Messianic Judaism?

[pat34lee]

I completely understand that Messianic Judaism is in chaos at the moment, and there needs to be a unified statement of beliefs, but please don't discount those new comers, who are earnestly inquiring into Messianic Judaism. They may bring some preconceived ideas to the table, and some of those ideas will be wrong due to ignorance. Instead of rejecting them, or attacking them, maybe we should try to mentor them?

Maz

First, people should listen with an open mind. There is such a thing as progressive revelation. The MJ system of 20+ years ago still has much room for improvement.

 

[Mazock]

First, people should listen with an open mind. There is such a thing as progressive revelation. The MJ system of 20+ years ago still has much room for improvement.

Haha...

That was the arguement my pastor used against Messianic Judaism

Maz

 

[Qnts2]

Some of you may be aware that I've recently come to Messianic Judaism from a Pentecostal background. And as such have had some problems with my family and friends accepting the change.


Maz

Maz,

Just a question so I understand where you are coming from.

When you say Pentecostal do you mean like AOG? Or UPC?

 

[visionary]

Haha...

That was the arguement my pastor used against Messianic Judaism

Maz

Obviously, you are still being led by His Spirit and still following Him. Keep in line with His Word in His Spirit in your life and you will do well .. thanking Him everyday for knowing and have a wonderful relationship with Him, whom has become your comforter, and best friend.

 

[Mazock]

Maz,

Just a question so I understand where you are coming from.

When you say Pentecostal do you mean like AOG? Or UPC?

I was raised AoG and have just come from a Foursquare church.

All wonderful people

I still hold a small group with friends from the Foursquare Church.

Maz

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I recently spoke with one of a good pastor friend of mine, and he indicated that "a proper understanding of Hermeneutics" was require to interpret scripture.

Check out Christy Anderson at www.foritiswritten.com

She put together a good book on hermeneutics from a Messianic perspective. Heard her speak in Albuquerque, NM a couple years ago.

 

[Qnts2]

and right now in this thread we are trying to come to a working solution for those who have more feet into traditional Judaism attitude regarding gentiles and pushing gentiles back to a Christiandom version they just left and do not want to return to.

Let me just say, no one is trying to push Gentiles back to something they do not want to return to. But, Messianic Judaism, is a Judaism. It is not an attitude regarding Gentiles but is actually coming from scripture. In the Tenakh, was there a difference between Jews and Gentiles? The answer is yes. The Jewish people received the Mosaic law, and along with that received certain promises from God.

When the New Covenant was established, did it change the Mosaic covenant? No. The Mosaic covenant, made with the children of Israel can not be changed.

Vis, normally I agree with a lot of what you say, but on this one, it seems like more of an attack against Jewish believers. Yes, I grew up in Judaism, and I taught Judaism, and helped in the training of converts to Judaism, so I am relatively well versed in Judaism. Is Judaism all wrong? NO. It was because of Judaism, when I read the NT, I realized Jesus was the promised Messiah. So, of course I am not going to throw away all I learned and taught in Judaism. Judaism is based on the Tenakh, which is the words of God. It is not evil or all wrong as some like to think.

 

[Qnts2]

I was raised AoG and have just come from a Foursquare church.

All wonderful people

I still hold a small group with friends from the Foursquare Church.

Maz

Ok good and thank you.

BTW, many in Messianic Judaism believe the spiritual gifts continue today, but would disagree with some things AOG teaches.

I have friends who attend AOG churches and others who attend independent Charismatic churches, and some Baptist friends to. All great people, and definitely family in the Lord, even though we don't always agree.

 

[Mazock]

but would disagree with some things AOG teaches.

Me too!

 

[Avodat]

Basic level hermenuetics is the same, whether for Christianity or MJism. It is a discipline that must be learned and applied. At a higher level it involves not just a basic understanding of the text on the page, but must also include the underlying historical, social and academic reasons as to why that particular text is in that place, on that page. That also applies whether one is looking at Christianity or Mjism, but the 'how' of hermenuetics depends, largely, on where we are coming from (etic or emic) and, more importantly, the baggage we each carry; none of us can be truly objective.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I was raised AoG and have just come from a Foursquare church.

All wonderful people

I still hold a small group with friends from the Foursquare Church.

