Messianic Judaism?

talmidim said:

You are wrong Contra, so lets get a few things straight. If I say that there are some people in my city that are murderers, robbers and thieves but do not name them, that is not l'ashon hara, even if other people know who they are. If I say, "You know who they are", it is still not l'ashon hara.

Even if I do call someone out by name, it is still not l'ashon hara if it is done in order to correct an unjust or negative situation, like to make someone accountable for an injustice or a crime. But you already know that, so I am forced to question your motives for accusing me of l'ashon hara.

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Sorry, don't agree. You're hiding behind your spin on a halacha I don't think you alone are qualified to define. No matter which way you spin this, you are far from cordial.

If you however, addressing me by name, accuse me of negative characteristics or behaviors; if you question my emotional state or my ability to deliver information accurately with no other purpose than to paint me in a negative light, that is l'ashon hara and a direct violation of this forums SOP.

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Pot, meet kettle.

You seem to think that this forum is representative of Messianic Judaism and that Messianic Judaism is a chaotic and all-inclusive 'movement', essentially no different that Christianity in form or doctrine. Well the overwhelming majority of the followers of Messianic Judaism that voted in this forum say otherwise. We have a new SOP emphasizing Torah observance that has moved us away from what you teach.

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I have no idea what you are saying and how it relates to anything I believe about things around here.

UNFORTUNATELY, some here don't seem to publically recognize the difference between Torah observance and standard Christian practices. It's not like you don't know the difference. I'm pretty sure everyone here know the difference. I just don't understand why some people get to flaunt the rules with no accountability. It's sickening.

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I have no idea why you are losing your temper over this.

We have members that claim to be Torah observant, but the extent of their observance is limited to partial observance of the Ten Commandments.

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Hardly your business to judge them, I would say.

They will tell you as much. They will teach this hypocrisy to seekers that come here because they see the sign that says Messianic Judaism on the outside. But they get inside and quickly find that Torah observant Messianic Judaism can be nothing more than Christianity in a Tallit - or even without the Tallit, as long as the teacher and student use the magical phrases, 'I am at a different place on the path' and 'Torah observance means different things to different people'. What unmitigated hypocritical manure! Somewhere on the path should not include nowhere NEAR the path. Where is any attempt at accountability?

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As above. It is not your place to judge them.

You say, "Primitive Messianic Judaism most likely developed into Christianity." I agree, but in the sense that foods 'developed' into genetically modified foods.

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I think that analogy is flawed....but I honestly don't think you care about that anyway.

Messianic Judaism developed into Christianity by force of arms.

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I don't think you could substantiate that.

The ancient Romans were pretty good record keepers. They taxed Torah observance. Then the made laws against it. You don't enact drug laws unless significant numbers of people are taking drugs. And you don't enact laws against Torah observance unless significant numbers of people are observing Torah. Duh!

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OK then....but why lose your temper?

So how is it that you, with your icon, gets to teach anyone in this forum what Messianic Judaism means? Oh! That's right! Because you can! Besides, if you get called down, all you have to do is agree with the 'Messianics' that claim it's just Christianity anyway. You know who I mean. The ones that teach that keeping the Ten Commandments is Torah observance, even if your Sabbath is on Sunday. How is this not a lie?

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Look, Tal..in all seriousness....why don't you take this problem up with the Messianic groups that are not as radical as you and sort them out. You are just really failing to make a point here. I really don't think you are saying anything that is prompting any kind of reaction out of me. I just don't care about your judgments on the rest of MJism.

You think I should calm down.

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I'm not alone on this, either.

Well of course you do. What a perfect position for you to take. You get to help destroy something that you don't agree with and means absolutely nothing to you. I, on the other hand, get to do what? Sit back and shut up?

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You seem awfully frightened of my supposed abilities to "destroy something" I don't agree with. What makes you think so highly of me? My Zionist black arts or something?

Of course you want me to calm down. You are a Hebrew Christian with strong leanings toward Eastern Orthodoxy where Torah observance is not only not required, it's considered heresy.

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You really have no clue about this. I've mentioned EO'y probably once in four years here, and I made a heavily qualified statement about it. And you are running with it. We have a word for that.....

They say that Satan know more about scripture than any man. Messianic Judaism, being all-inclusive, chaotic, confused and all; perhaps we should invite him, right? After all, he's the king of chaos and the author of confusion. Seems like a good fit, right? And since he is also on a different point in his path too, he can claim a Torah observant Messianic Judaism icon too! Wouldn't that be just swell?

