Messianics and communion

[flyfishing]

The biblical principle is " In the face of two or three witnesses a thing will be established". We have shown you three different ways of coming to the same date directly from what is given in the scriptures. There is more than enough evidence here to establish a date that any court would be willing to issue a new birth certificate or Yeshua.

I believe the problem here is that when a person becomes part of a system, particularly a long standing system with firm traditions, and adhearance to these become part of what you must believe in order to protect you eternal life, then even the hardest facts will fail to displace the traditions. There is an unmentioned process where what you believe and profess in religion become a part of your salvation. If you doubt the tradition you endanger your secure salvation.

People who are christians call me a legalist, and say that I have lost my salvation because I try to live my life according to Gods instructions, all the while they themselves adhear fervently to church traditions that are sometimes in direct violation of the commandments Yeshua told us to keep and to teach others.

CIF

Charles got a chuckle..Trying to picture you taking this to a court of law...

 

[flyfishing]

First: with what Henaynei has already said above concider this also:

Yeshua fulilled the passover exactly on the date of the prophetic feast, at the exact same hour that the lamb in th temple was slaughtered.

He arose in exact fulfillment of the feast of first fruits, being the first fruits of all who will be resurrected through Faith in him.

He sent the spirit to us to establish and fulfill the Renewed covenant on the exact day that the First covenant was given to Moshe, Pentecost, Shavuot.

Everything in His life was appointed prophetically by God. His birth also was appointed for the first day of Sukkot, Tishri 15, and his becoming a son of the covenant through circumcision on the final and 8th day of the feast.

Nothing is left to chance with God. How do you think the wise men from the east knew when and where to look or Messiah? They understood the scriptures. The Maggi were part of the Jews who stayed behind in babylon Maggi = Rabbi.

Even his death was foretold in detail. From the cross Yeshua calls to them standing around "My God My God, why have you forsaken me". Did God foresake him really? No. The writings of the scriptures in Hebrew are known by their opening line. For example Bershit, (Genesis) mean in the beginning.
What Yeshua called out was Psalm 22, which is a vivid depiction of the Messiahs death by crucifixion. He was saying to the people, "Look I am fulfilling the prophecy before your eyes. I am the Messiah, Have faith in me."The Jews standing there knew exactly what he meant. They knew the word. But it goes right over the heads of the church.

Flyfishing, Tishri 15 is the prophetic day set aside for the birth of Messiah. If he was not born on that day, then he was not the Messiah. Because Messiah fulfills all the prophecies concerning him.

In answer to your question about which feast days are fulfilled, really all seven of them. Trumpets you can see fulfilled by the angelic chorus proclaiming the arrival of Messiah at his birth, and Atonement was fulfilled when he entered the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Tabernacle to apply his blood upon the mercy seat. He is now our high priest as well as our King.

Its all there in the Tanahk

CIF

pERHAPS YOU HAVE CONVINCED ME FRIEND.. I dont think it is legalistic to have an honor for GODS name btw. Just when you teach me that i should follow the jewish plan as i am a gentile until YESHUA shows me otherwise..
shalom..

 

[Charlesinflorida]

pERHAPS YOU HAVE CONVINCED ME FRIEND.. I dont think it is legalistic to have an honor for GODS name btw. Just when you teach me that i should follow the jewish plan as i am a gentile until YESHUA shows me otherwise..
shalom..

Num 15: [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.

Matt 5: [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Flyfishing,
If you do a close examination of the sriptures like the middle chapters of Hebrews where people think that it says that the old covenant is obsolete and passed away you will find that the verb is future tense, "is about to pass away" and the subject is not the law or the old covenant in total, but it speaks of the priesthood and the sacrificial system that looked forward to Messiah. These became obsolete for now there is a better sacrifice and a higher prieshood through Yeshua. In the future, during the Millennial Kingdom, these temple offerings will again be instituted but rather than looking forward to Messiah Yeshua, they will look back to the things He did. It is only the priesthood and the sacrifices of the old covenant that are suspended. The Law, or instruction, for social justice, for holiness defining what is clean and what is not clean, hygene, marrital rulings, all this moral law is eternal. We are to do it now. We are to keep the feasts as Paul himself says Keep the feast (of Passover which was coming up then) and all the others but do so descerning the Lord Yeshua in them. Not the sacrifices contained in them but the fellowship on the Lords prescribed days. Moreover it will be the law (Torah) that will go orth from Jerusalem to all the nations during the Millennial Kingdom.