Maz

Foursquare Churches rock!! I have some friends involved in such and doing much for the Kingdom. Beautiful people - and a lot of my friends were raised in AoG. There are a lot of variations of that - and if I'm not mistaken, one prominent Messianic Jewish leader/scholar known as Dr.Michael Brown was actively connected with AoG due to his Charismatic leanings - although he later broke away with AG (and more discussed here, here , here, here, and here on that).

 

[visionary]

Let me just say, no one is trying to push Gentiles back to something they do not want to return to. But, Messianic Judaism, is a Judaism. It is not an attitude regarding Gentiles but is actually coming from scripture. In the Tenakh, was there a difference between Jews and Gentiles? The answer is yes. The Jewish people received the Mosaic law, and along with that received certain promises from God.

When the New Covenant was established, did it change the Mosaic covenant? No. The Mosaic covenant, made with the children of Israel can not be changed.

Vis, normally I agree with a lot of what you say, but on this one, it seems like more of an attack against Jewish believers. Yes, I grew up in Judaism, and I taught Judaism, and helped in the training of converts to Judaism, so I am relatively well versed in Judaism. Is Judaism all wrong? NO. It was because of Judaism, when I read the NT, I realized Jesus was the promised Messiah. So, of course I am not going to throw away all I learned and taught in Judaism. Judaism is based on the Tenakh, which is the words of God. It is not evil or all wrong as some like to think.

It is not the covenant that is the problem, it is an attitude that I do not believe God ever to want His people to have towards other nations. Just like Jonah to Nineveh [gentile town] to repent reveals God's call for His people to be teachers of Torah to the nations of the world. Not "Torah for us, one non Torah type thingy for everyone else". ... as in go back to Christiandom's "law done away with" or "go ahead substitute ..... for Torah instructions" as we don't care attitude what you do as long as you do not try to be obedient to our Holy One of Israel or even better "here take Noahide", we made it just for gentiles. These things did not come from Torah nor God and yet it has been presented on this forum like it is all good for gentiles.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

The Book

This is a more direct link to Christy Anderson's book.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In the real world no I don't find Messianic Judaism to be a magnet for dis-affected non Jewish believers. I believe that the region you live makes a big difference. When one isn't physically in touch I believe it makes a difference. Most heavy populated areas have Messianic congregations. I'm in Philly and this is the case.

I find that most dis-affected are those that live in somewhat of seclusion and/or out of touch physically with society. So the only fellowship and teaching they have is what they find on the internet. I also think not living near a Jewish community makes a huge difference. Most of the Jewish communities for the most part are located in the big cities and/ North East and on the coasts. And most if not all Jewish communities have a Messianic congregation close by. My congregation 'believe it or not' opened up smack in my old neighborhood where there was one conservative and 2 orthodox synagogue within walking distance and at least 3 other synagogues within driving distance.

What I see here is not even close to my experience in the real physical world fellowship.

This is why I believe that Messianic Judaism is perceived to be all over the place. It is all over the place per se but if I never came online I wouldn't know any other way if you get what I'm saying. Actually really it isn't all over the place. The more notable Messianic Jewish organizations are somewhat united in their theology. .

Excellent analysis - as I've seen the same many times when it comes to the world of online experience and how many who seem dissatisfied don't even go to any type of fellowships - and when they do, rarely was it one where others held them accountable. I'd also note that many others have it where they are in sin patterns at home and thus coming online can be a place of escape from reality - and yet the larger Jewish community is not really connected with them. Many have noted how Messianic Judaism abroad - with Jewish communities in Israel or other nations - is often radically different in what they emphasize and value than what is often shared in online forums or American Messianic fellowships. You don't see other Jewish communities in Israel wrangling with others in saying "Lovers of God's Law/Yeshua cannot be known as Christians!!!" since the terms "Messianic" and "Christian" are often simultaneous.

You'll not see with Messianic Jews in Austraila a focus on who is or isn't more "Observant" since their mindset is how to live out the Word of God where they're at. Messianic Mommy said it best when sharing the following (and I take it seriously what she says since she has lived abroad/noted the issue before):

Originally Posted by MessianicMommy

1. No one is called to observe exactly the same way all the time as someone else in the rest of the world. There are different flavors of Judaism the world over due to the various places Jews live. Someone in Yemen isn't going to observe Torah or the Talmud in the same way as someone in Scandinavia. Someone in South Australia won't be observing as someone in America.
We need to recognise a healthy difference in observation where this is concerned. No one is to be condemned for difference in observation, as even in America, differences are observed from shuk to shuk. No?