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Temper, temper!

Contra, this is not 'just the internet' to me. Nor is it a joke. What you meant to say was that this Messianic Judaism forum is just the internet TO YOU. That this is nothing serious TO YOU. But we know that isn't true either. You and your allies say one thing, but your actions say another. You all teach the same thing. Everything is OK. Messianic Judaism is no different than Christianity. It seems you have an agenda. I wonder what that could be?

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Dude, you're losing it!! LOL. Settle down. This is the most hilarious interpetation of my words yet.

You may ask, 'How do you know what being Torah observant is? ' Well I know the difference between Torah observance in Messianic Judaism and the views of mainstream Christianity toward 'the Law'. So do you. So does everyone else. What I am witnessing in this forum is not very encouraging - or very honest.

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Let's get THIS right- you and I do NOT agree on what Torah observance really is. You might think you are Mr. Observant, but let me tell you that I think most of what I have seen preached here is the Diet Coke version of observance. Torah Lite.

Understand this: you are not the guy handing out the instructions on what being observant is, nor are you in any position to judge others on their path.

Someone called my words a hate filled rant. They are right.

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We all know that.

Shame on you. Shame on you because you know better and support the farce anyway. Shame on everyone that contends that the observations of mainstream Christianity and that of Torah observant Messianic Judaism are the same. Shame on everyone that claims that the observation of the Ten Commandments is the same as Torah observance of a Messianic.

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Wow...talk about a tantrum based on a mistaken impression.

The Christian and Messianic Torah observance is not just being at different places on the path. For one it is an end in itself. For the other it is only the beginning. Shame on every member that does not know that or espouse that. Shame on every moderator that does not enforce that. Shame on everyone that know the difference and does not speak up when we see members claiming one thing in regard to Torah observance and teaching or doing another.

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Now that you have heaped shame on pretty much the whole forum, and broken a pile of forum and sub-forum rules in the process, and managed to apparently please both of the ones in the cheer squad who pushed you into this...and the Jews on this forum look at you in total dismay and complete disbelief...how do you feel?

Funny how people can rave and brag about their Torah observance and utterly miss the whole point at the same time.

Please calm down. Re-think your understanding of others here.

ContraMundum said:

Now that you have heaped shame on pretty much the whole forum, and broken a pile of forum and sub-forum rules in the process, and managed to apparently please both of the ones in the cheer squad who pushed you into this...and the Jews on this forum look at you in total dismay and complete disbelief...how do you feel?

Funny how people can rave and brag about their Torah observance and utterly miss the whole point at the same time.

Please calm down. Re-think your understanding of others here.

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There was no push from me, but yeah I agree it needed to be said. Until there is clearer lines drawn, the definitions determined, the allegiances made, the certain sounds each group is making will continue to be a lot of just noise to the rest of the world much like a orchestra warming up before the grand conductor takes the stage..

EasyG,

Thanks for pointing out that the house rules don't allow for the judging of other's level of observance. It had to be said. We are all different. Some keep the Feast etc very faithfully, others go further, others cut and paste as they grow and move along. The fact that someone could rage about it being a problem shows a lack of respect for those who are doing their best on the path to seek out living a life pleasing to God.

As usual, you have shown great patience and attention to detail and reminded us all about what is really important.

visionary said:

There was no push from me, but yeah I agree it needed to be said. Until there is clearer lines drawn, the definitions determined, the allegiances made, the certain sounds each group is making will continue to be a lot of just noise to the rest of the world much like a orchestra warming up before the grand conductor takes the stage..

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Actually, I think the lines are very clear and work just fine. Just some people cannot compromise and live with the opinions of others in a charitable way. I really think that an internet forum is not for them.

We all say things that challenge others and that's ok. We feel insulted sometimes, and that's ok too. But to push to legislate for a monolithic set of accepted opinions based on one's own is to elevate one's own opinion far too highly. This is why CF and this particular sub-forum has permeable boundaries. Otherwise we would end up with forums of one or two people at best- who just pat each other on the back and agree as they pass cigars to each other and affirm their own supremacy. How dull. And spiritually dead.

ContraMundum said:

EasyG,

Thanks for pointing out that the house rules don't allow for the judging of other's level of observance. It had to be said. We are all different. Some keep the Feast etc very faithfully, others go further, others cut and paste as they grow and move along. The fact that someone could rage about it being a problem shows a lack of respect for those who are doing their best on the path to seek out living a life pleasing to God.

As usual, you have shown great patience and attention to detail and reminded us all about what is really important.