Again there is the same situation that the church has been taught incorrectly that the law is passed away, and now that incorrect assumption has become a tradition that will not yield in the face of truth. The church teaches that if you keep the law, then you forfeit your salvation through grace. This is a lie. What Paul says is that if you try to earn your own salvation through keeping the law, then you have given up your grace and are obligated to keep all the law. Paul also says that to keep the law with the clear understanding that Gods grace is our salvation and that our keeping the law is the outward growth of our faith is what we ARE TO DO.. He says "do we make void the law through our faith? God forbid! By our faith we establish the law." RO 3:31

The church has taken Pauls words in exactly the way that he so adamently warned the churches not to fall into. They have gone the way he feared so much and have twisted his very words to do so. How sad Paul would feel to know this.

CIF

 

[flyfishing]

Yes charles i was aware of Daniels prophesy regarding millenial sacrifices..

I have concerns though.. the people that fall away in the millenial kingdom are those jews??

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Yes charles i was aware of Daniels prophesy regarding millenial sacrifices..

I have concerns though.. the people that fall away in the millenial kingdom are those jews??

All the nations will have hose within them that will fall away as before. It is hard to imagine how when living under the rule of Messiah. But in a place where time passes with not sickness, wa, hunger, and we become more and more distanced from the way things were without Messiah as king, people will begin to feel oppressed and want to rule themselves, just as the rebellion of the angels.

I hope you are not one of those who believe that only the Jews will live in the millenial Kingdom, because everyone else will be either raptured of killed in the tribulation. The scriptures make it really clear that there will be surivors of the tribulation from all nations and that these will live under the kingship of messiah. It says that He shall rule over them with a rod of iron. And that they all will be required to come to the feast of tabernacles (not all the people but their representatives) or their country will not have rain. It is these flesh and blood people who survive the Tribulation who will repopulate the earth. Some of them will indeed be Jews who did not accept Yeshua until the end, after the resurrection and rapture. But we see Gog and Magog (gentiles) are also present in that final rebellion at the end of the 1000 years.

CIF

Also you did not comment on the verses above where Yeshua commands us to be obedient to the law and to teach others to do the same.

 

[flyfishing]

Oh charles! Sorry! Working on the sermon. So only will respond to what i feel led to. I do believe in a holy life and that without it no man sahll see the LORD JEHOVAH.. What that consists of though i am sure we would debate needlessly..

My theory on end times?? I see a new heavens and earth, a millenial kingdom pretty much as you described. Wherever i am,which i do not see a clear indication of in scripture i will observe HIs ways.

A question for you though, do you believe in the rapture?? As re thessalonians 4:16-17?? And since the nt beliver has been changed from mortality to immortality will they fall?? Me thinks not..

Also romans 11 all is rael shall be saved?? Is this saying the whole nation will accept YESHUA??? And then their children fall away..

BTW I am praying i am in the throne room always!!! No toher place to be!! Well ok a close second is winning souls..

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Oh charles! Sorry! Working on the sermon. So only will respond to what i feel led to. I do believe in a holy life and that without it no man sahll see the LORD JEHOVAH.. What that consists of though i am sure we would debate needlessly..

My theory on end times?? I see a new heavens and earth, a millenial kingdom pretty much as you described. Wherever i am,which i do not see a clear indication of in scripture i will observe HIs ways.

A question for you though, do you believe in the rapture?? As re thessalonians 4:16-17?? And since the nt beliver has been changed from mortality to immortality will they fall?? Me thinks not..

Also romans 11 all is rael shall be saved?? Is this saying the whole nation will accept YESHUA??? And then their children fall away..

BTW I am praying i am in the throne room always!!! No toher place to be!! Well ok a close second is winning souls..

The Rapture? I was thinking that you and I had discussed this once before but maybe I am wrong.

Scripture is quite clear that there will indeed be a rapture, as in Thes and Icor 15, whereby the living righteous will be changed from Mortal to immortal. So no, these will not fall away. The scripture is also quite clear that this change of the living will take place in conjunction with the resurrection of the righteous dead. And that both of these will take place at the second coming of the Lord in Glory to gather his people from the four corners of the heavens and to bring judgment upon the wicked of the earth. The righteous are moved from the earth to a place in the gallery of heaven (into thy chambers) at the end of the Tribulation at about 1263 1/2 days from the abomination. What follows the removal of the righteous is the additional 30 days called "the wrath of God" where the beast empire is destroyed, and the armies of the earth destroyed at Armageddon.