2. There are different interpretations of what "The law"/"the Torah" is. We need to have definable ways of understanding where everyone is posting from, and possibly which organization they align with. This would create less confusion as to where we are posting from. It is not to ghettoize anyone, but to create a level playing field where our scrolls are not giving us this.
We have individuals that say they obey Torah and are observant, and those of us who are are wondering what level of kashrut they hold to, when WHAM a post comes up by that poster that aligns more along the line of a Hebrew Christian organization that teaches against keeping Kosher on any level, and that it's silly to celebrate anything other than major Jewish holidays - we have a problem. This is where MUCH of the arguing is coming from, and no I've not participated because it has been quite difficult to suss out the different flavors of people without it ending in a tar and feathering.

3. We need everyone to respect each other and approach arguments POSITIVELY. IF we keep addressing posts in the negative, we're just going to see more and more fur fly.

I believe if we did a book series together as a study, perhaps starting with the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and then moving on to something like "Boundaries" By Townsend and Cloud - we might get somewhere. We might better understand the other posters, their backgrounds and the abuse that has gone on in their past, and we might figure out some better boundaries for each other without having to have the moderators and administration step in.
I like G's suggestion of Skype, but the reality is that we live in vastly different time zones and continents, so this will be difficult. I can't imagine a time where I could catch Contra for example, in that he's around 9 hours difference from me. I might catch you or Ani in the wee hours of the morning, because you're in California. I could catch anyone here in Europe rather easily, because our time difference is probably plus or minus 2 hours vs the vast difference of -5 to -9 hours.

We do need fellowship threads, but those are not going to happen with the break down we currently have. It's like trying to thrust two opposing football fan groups together. It's going to end in riot and much damage.

............
Please do not take this the wrong way, but haven't you seen the same behavior on several Jewish forums where people suss out what someone else believes and practices and then takes a "hands off" approach when they find out that the other poster's observance level is not the same, nor are their beliefs?

I sure have.

There will be different views and opinions depending on the level of one's orthodoxy as to how they feel and interact with other Orthodox Jews, with Conservative, Conservadox, Reform, Reconstructionist and any other flavor there can possibly be of other Jews.

Shoot, you walk in the door of a Synagogue and once someone knows your name, they want to know who you're related to, where you're from, if you were raised Jewish or not, and how you came to be there, in the first 5 minutes. It's enough to give the uninitiated a panic attack - but it happens!



.......we have different levels of observance here, and those of us who believe like others here, wish to discuss that level of observance unhindered. This is not something out of the ordinary.

And yes, I have met many Jews who have had absolutely no level of Jewish upbringing come into the movement and not know what to do. They come in to learn how to have a healthy balance in their belief and observance.

"To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish. "

To those not familiar with Messianic Judaism, it may seem as if we're picking at nits, but truth be told, we're working out issues together with individuals in a way that a home group or cell group might not allow.

.........How the AMC/J4J and a Messianic congregation that is aligned with a mainline protestant denomination will see and teach Torah will be entirely different from how someone in the MJAA, UMJC and any other denominational Messianic movement around the world will. In fact, our level of observance here in Germany is vastly different than the majority who are in the Beit Sar Shalom umbrella. We align more with the local Jewish community in our beliefs and practices, because we do not worship on Sun/Wed, do not keep the Christian festivals (there are many more than are observed in the USA), and how we dress. You could pick us out as different in the crowd every time.

It is not a bad thing. It is just "different". We are all at our different levels and walks, hopefully because G-d led us there and we have a job to do where we are. If not, we need to do some serious soul searching and find out what we should be doing.

In the meantime, we are here together, and need to work out how to respond to each other in a constructive way, without making more fur fly, or call on helpers to tar and feather someone.
​

Messianic Mommy,

Originally Posted by MessianicMommy

What I don't understand is why some, not all on this forum; cannot take a stance that there are others all along the road of observance - share your view and move on if you disagree. There are AMICABLE ways to talk about what I believe and what You believe, and what s/he believes and they do... without it ever becoming anything other than thinking and working positively with those facts.

Sure the MJAA does xzy, and the UCMJ does abc and BSS in Germany does def and IAMCS does ghi and so and so does zbeh... when it comes to the forum, we COULD discuss that without everyone getting their underoos in a wad. It's where we all as adults have to move past our hurts, our baggage and just decide to either not discuss, or bow out before things get too heated.

I believe at this point it might be beneficial for us to just take any debate off the table and work on fellowship, and then perhaps we can bring it back.