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Agreed

Easy G (G²);62084897 said:

But you claim to be Messianic and refuse to honor anything in CHrisitanity, you simply don't honor the SoP - and thus, you don't belong on it as CF feels. End of Story.

The name of the HOST site we're at - Christian Forums - is a bit of a no brainer as to what is meant to be promoted - and it's intellectually dishonest for anyone to complain in the name of "We don't feel JUDAISM AS WE SEE IT IS PROMOTED!!!" when they fail to be honorable toward what CF noted on its own interpretation.

It is disingenious for anyone to read the SoP or CF and attempt to either slide things that are basically rants against Christianity - or complain on not feeling supported by CF when they already made plain they couldn't care less about it. It has been made plain multiple times here (as well as on other forums ) directly - and that's something that cannot be avoided.

You don't go into someone's house, start to raid their fridge for food/make a bed or build a chicken coup (against the neighborhood community rules) - and then bring others in proclaiming "You need to accomodate us in what we think - as this is how we feel you should be living life!!" . It'd be even more problematic if there were attempts at gathering a committee with like minded people wanting to use your home for their own purposes - and trying to talk on how the neighborhood should support their "just cause" - even though they may have no issue calling home/telling friends and associates how they hate the neighborhood and think the owners/founders of it are foolish.

That'd be rude....and to add to the issue, it would give the impression that others claiming concern with "healthy living" are basically using your home as a parasite - using your resources/manpower for their own benefit. It doesn't work like that in the real world - and neither does it work like that here.

CF has made very plain that all faith groups - be it the Baptist or the Reformed or the Charismatic and the Messianic Jewish - are to be in direct agreement with the SITE Wide rules as it concerns CHristianity. This has been said both explictly and implictly - and no one who is intellectually honest on the matter will say otherwise. If the Site Wide rules cannot be honored and such intentions of not doing so have been stated as such, there's no way to hide that.

This is not a forum meant to denounce Christianity - in the name of Messianic Judaism. This is not a forum meant to denouce Chrisitans or the Church - in the name of Messianic Judaism. This is not a Forum meant to claim Jewish Observant believers of Torah who are Christians are not "Torah Observant" - in the name of Messianic Judaism. It is a forum consistent with what other Messianic Jews have long noted when it comes to advocating the goal of promoting Christianity and seeing Messianic Judaism as promoted to that.

So long as people believe a lie that the forum was meant to be SEPERATE from Christianity, there will always be attempts to hijack it for their own purposes - and then cry "FOUL!!!!" when it is not honored or seen as honorable. If people do not like Christians or the Church, there's nothing saying that they cannot feel that way. The option is simply for them to leave and go elsewhere in places they have freedom to express such - btu CF has never given any permission for that to occur here.

Basically, if you're a Christian (be it Jewish or Gentile), CF was meant to support you. But it's ludicrious to expect CF to be supportative of not being such/trying to raise fuss on others who are. We can talk all day long about trying to examine the SoP when it comes to the variations of Messianic Jewish thought and Jewish lifestyle that others didn't like (and used to be accustomed to not seeing discussed ) - but there needs to be honesty shown in dealing with the fact that the SoP was never honored when one trys to find ways of denouncing Christianity on a site made to support it.

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Bravo!! As you like to say, REAL

Talmidim said:

Someone called my words a hate filled rant. They are right.

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Sadly, the same and even more is piled upon you. I believe it was you who used to love to point out that when you point at someone you have three fingers pointing back at you. You just spent probably over an hour of ranting and pointing at others here Tal. You do the math......

Please calm down. It's not good for your blood preasure. Your an old man gramps, and your family wants you around for a little bit longer, no?

ContraMundum said:

Actually, I think the lines are very clear and work just fine. Just some people cannot compromise and live with the opinions of others in a charitable way. I really think that an internet forum is not for them.

We all say things that challenge others and that's ok. We feel insulted sometimes, and that's ok too. But to push to legislate for a monolithic set of accepted opinions based on one's own is to elevate one's own opinion far too highly. This is why CF and this particular sub-forum has permeable boundaries. Otherwise we would end up with forums of one or two people at best- who just pat each other on the back and agree as they pass cigars to each other and affirm their own supremacy. How dull. And spiritually dead.

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ναί. ἀμήν. καλῶς εἶπες.

talmidim said:

Have things degenerated so far in this forum that the Torah observant need walk on egg-shells?

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Seems to me that you would like everyone with an opinion or observance level different to the "Tal approved" standards to be the ones walking on egg shells.