After that another period of time 45 days where the surviving nations are judged. This is reflected in detail in the Matt 27 judging of the sheep and the Goats. People will actually be judged according to how they treated "the least of these my brothers" which is the believers. How were they treated during the tribulation, were they sheltered, fed, given medical attention ect? much as the dutch and others hid away the Jews in World War two from the Natzi's. Based on this, they are told whether they can enter "the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundations of the earth."
It is often missed by the church that Gods plan was to save all of mankind and that the kingdom of Messiah was the plan from the beginning, for all the earth. And even those nations who were against the Lord in the tribulation but who survive will find his mercy and be allowed to enter, based only on how they treat us, his brothers.


Will all Israel be saved? I think Paul is speaking in a positive tone with great optomism. It is his hope that all of Israel will be saved. He does not say, I have it from the Lord Himself that all of Israel will be saved. Not every individual person will be saved for there are good and bad in all peoples. But Israel the nation, as an entity will indeed be saved. The entire world will go through the tribulation (the great tribulation) but only the unsaved will be here during his wrath and armageddon. The purpose of the tribulation is to awaken the people of the earth to their need to repent and accept Gods salvation. More people will be saved during the Tribulation than any other period of time in history.

It is mistaken by many that the 144000 Jews in Rev 12, 14 are going to evangelize the world. This is only a "Linseyism". The purpose of these 144,000 are to witness, to be first hand witnesses to the victory of the Lord. They shall testify about the events for generations to come. They are like the 300 that were chosen to be there as witnesses to the battle with Gideon. They only need to watch. The other task they have is that they minister to the lamb, Yeshua. He is not alone in this battle. He stands on the Mt. of Olives and the 144000 stand with him. These sing his paises, and record history in the making.

CIF

 

[flyfishing]

Charles i agree with most of what you posted. I believe i am a 1thess 4;16-17 saint which i believe occurs at the beginning of the greta trib. Daniels days start at the beginning yes?? I could go with a mid trib rapture that the believer does not see the wrath of GOD..

I found your interpertation of the 144,000 interesting. How can GODS SERVANTS not witness/evangelize?? Also I find it hard to believe that YESHUA needs warriors.. One blast and he could wipe out the entire world.. i will restudy though.. Thanks for sharing and no i dont think you shared your beliefs prior. is your belief consistent with mainstream messianic thought??? And do you feel you will be raptured? How do you see yourself in the prophetic picture??? Are you someone GOD is raising up as a 144,000??

Thanks again..

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles i agree with most of what you posted. I believe i am a 1thess 4;16-17 saint which i believe occurs at the beginning of the greta trib. Daniels days start at the beginning yes?? I could go with a mid trib rapture that the believer does not see the wrath of GOD..

I found your interpertation of the 144,000 interesting. How can GODS SERVANTS not witness/evangelize?? Also I find it hard to believe that YESHUA needs warriors.. One blast and he could wipe out the entire world.. i will restudy though.. Thanks for sharing and no i dont think you shared your beliefs prior. is your belief consistent with mainstream messianic thought??? And do you feel you will be raptured? How do you see yourself in the prophetic picture??? Are you someone GOD is raising up as a 144,000??

Thanks again..

First off, no I am not one of the 144000. Although it would be an honor. That honor is reserved for someone else. I see my role as being here to testify, to witness to the unsaved, to lead to messiah and to bind up and encourage, teach those who will be here during the great tribulation. (should I live this long that is).

Daniels prophecy does not state the tribulation to be 7 years long. It is the covenant that is 7 years long and that is not synonomous with the tribulation. The tribulation or the great tribulation (there is no difference ) is 1290 days long (Dan 12) and follows a time known as "The beginning of sorrows. (Yeshua matt 24).

There is another way of viewing Daniels prophecy. He lays out 70 weeks. There are two signs that must take place before the final return of Messiah and the resurrection. Those two signs are an end to the daily sacrifice, and the appearance of the abomination who comes sweeping though. Well Yeshua put an end to the daily oblations (or the need for them) at the end of his 3 1/2 year ministry. The appearance of the Abomiation will mark the beginning of the great tribulation. The thing is, Daniel did not know and was not told, that there would be 2000 years between the first and the sceond sign.

So from our perspective the first half of the last week is already history and we wait for the beginning of the last half, a period of 1290 days. When this pophetic clock starts again we can count 1263 1/2 days to our resurrection/rapture. Refelation follows this last 3 1/2 year period a time, times and a half time.

Yes I do believe my thought is very consistent with Jewish thought. Althouh there are always differences. Most see to be along the lines of a Post trib, just before the wrath of God, sort of rapture/resurection.

