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Just as you would have only certain obligations as it applies to your life... What is this "obligation to the entire law" ? Yeshua could not even be obligated to the entire law as He was not levite, female, etc... Yet as we all are, the "obligation" to acknowledge its role in our society [congregation] whether Jew or Gentile holds us all together as a community of believers.That is where we would differ. When I read the Torah, I the Mosaic law given to the Jewish people as all of the law is addressed to the Jewish people or a segment of the Jewish people. Some commands are given to the Gentiles as the Gentiles are specifically mentioned as included in that obligation. So, if the Gentile people attended the synagogues to hear Moses, they would see the law as they are applicable to the various people groups. Plus, they would have heard the Rabbinical teaching which would apply only a subset of laws to the Gentiles.
So, yes, they would be incorporating it into their lives, but would not feel obligated to the entire law given in the Mosaic covenant, since they are Gentiles/not Jewish.
You have to wonder - if Yeshua was fully observant - how far he'd go. Did Yeshua choose to make offerings of atonement for himself as all were required to as Jewish males in Israel? He was God - and yet for a long time, no one thought he was anything other than a Law-abiding Jewish citizen. And I think it'd be interesting to see him in the temple when sacrifices for sin were made and he particpated - for he would've obviously had a radically different mindset behind why he did so than other Jewish citizens.Just as you would have only certain obligations as it applies to your life... What is this "obligation to the entire law" ? Yeshua could not even be obligated to the entire law as He was not levite, female, etc... Yet as we all are, the "obligation" to acknowledge its role in our society [congregation] whether Jew or Gentile holds us all together as a community of believers.
Just as you would have only certain obligations as it applies to your life... What is this "obligation to the entire law" ? Yeshua could not even be obligated to the entire law as He was not levite, female, etc... Yet as we all are, the "obligation" to acknowledge its role in our society [congregation] whether Jew or Gentile holds us all together as a community of believers.
Easy G (G²);62113119 said:You have to wonder - if Yeshua was fully observant - how far he'd go. Did Yeshua choose to make offerings of atonement for himself as all were required to as Jewish males in Israel? He was God - and yet for a long time, no one thought he was anything other than a Law-abiding Jewish citizen. And I think it'd be interesting to see him in the temple when sacrifices for sin were made and he particpated - for he would've obviously had a radically different mindset behind why he did so than other Jewish citizens.
Yep... and for me it was both... as I was not born nor raised in either camp, that which believed in the Messiah or the Torah, so I too am an outcast from my family because of my beliefs. Yep.. we are now in the same congregation of believers, believers in Yeshua, and His Holy Torah.I grew up in Judaism, so the Mosaic law is nothing new to me. When I accepted Yeshua, the Jewish community didn't really want me around. What was new is Yeshua. So when I joined in with other Messianic Jews in Messianic Judaism, we had all grown up in Judaism but were now outcastes because of our belief in Yeshua. What held us together, was our belief in Yeshua.
So, for me, it is not about the Mosaic law. That has always been in my life. What makes me Messianic is Yeshua. If it were not for Yeshua, I would not be a Messianic Jew.
I don't believe he had any sins he needed to make sacrifices for - no more than he had to be baptized as a sign of repentance like he did anything wrong....although he did participate in both baptism and the sacrificial system - and it'd be very odd for Christ to make sacrifices and yet leave out an entire relevant category while he was on Earth - and telling other Jewish men "I don't have to do this as the Law asks for all men regardless since God says all must do these sacrifices"What sins would he have had to make sacrifices for?
Indeed . Offerings of thanksgiving and gratitude I can see Christ doing with no issue - but the ones for sin all had to do I wrestle with....as he simultaneously claimed to be without sin/God and yet be for all of the Law. To others hearing his claims of being Messiah, I wonder how seriously they could take him if he's making the same sacrifices they feel are to be made for men who are sinful and yet he's claiming to them that He is without sin/the one they need to look to.Some sacrifices were mandatory. Pilgrimage festivals required participants to bring offerings. 'You shall not appear before me empty-handed.'