Classic slippery slope. Torah observance is a relative term. eg. I don't think many M's are what I would call strictly observant. I'm fine with that, by the way. Why? Because what I call observant you would probably call pharisaic- but it works for me. I'm quite pharisaic by your standards, as far as I can tell. I'm fine with it. As I get older, I get more so. I just don't brag about it and shove it down the throats of others here.

Anyway, as EasyG has pointed out, the forum rules do in fact protect the forum from such subjective sippery slopes.

I really find it disturbing that you are far more judgmental on levels of observance than the strictest Rabbis I have ever met. They have an understanding on how hard it is. I'm not sure you appreciate that. Sorry to say it, but you have been overly vocal and agressive about this, so I must be frank. Once you've seen real strict observance, and lived with it, your view would be different.

yonah_mishael said:

ναί. ἀμήν. καλῶς εἶπες.

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Thanks....and nice FONT! Gotta find that!

ContraMundum said:

EasyG,

Thanks for pointing out that the house rules don't allow for the judging of other's level of observance. It had to be said. We are all different. Some keep the Feast etc very faithfully, others go further, others cut and paste as they grow and move along. The fact that someone could rage about it being a problem shows a lack of respect for those who are doing their best on the path to seek out living a life pleasing to God.

As usual, you have shown great patience and attention to detail and reminded us all about what is really important.

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THAT'S the blasted loophole that some have grabbed ahold of. So they play church on Sat! Big deal! That does not make one Torah observant! Sheesh!!! But it allows traditional christians in here who have no love for Torah whatsoever, and those of us who do and those who come in here to learn about it are stuck being bombarded with mainstream videos, and hundreds upon hundreds of non-Torah links. That is shameful. It's downright dishonest!

ContraMundum said:

Actually, I think the lines are very clear and work just fine. Just some people cannot compromise and live with the opinions of others in a charitable way. I really think that an internet forum is not for them.

We all say things that challenge others and that's ok. We feel insulted sometimes, and that's ok too. But to push to legislate for a monolithic set of accepted opinions based on one's own is to elevate one's own opinion far too highly. This is why CF and this particular sub-forum has permeable boundaries. Otherwise we would end up with forums of one or two people at best- who just pat each other on the back and agree as they pass cigars to each other and affirm their own supremacy. How dull. And spiritually dead.

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Every one called is identifiable by their faith. They wish to congregate with those who heard the same calling. IT is so much nicer to have a place to go, where they can develop in peace. All I am suggesting is, when a controversy is so important to the identity of "said" faith, it is also very important that they have a home. For example... I could never abide by any suggestion of Noahide for gentiles which Judaism like to keep pushing gentiles towards. Nor can I identify with sunday keepers. Thus in looking for a home congregation here on CF, Messianic Judaism is the closest one I have found which I can relate with Sabbath keeping, Feast keeping, law abiding, faith in Yeshua, living a Yeshua style Torah observance of my faith. Others have a different combination and also would like to fellowship with like. All I am suggesting is congregational areas for each. That way when someone comes into MJ asking questions, they do not get an Anglican [name any other Christian Catholic or Protestant faith] Jew answer, nor a Two House answer, or Orthodox Jew, etc. etc. etc.

If they wanted their question answered by any of these other bodies of people, they could go to a different congregation area and ask them. They then can determine the differences, the reasons why and if they are interesting in learning more about any one of those branches. Right now, it is so much from so many branches it sounds like white noise.

ContraMundum said:

But to push to legislate for a monolithic set of accepted opinions based on one's own is to elevate one's own opinion far too highly. This is why CF and this particular sub-forum has permeable boundaries. Otherwise we would end up with forums of one or two people at best- who just pat each other on the back and agree as they pass cigars to each other and affirm their own supremacy. How dull. And spiritually dead.

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It has been this way for 10yrs, think it will ever change? Seems no matter where this little (majority) group lands, they always complain they are persecuted and have to round the wagons. They can't even seem to contain themselves and be happy within a forum made just for them (MD). I remember when they all left in a huff ( the second time) to live happily over their. That didn't last long, did it.

I agree with you (now) though, we have to all get along. We have to share the love of Messiah. The rest is all hanging on that. I've learned the hard way that it's the bull in the room that gets penned in. So here we seem to have a few bulls wanting their own pen again........ nothing new under the sun, ey?

yedida said:

THAT'S the blasted loophole that some have grabbed ahold of. So they play church on Sat! Big deal! That does not make one Torah observant! Sheesh!!! But it allows traditional christians in here who have no love for Torah whatsoever, and those of us who do and those who come in here to learn about it are stuck being bombarded with mainstream videos, and hundreds upon hundreds of non-Torah links. That is shameful. It's downright dishonest!