​

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It is not the covenant that is the problem, it is an attitude that I do not believe God ever to want His people to have towards other nations. Just like Jonah to Nineveh [gentile town] to repent reveals God's call for His people to be teachers of Torah to the nations of the world. Not "Torah for us, one non Torah type thingy for everyone else". ... .

Jonah never taught Torah to the City of Ninevah, actually - something many Messianic Jews have noted when it comes to seeing others act as if his simply proclaiming "Repent" meant follow all things in Mosaic Law that the Hebrews were given (as that'd be inconsistent with what God himself said in the Mosaic Law - and what occurred with others, from Jethro to the Rechabites and many others).

There are way too many Jewish believers/Jewish communities who've noted that for it to be ignored -or dismissed as if it's somehow a negative to acknowledge that, if the goal is truly to walk as the Jewish people/Hebrews were called to. For it is illogical when Gentiles ignore what the Torah say and ignore what other Jewish believers have said in the claim that "You're not saying something we Gentiles need according to the Lord" when what the Lord said of Gentiles isn't be accepted as He said it directly.

 

[visionary]

Jonah never taught Torah to the City of Ninevah, actually - something many Messianic Jews have noted when it comes to seeing others act as if his simply proclaiming "Repent" meant follow all things in Mosaic Law that the Hebrews were given (as that'd be inconsistent with what God himself said in the Mosaic Law - and what occurred with others, from Jethro to the Rechabites and many others).

Nineveh looked at this Jew coming to their town calling them to repent.. conviction wasn't for them to be more pagan, but to come closer to the Holy One of Israel in faith. No it doesn't mean there was an instant Jewish nation of believers in the town who followed all Torah, but a knowing there is a lot of things they were doing not in line with what the Holy One of Israel required and repenting, transforming to do more to being in line of what is required. God has never expected an instant transformation of any nation, not even Israel at the foot of Mount Sinai. But he does expect a repentant and learning heart towards Him.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Nineveh looked at this Jew coming to their town calling them to repent.. conviction wasn't for them to be more pagan, but to come closer to the Holy One of Israel in faith. No No it doesn't mean there was an instant Jewish nation of believers in the town who followed all Torah, but a knowing there is a lot of things they were doing not in line with what the Holy One of Israel required and repenting, transforming to do more to being in line of what is required. .

Of course it is the case that they realized what it was the Holy One of Israel wanted them to cease - as it concern evil and cruelty (which they were notorious for) - and yet it doesn't mean that they were called to live as Israel did in order to show repentance.

Again, it has never been shown that Jonah called the people of Ninevah to obey all things in the Mosaic Law as the Hebrews were called - and to say otherwise without dealing with the text is reading past what actually happened...and avoiding what other Jewish communities have long said on the matter.


Job would be a good study on the subject, seeing that he was not an Israelite and yet is often assumed to be.

Job himself was a righteous man after God whom God highly favored---with many scholars saying that Job actually existed way before Abraham did. The Israelite author presents Job as a person living in Uz, which is outside the borders of Israel itself ---and His piety (Job 1:1) exemplifies the ideal in Israelite wisdom and He invokes the name of Yahweh (Job 1:21). But at the same time, his relationship to Abraham's offspring remains a mystery. The events of the book seem to be set in the times of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The way Ezekiel 14:14 and Ezekiel 14:20 refer to Job along with two others apparently from ancient times enhances this impression....and so do the favorite names for the deity, God" (Hb. 'Eloah, the singular of 'Elohim) and "the Almighty" (Hb. Shadday), which seem more suited to the days before the Exodus 3:14 and Exodus 6:3 instances. The name Yahweh, the Lord, appear only in Job 1-2 and Job 38-42, with one lone exception in the middle of the book, 12:9). Again, the prophet Ezekiel mentions Job along with Noah and Daniel, and this seems to imply that he took Job as a real perosn. This is also the implication of James 5:11. With what was noted by Ezekiel, its interesting to see Noah and Job listed together---as Noah and Job are well-known righteous men of the past (Genesis 6:9, Job 1:1) - with Noah being called a "preacher of rignteousness" ( 2 Peter 2:4-6 )..and Noah existed before the era after the Flood. Its possible that Job either existed at the same time as Noah or came directly after Him.

But the text makes clear Job was in the form of a priest, making sacrifices for the sake of his children/family and intercedding for them..and that was all in the abscence of Mosaic Code. How did he know that? It seems logical that the Lord revealed Himself to Him personally - and even if others didn't do things, his heart of truth/repentance was based on personal relationship before what He knew of the Lord.

