such are very well aquainted with "Communion" or "Euchrist." Personally, I came from both a High Church Episcopalian and from an evangelical charismatic background. I've "seen it all" - from Mass to even where a charismatic church decided to use leavened bread for their "Communion" because Messiah was "raised" from the dead

Re: Judas' "price" - scripture says it was "30 pieces of silver" - since it was paid by some priests I would venture that it was the Temple sheckel.

 

[flyfishing]

No i meant when jesus dipped the sop and gave it to JESUS..

Sorry i did not see the distinction..

Are most messianics true jews or gentiles converted??