Again this is not mid trib. Your idea of mid trib comes from the popular idea that Daniels 70th week is a 7 year trib that is divided into 3.5 year tribulation and 3.5 year great tribulation. There is no real scriptural support for this. In fact it is stated exactly as I have shown you above.Only the tribulation or great tribulation and it is 1290 days long from the abomination to the consumation of the age.

AS for the 144000, how can they not evangelize? They will after the judgmemnt, during the Millenial kingdom, but not during the trib. They are given their immortal bodies at the same time all the believers are given immortality, at the second coming. They will remain in the company of the Lord, they go wherever the lamb goes. The day of evangelizing during the tribulation will already be finished. It is time for the wrath of God. You see it is my onviction that the way tey are "sealed" and made immortal is the rapture/resurection. It takes plae when the two witnesses are raised up, 1263 1/2 days after the abomination. Most likely on the feast of trumpets, and then 10 days of terrible whoes and then Yom Kipur, sins ae judged at armageddon.

CIF

 

[flyfishing]

Charles i see a difference in what you and i believe. I see through rev4-on very much GOds wrath.. But for all that they do not repent.. i do not see any mention of the church after the philadelphia church. That is one of many reasons i see the church and all believrs not of the 144,000 not going through the tribulation.

I agree about daniels seperation of weeks..

Good discussion got to go..

 

[Henaynei]

Are you someone GOD is raising up as a 144,000??

To be one of the 144,000 you must be a believing, Messiah serving, Jewish male virgin - some say that will be as great a miracle as the parting of the Reed sea

OTOH - G-d has *always* preserved for Himself a remnant

 

[flyfishing]

To be one of the 144,000 you must be a believing, Messiah serving, Jewish male virgin - some say that will be as great a miracle as the parting of the Reed sea

OTOH - G-d has *always* preserved for Himself a remnant

yes GLORY!!! Charles you aint a virgin?? LOL

 

[Charlesinflorida]

yes GLORY!!! Charles you aint a virgin?? LOL

I was once. And I should be again soon if the present trend continues.

CIF

 

[flyfishing]

I was once. And I should be again soon if the present trend continues.

CIF

Do you feel as a new creation that Christ restores virginity?? Off topic i know.. Curious..

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Do you feel as a new creation that Christ restores virginity?? Off topic i know.. Curious..

If you mean in the regeneration, that is after the resurrection and rapture, scripture sort of suggests that the differences of sex may not be there. It says in the resurection there is neither marriage or giving in marriage for you shall be as the angels in heaven. All Angles seem to be either men, or are androgenous. No Mrs. Angels to be found. (But Gen 6 indicates they are male and functional) So it would appear that the glorified body though flesh in a sense, and able to eat, Like the risen Lord, yet is able to appear in a locked room, that is not restricted by the physical elements, and possiby is not sexually distinct.

CIF

 

[Henaynei]

/me believes that the post resurrection state is a restoration to the pre-Eve state of man.... ask me if you dare or have some REAL fun and try to guess!!

 

[ShirChadash]

Zem continues to watch the thread with interest...

 

[Henaynei]

Zem continues to watch the thread with interest...

Ah, nary a daring fun seeker in sight!!!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Ah, nary a daring fun seeker in sight!!!

Oops just lost everything I had entered.

Before Eve (Havah) I believe Adam had his glorified body the same as we will have in the resurrection. After sin entered they knew they were naked, and this means they were exposed to he heart. But God "made them skins" to cover them. Some think this simply means God killed a couple lions and made them some cave man suits. It reads a bit differently in the Hebrew. I think it means that he gave them human flesh bodies (skins) with all its limitations and the ability to bear children ect. It was after this they are commanded to multiply. And part of the curse is the pain of childbirth. The human body is our Earth suit.

The story of Adam and Eve is not unique or exclusive to the Hebrews. Other ancient people share this story in some form. Some with more detail and makes for a very interesting read. Here is a clip from part of the story found in an Egyptian text. Notice the change, they no longer have the same view of thier inviroment. Outside the Garden is much different. It is not fed from Gods glorious presence, but requires a flesh body:

Adam and Eve wept for having come out of the garden, their first abode. And indeed when Adam looked at his flesh, that was altered, he wept bitterly, he and Eve, over what they had done. And they walked and went gently down into the cave of treasures. And as they came to it Adam wept over himself and said to Eve, " Look at this cave that is to be our prison in this world, and a place of punishment! " What is it compared to the garden? What is it's narrowness compared to the space of the other?" " What is this rock, by the side of those groves? What is the gloom of this cavern, compared to the light of the garden? What is this overhanging ledge of rock to shelter us compared with the mercy of the Lord that overshadowed us? What is the soil of this cave compared with the garden land? This earth strewed with stones; and that, planted with delicious fruit trees?"