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I think that is a rash judgment on others, and really not even accurate from what I have observed in my 7+ years here. Just about everyone on this forum has a deep respect for the Torah- yet it is understood differently and applied differently, and this has been a constant factor for centuries.

I think the forum rules allow for a diversity that you clearly are not comfortable with. Also, you should remember that your level of observance could one day be judged (and found insufficient) should the rules be different. The shoe would be on the other foot then.

Whoever has convinced you that this place is not "good enough" or not "obsverant enough" has certainly misunderstood the role and place (Christian Forums) of this sub-forum. Please re-think and lay down the angry judgments.

visionary said:

Every one called is identifiable by their faith. They wish to congregate with those who heard the same calling. IT is so much nicer to have a place to go, where they can develop in peace. All I am suggesting is, when a controversy is so important to the identity of "said" faith, it is also very important that they have a home. For example... I could never abide by any suggestion of Noahide for gentiles which Judaism like to keep pushing gentiles towards. Nor can I identify with sunday keepers. Thus in looking for a home congregation here on CF, Messianic Judaism is the closest one I have found which I can relate with Sabbath keeping, Feast keeping, law abiding, faith in Yeshua, living a Yeshua style Torah observance of my faith. Others have a different combination and also would like to fellowship with like. All I am suggesting is congregational areas for each. That way when someone comes into MJ asking questions, they do not get an Anglican [name any other Christian Catholic or Protestant faith] Jew answer, nor a Two House answer, or Orthodox Jew, etc. etc. etc.

If they wanted their question answered by any of these other bodies of people, they could go to a different congregation area and ask them. They then can determine the differences, the reasons why and if they are interesting in learning more about any one of those branches. Right now, it is so much from so many branches it sounds like white noise.

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I understand. We do have provision for this though.

Shimshon said:

It has been this way for 10yrs, think it will ever change? Seems no matter where this little (majority) group lands, they always complain they are persecuted and have to round the wagons. They can't even seem to contain themselves and be happy within a forum made just for them (MD). I remember when they all left in a huff ( the second time) to live happily over their. That didn't last long, did it.

I agree with you (now) though, we have to all get along. We have to share the love of Messiah. The rest is all hanging on that. I've learned the hard way that it's the bull in the room that gets penned in. So here we seem to have a few bulls wanting their own pen again........ nothing new under the sun, ey?

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Good point!

The collective 'we' are not supposed to judge anyones observances here. Not according to the SOP, site wide rules, OR the Word of God.

The fact that it happens ad nausium and to no end (love to repeat myself) is what is so shameful.

Colossians 2 said:

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations-- 21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)--according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

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Do not judge by observance to Torah OR other practices. To judge is to break down the body. The body that Messiah forms and holds together. YOU have an issue, take it up with God, or the Mod's, but PLEASE, if you claim to be 'in' Messiah, why would you do things against Him and his body?

ContraMundum said:

Thanks....and nice FONT! Gotta find that!

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That’s just Times New Roman, man.

ContraMundum said:

We all say things that challenge others and that's ok. We feel insulted sometimes, and that's ok too. But to push to legislate for a monolithic set of accepted opinions based on one's own is to elevate one's own opinion far too highly. This is why CF and this particular sub-forum has permeable boundaries. Otherwise we would end up with forums of one or two people at best- who just pat each other on the back and agree as they pass cigars to each other and affirm their own supremacy. How dull. And spiritually dead.

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On the latter part of what you noted, this is why it seems that a lot of fuss is often raised when it comes to wanting a certain view voiced. It is already the case that forums are made available on a number of sites for other Messianics to be allowed to express certain views as they wish - and many take advantage of that/are content to find that which suits them. However, for some sites/forums, it is the case that there is a lack of activity that they may desire. People may not frequent them as much as other sites - or, due to them being closed off from public, there's not a lot of exposure. And many times, it's due to only allowing for people of the same mind to be there/agreed with one another...patting on the head, as you well noted.

In some forums, there can be like-mindedness and agreement and things are quite active and there's good fruit - but in other places where common ideologies are accepted which many at large do not accept due to not seeing it as either appealing (or credible), you can expect that you probably won't see a lot of traffic come your way. It is at this point where things can become difficult - because others may have it where they have forums/sites they want to be like others in other ways while different in others...and the only way they can think of doing that is to essentially make the other place they want go with them.