What sins would he have had to make sacrifices for?
Some sacrifices were mandatory. Pilgrimage festivals required participants to bring offerings. 'You shall not appear before me empty-handed.'
I have pointed this out before: after a person converted to Judaism, the sages said that the community should not be overly meticulous with the new convert. Converts were given a few light and a few heavy commandments to start with. As time went on they were expected to incorporate more.
I believe that this is what the Jerusalem Councils ruling amounts to: a dispensation for new believers in Jesus in order not to discourage them with ALL the commandments at once. They were given essential ones at the beginning to separate them from idolatry BUT they were expected to adopt more as they matured; this is why the phrase 'Moses is read every sabbath in the synagogue' appears there. It was there that they would CONTINUE to learn and add mitzvot to their praxis.
I would call this Divine Expectation rather than Divine Invitation.
As Yeshua said "suffer it to be so"I don't think it was a 'baptism' or 'immersion' to do with John's ministry to the ordinary people. It was, more likely, to have been his anointing as King and High Priest. I can't see Yeshua being involved in a deception to accept the immersion of John, knowing it to be for cleansing from sin and nothing to do with the imparting of the Holy Spirit (as we know from Acts).
Yeshua sees a fulfillment of righteousness in getting this immersion. ... As immersions [mikvahs] go, there are many reasons why and what for are they required. Which of these was Yeshua refering to as a "fulfillment of righteousness" is a good question.Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
When I read the Torah, I the Mosaic law given to the Jewish people as all of the law is addressed to the Jewish people or a segment of the Jewish people. Some commands are given to the Gentiles as the Gentiles are specifically mentioned as included in that obligation. So, if the Gentile people attended the synagogues to hear Moses, they would see the law as they are applicable to the various people groups. Plus, they would have heard the Rabbinical teaching which would apply only a subset of laws to the Gentiles.
So, yes, they would be incorporating it into their lives, but would not feel obligated to the entire law given in the Mosaic covenant, since they are Gentiles/not Jewish.
As Yeshua said "suffer it to be so" Yeshua sees a fulfillment of righteousness in getting this immersion. ... As immersions [mikvahs] go, there are many reasons why and what for are they required. Which of these was Yeshua refering to as a "fulfillment of righteousness" is a good question.
I was actually looking for a specific mikvah written in the Law of Moses regarding this particular act of righteousness.Every mikvah is a fulfillment of righteousness, because it is part of the process to be "set apart".
I don't think it was a 'baptism' or 'immersion' to do with John's ministry to the ordinary people. It was, more likely, to have been his anointing as King and High Priest. I can't see Yeshua being involved in a deception to accept the immersion of John, knowing it to be for cleansing from sin and nothing to do with the imparting of the Holy Spirit (as we know from Acts).
48 pages of very public acrimony.
Great idea.
As Yeshua said "suffer it to be so" Yeshua sees a fulfillment of righteousness in getting this immersion. ... As immersions [mikvahs] go, there are many reasons why and what for are they required. Which of these was Yeshua refering to as a "fulfillment of righteousness" is a good question.
King David was set apart with the anointing of oil. What set a priest apart was their bloodline. In either case, it was not immersion [mikvah]. The closest thing I can think of, is the priest would "wash" before entering into the Holy Temple.He didn't need man to declare him as King (in fact when they tried to make him king he refused and walked away) and neither did he need man to make him a High Priest. He submitted to it because his father had decreed that King and Priest had to be set apart.
King David was set apart with the anointing of oil. What set a priest apart was their bloodline. In either case, it was not immersion [mikvah]. The closest thing I can think of, is the priest would "wash" before entering into the Holy Temple.
Good analogy..Yeshua was in a different line of Priesthood. Aaron (and his sons) were washed by others before he could be prepared for anointing. Yeshua's anointing was from heaven in the form of a dove, after he had been washed by John.
Yeshua was in a different line of Priesthood. Aaron (and his sons) were washed by others before he could be prepared for anointing. Yeshua's anointing was from heaven in the form of a dove, after he had been washed by John.
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