And Adam said to Eve," Look at thine eyes and mine, which afore beheld angels in Heaven, praising; and they too, without ceasing. But now we do not see as we did: our eyes have become of flesh; they cannot see in like manner as they saw before." Adam said again to Eve, "What is our body today compared to what it was in the former days, when we dwelt in the garden?...

[Adam and Eve Came and entered the cave.] But when in it Adam could not see Eve ; he only heard the noises she made. Neither could she see Adam, but heard the noises he made. Then Adam wept in deep affliction, and smote his breast; and arose and said to Eve," Where art thou?" And she said unto him, "Lo, I am standing in the darkness." He then said to her," Remember the bright nature in which we lived, while we abode in the garden! Oh Eve! Remember the glory that rested on us in the garden. O Eve !. Remember the trees that overshadowed us in the garden while we moved among them. O Eve! Remember that while we were in the garden that we knew neither night nor day. Think of the tree of life, from below which flowed the water, and that shed lustre over us!


Henaynei, AM I close?

CIF

 

[Henaynei]

Oops just lost everything I had entered.

Hmmmmm... Surely YOU'VE heard????? "Jesus SAVES!!!" [decided not to resist!!! ]

Before Eve (Havah) I believe Adam had his glorified body the same as we will have in the resurrection. After sin entered they knew they were naked, and this means they were exposed to the heart.

Boy oh boy - you covered, what about 3 chapters in 2 sentences?? LOL

And in here some where is what I am speaking of...... Sit back this may take a while and a bit of thinking.......


In the beginning...... ok, not *quite that far back* - fast forward 5 days.... LOL

G-d created a "Man." While all other creatures were created as male and female, Man was not. He alone was created in the "image" of G-d.



Now there have been many worthy drashim on what "in His image" means and almost every system of thought on that topic has at least some value, some a great deal more than others. But they all leave out a very important - IMHO - factor.



G-d is neither male nor female - when He created Man, he was neither male nor female, he was like G-d. Now, as finite creatures and as we have, until very recently, always had only 2, but always 2, sexes, we find it impossible, especially in English, to speak of living creatures, other than plants, without assigning them a sexual designation. Thus we assign to Man the designation "he" as, once Chava was removed from Adam, from that point there WAS a differentiation. That said......



Adam was originally neither male nor female - he was complete and whole, just as G-d is complete and whole. But, just as G-d desired companionship, so did Man. As Man named the creatures and saw that each had a partner he began to feel alone - "and G-d said it is not good for Man to be alone..." G-d understood this aloneness.



So, could G-d have just grabbed another lump of clay and fashioned a companion?? Surely! Did He?? No!



G-d caused this complete and whole creation, Man, to fall asleep, and G-d chose those parts that He fashioned into Wo-man. In the scriptures the terms used for rib and side can also mean "round and soft."



I believe G-d separated certain physical, spiritual, emotional, even intellectual characteristics from Man and fashioned them into Wo-Man (which means "from Man"). Man and Wo-men are different - and the differences can well be described in the woman as "roundness and softness," - in general. Men, both in physic and in thinking processes are more "angular and hard." Together they create a balanced whole. THIS is why homosexual "marriage" and "parenting" is an abomination... but that is not this thread.....sorry...



So, we look at women and men - and what do we see?? We have homilies that state "opposites attract," and "compliment each other," and "balance me" and many more, that describe the relationship between a man and a woman.



G-d has adjusted His interaction and communication with us taking all this in to account. All throughout scripture G-d uses allusions to either male traits or female (again, "from" male) traits to draw pictograms for us to help us understand Him.



And the most used homily of all: "and the two shall become one flesh." Thus, marriage, selected and executed in G-d's way, reunites that which He separated in Adams' sleep. THIS is G-d's plan for marriage.



From this comes the Jewish concept of "b'shert" - the chosen one. It is believed that for every man G-d creates, He also creates the woman to complete and re-create Man.



I believe that it is this completed Man - the uniting of the two separated parts - that we will be in the Olam HaBa. Again, one complete and whole being before the Throne of HaShem. That is why "there is neither marrying nor giving in marriage."

Shalom.....

Henaynei, AM I close?

CIF

We were not on the same page, but you certainly had a lot to bring to the table!!! Todah CIF...... you alone chose to dive in!! SPLASH!!!