The same occurred with Jethro, as Jethro stood outside of the Covenant Community...yet displayed uncanny knowledge of God. With Jethro, in Exodus 18, he was a priest of Midian (Exodus 3:1, Exodus 4:18)...and in light of the difficulty of both Egypt and the journey to Rephidim, Jethro's coming to meet Moses displays a relational posture of peace and encouragement, similar to when Aaron met Moses "at the mountain of God on his return from Midian (Exodus 4:27-31). Amazingly, after simply hearing about what the Lord had done on Israel's belalf, Jethro's words and actions represent a more faithful response than came from many of those who had experienced the events in Egypt (not to mention Egypt itself, as well as Amalek). For when he says, "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods" in verse 11, he echoes the purpose that the Lord said the plagues were to have for both Israel (Exodus 6:7) and Egypt (Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:15). When Jethro brought burnt offerings and sacrifices and ate before God with Moses, Aaron and the elders, he prefigured the pattern of life that the Lord would reveal further at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 12:5-7). Moreover, Jethro was used by the Lord to help him find a faithful and workable way to have others bear the burden of judging the people and ensuring their well-being --His words becoming central to Israel's makeup in choosing judges (Exodus 18:13-26).

Thus, with Jonah, his preaching "Repent" to the City of Ninevah did not mean that they did not already have some awareness of what it was the Lord expected of them - for it was a matter of them choosing to walk in righteousness where they were at. And there was a context. As Messianic Steve Collins noted:

Jonah’s fears came to pass. When the Assyrians fasted, changed their behaviors and prayed for mercy, God gave them mercy and cancelled their punishment (Jonah 3:10). It should be noted that the “repentance” of the Ninevites was not repentance in the sense of any “conversion” experience. There is no indication in the Bible hat they tore down their Assyrian idols and adopted the laws of the Torah that Moses had received from God on Mt. Sinai. They simply “humbled themselves” before God. The Ninevites had the same kind of reaction that King Ahab of ancient Israel did when he heard of God’s severe judgment upon him in I Kings 21:1-26. King Ahab did not get “converted” by any means, but he did “humble himself’ by rending his clothes, fasting, wearing sackcloth and “going softly.” Even as God deferred the judgment he had pronounced upon Ahab due to his “humbling himself,” God also canceled his judgment upon Nineveh when they also “humbled themselves.”


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WIth living out righteousness where one's at, Hilliel noted the same when it came to how his school saw Gentiles/other non-Jews living out righteous lives and yet never being a part of Israel.

Yeshua had the same mindset, as he did it with the Demonized man in Mark 5 - simply telling him to go and tell the world what Christ had done in freeing him. The same also happened for the Samaritan Woman who evangelized her entire town with the news of who the Messiah was. Paul also noted the same in Romans 1 and 2-3 directly when noting what it meant to have the Law of God written on the hearts of men - with all men being without excuse since all can come to know him due to His revealing Himself in nature. It's why a person in the Amazon jungles who never knew of Mosaic Law would still have to give an account to the Lord for what they know - and the Lord working with them individually. Some things are commonly known...

If one feels that they are called to live out a Jewish lifestyle, that is within the realm of conversion and there is that freedom. However, the Torah never advocates that all Gentile believers in Messiah were ever called to do that---nor did Torah at any point say that all Gentile believers were to be the same automatically as Jewish people since there've always been a diversity of laws. Most scholars have noted where Christ Himself often spoke directly in line with the Pharisees, specifically the school of Hiliel....often directly at odds with the School of Shemai (which had a very LOW view of Gentiles and happened to be one that many Pharisees in the days of Christ were with). Hiliel was involved with the school advocating for the Gentiles to not live fully as the Jews in order to achieve salvation...with their salvation being tied to things expressed to Noah and known generally amongst mankind. But Shammai's school felt Gentiles would be doomed for an eternity apart from the Lord if they didn't convert FULLY to Jewish lifestyles/law. And because of that, both schools often fought. It was this context that Yeshua stepped into, seeing how some of the Pharisees were of the Hiliel school and others of Shammai...and the latter felt Christ was often stepping over the line for daring to say the things He did with Gentiles--just as it was with Paul.