There are a number of members here that post on multiple sites. Many, for the purpose of teaching truth and others doing so for purposes of seeking simple fellowship/community. But there is an understanding that whatever site you're on requires that you honor the ways that the site was developed/what it was set up for - and, in the event you don't like a site, make peace with it/deal with it....either in accepting it or moving on. You don't go in looking for other sites that have certain requirements and demanding that they adapt to your wishes while ignoring what they've asked for.

You may like a ministry more so because of it's restrictive environment and promoting things that you agree with - but if you see other forums/websites that have a much larger and more diverse audience, many of which are new seekers one may desire to speak to on Messianic culture, then there's going to be a natural desire to want that...and do whatever one feels necessary to attain that. It is not appropriate to attempt going to those places/subverting it to your own wants if the host site/forum it grows from has a boundary against what you advocate.

Rather than being happy with what is made available in other places, there can be a desire for what is availble apart from what they may have - and thus, it becomes a matter of basically doing the same thing that people did when it came to settlers seeing land they wanted to colonize...seeing profit in it...and then going in regardless of the previous rules/set up by those indigenious groups present - similar to what Columbus did when saying he "discovered America" and immediately began to talk of the benefits/set up shop.

How wild would it be to see someone walking up to me/reaching in my pant pockets and then saying "Well I discovered your wallet." It'd be crazy if such an event occurred and the person doing so then began to want dialouge on how you need to accomodate their desire for cash to help their family - even though they also want to tell you how to spend your money and have no desire to either be respectful in asking what you'd be comfortable with - or living within the requirments you set up - or being content to walk away/work with what they have, regardless of when they see someone who has something they want.

It can ultimately come back to the issue of what occurs when there are control issues - a lack of willingness to agree to disagree agreeably or to not throw fits over not getting your way - and others see something used for one purpose/want to make it their own without concern for how it was originally set up.

As it concerns CF/The Messianic Jewish Forums, indeed, the rules have been set in place to allow for diversity of thought - and to prevent any type of abuse of others when disagreement occurs. There has always been diversity in the Messianic Jewish world (and the world of Jewish believers alone - from the first century to the development of the Modern Messianic Movement). Others may not like that - but that doesn't mean one throws a tantrum over not having their view be the DOMINANT one/SOLE view expressed when the site never gave that option.

One could say they disagree with MJism/Messianic practice as it has always been in the mainstream or noted by other Messianics (i.e. Dan Juster of Tikkun Ministries International, Dr. Michael Brown of "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus" and "Real Messiah", Asher Intrader of Revive Israel Ministries, of James Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries , Rico Cortez, and many others found in the Sticky Resource section)--but to say that any disagreement leads to being not "Messianic Jewish" is like a Caucasian from the suburbs saying that those in African-American culture are not truly "black" the moment other blacks speak up and note where the man's definition of blackness doesn't line up with the cultural definition of such.

yonah_mishael said:

That’s just Times New Roman, man.

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OH goodness. LOL I didn't even think of that.

Easy G (G²);62085443 said:

One could say they disagree with MJism/Messianic practice as it has always been in the mainstream or noted by other Messianics (i.e. Dan Juster of Tikkun Ministries International, Dr. Michael Brown of "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus" and "Real Messiah", Asher Intrader of Revive Israel Ministries, of James Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries , Rico Cortez, and many others found in the Sticky Resource section)--but to say that any disagreement leads to being not "Messianic Jewish" is like a Caucasian from the suburbs saying that those in African-American culture are not truly "black" the moment other blacks speak up and note where the man's definition of blackness doesn't line up with the cultural definition of such.

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Wow...good analogy!

Easy G (G²) said:

One could say they disagree with MJism/Messianic practice as it has always been in the mainstream or noted by other Messianics (i.e. Dan Juster of Tikkun Ministries International, Dr. Michael Brown of "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus" and "Real Messiah", Asher Intrader of Revive Israel Ministries, of James Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries , Rico Cortez, and many others found in the Sticky Resource section)--but to say that any disagreement leads to being not "Messianic Jewish" is like a Caucasian from the suburbs saying that those in African-American culture are not truly "black" the moment other blacks speak up and note where the man's definition of blackness doesn't line up with the cultural definition of such.

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Seems like when the SoP was more in line with the MJAA(based on the MJAA)things were different. Not saying it was better or worse just an observation.