More was discussed here in #15 and #167 ...as it concerns the book by scholar, Harvey Faulk, called "Jesus the Pharisee. Time Magazine did an excellent review on the subject as well. The book by Harvey Faulk has truly been a blessing/good way to build dialouge between those who are Christians and Jews----as its often the case that both sides miss the Mark when trying to polarize. Of course, I don't agree with all of his conclusions. In example, I don't think he really grapples with those areas in which Jesus and the School of Hillel did most definitely part company---and for more, go here. Christ, as a teacher/rabbi, would be taken in His teachings (IMHO) as having his own form of Halacha whenever He challenged that of others while referencing what they did at the same time....such as with the Good Samaritan Story (more discussed here, here, here, here, and here ) or Matthew 23 when he essentially quoted directly from rabbinical law/Talmud on the differing kinds of Pharisees.


Paul went into great detail in Romans 1-3 when discussing what salvation was truly meant to be about when it came to the righteousness found in Christ..a righteousness found apart from the Law since only Christ could make men righteous. This is what it means to be a follower of Christ---and when Gentiles and Jews come together in FAITH calling out on the name of the Lord/trusting in His provision, they will indeed be saved and transformed.

 

[pat34lee]

Let me just say, no one is trying to push Gentiles back to something they do not want to return to. But, Messianic Judaism, is a Judaism. It is not an attitude regarding Gentiles but is actually coming from scripture. In the Tenakh, was there a difference between Jews and Gentiles? The answer is yes. The Jewish people received the Mosaic law, and along with that received certain promises from God.

When the New Covenant was established, did it change the Mosaic covenant? No. The Mosaic covenant, made with the children of Israel can not be changed.

Vis, normally I agree with a lot of what you say, but on this one, it seems like more of an attack against Jewish believers. Yes, I grew up in Judaism, and I taught Judaism, and helped in the training of converts to Judaism, so I am relatively well versed in Judaism. Is Judaism all wrong? NO. It was because of Judaism, when I read the NT, I realized Jesus was the promised Messiah. So, of course I am not going to throw away all I learned and taught in Judaism. Judaism is based on the Tenakh, which is the words of God. It is not evil or all wrong as some like to think.

Was Israel alone when they received the law in the wilderness? No, there was also a mixed multitude representing the other nations. Israel was not only called to carry the law forward in time, but to teach it to the nations, which they failed miserably at. It took a splinter group who became Christians to perform that task.

As one of the more vocal opponents of messianics following rabbinic Judaism, I have to say I don't think it is evil or all wrong, any more than the church system. It is religion; a man-made set of rules, some good, some bad. Accepting the system means accepting the authority of those who made it, whether the pope or the rabbis. Religion is a corporate endeavor, where faith is personal.

 

[Qnts2]

It is not the covenant that is the problem, it is an attitude that I do not believe God ever to want His people to have towards other nations. Just like Jonah to Nineveh [gentile town] to repent reveals God's call for His people to be teachers of Torah to the nations of the world. Not "Torah for us, one non Torah type thingy for everyone else". ... as in go back to Christiandom's "law done away with" or "go ahead substitute ..... for Torah instructions" as we don't care attitude what you do as long as you do not try to be obedient to our Holy One of Israel or even better "here take Noahide", we made it just for gentiles. These things did not come from Torah nor God and yet it has been presented on this forum like it is all good for gentiles.

After a careful study, even a meticulous study of the Torah, not just for the Jewish people, but also how it applies to Gentiles, conclusions were reached based on scripture.

So, it is not an attitude, but a conclusion based on careful study of scripture. All people were part of the Noachide covenant, so the Noachide covenant does indeed apply to all people. The Mosaic covenant was given to the Jewish people. It does separate the Jewish people from the surrounding nations. So, Gentiles today are obligated to the Noachide covenant. Everyone is under a covenant, but not all are under the same covenant. Those who believe on Yeshua, are under the New Covenant.

So, Jewish Rabbis, in order to help Gentiles, fulfill their duty by teaching the Noachide covenant to the Gentiles. That is a positive attitude toward the nations based the Tenakh and on their well studied belief.

Added, to actually explain my view of the Noachides. I do believe that the covenant God made with Noah applied to all of his descendents, which includes all of us. So, that is the covenant for all of us. One still applies today for everyone. The rainbow. I do believe the Mosaic covenant was given to the children of Israel. However, the modern Noachide movement has some problems, so I do not believe the modern Noachide movement is correct.

 

[Steve Petersen]

48 pages of very public acrimony.

Great idea.