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Hi Tish,
Nutshell point of contention: Non-observance is not a level of Torah observance.
Whenever the subject of Messianic Judaism come up, certain members who claim to be Torah observant by virtue of the fact that they claim the scroll icon, continue to teach non-observance - especially to those coming here to inquire about Messianic Judaism. From the perspective of Torah observance in Messianic Judaism, it has always and will continue to always be more than mainstream Christian doctrine concerning 'the Law'. It is more that just keeping the Ten Commandments with special dispensation for those that want to observe Sabbath on Sunday. And the Torah observant in this forum are tired of getting shouted down and having to argue the same points time and again.
I thought that this was settled. I thought that this is what the new SOP was supposed to address. Not judging someone for keeping Kosher different than another, I can understand. Teaching newbies that Torah observance is not a tenet of Messianic Judaism is an entirely different matter. And in doing so, those that claim the scroll icon but are not Torah observant (counter to the SOP) and post extensive links to 'authoritative sources' that also denounce Torah observance, these 'Messianics' are seeking agreement from those that claim Christian icons too.
This is not what we voted on. It is not what we agreed to. But it is what we got. These are the same issues that we had before the new SOP.
amen... worth repeating..While I agree with your factual observations, I would have to take exception to you ascription of motivation.
I started as a Christian, and a rather zealous one, at that. The closer I drew to Jews and Judaism, the more I perceived that their were fundamental assumptions in Christianity that worked contrary to that movement--ideas that needed to be unlearned.
It was R. Kendall Soulen's book, "The God of Israel and Christian Theology", that finally demonstrated to me that the whole of Christian theology is founded upon supercessionism.
My theological emphasis is not driven by anti-Church motives, but by pro-Israel feelings. The recognition that the Bible is only and entirely about the Israeli empire, rather than a non-Israel Gentile community we call "the Church", is key to developing a consistent Bible-based theology.
Ok soo i am correct if i am assuming that the level of torah observance is not being debated and that folks who have some level of Torah observance are encouraged to participate is all you all want here correct ?........ But if no observance exists then to refrain from teaching non observance and just remain quite on that topic of discussion is what is being asked here? Correct?
While I agree with your factual observations, I would have to take exception to you ascription of motivation.
I started as a Christian, and a rather zealous one, at that. The closer I drew to Jews and Judaism, the more I perceived that their were fundamental assumptions in Christianity that worked contrary to that movement--ideas that needed to be unlearned.
It was R. Kendall Soulen's book, "The God of Israel and Christian Theology", that finally demonstrated to me that the whole of Christian theology is founded upon supercessionism.
My theological emphasis is not driven by anti-Church motives, but by pro-Israel feelings. The recognition that the Bible is only and entirely about the Israeli empire, rather than a non-Israel Gentile community we call "the Church", is key to developing a consistent Bible-based theology.
WellPhil said it all in a nutshell, Tish. That's exactly what was and is happening. Some of these don't even fly a scroll!!!!
Ok soo i am correct if i am assuming that the level of torah observance is not being debated and that folks who have some level of Torah observance are encouraged to participate is all you all want here correct ?........ But if no observance exists then to refrain from teaching non observance and just remain quite on that topic of discussion is what is being asked here? Correct?
How about teaching the changes like Euchrist for Seder, Sunday for sabbath, etc.. is that anti-Torah?? not saying it is anti-Christian mind you.What observances are in question? Whatever the observances in question are then yes no one should not come hear and teach against it. On the other hand if one doesn't keep these observances in question then the person shouldn't be judged as anti-Torah especially if the believer exemplifies love of God and neighbor just because the person is a Christian.
Well
Scroll or no scroll just so you all know we go by the sop for all teaching but if there is no scroll and nothing Identifying them as MJ that is usually tagged with the congregational rule if that post is reported ... Gotta be MJ to teach in the MJ forum here
How about teaching the changes like Euchrist for Seder, Sunday for sabbath, etc.. is that anti-Torah?? not saying it is anti-Christian mind you.
ok so it's true that only anti Torah Christian teaching is being called out here and maybe general Christian teaching off topic to the forum that disrupts the peace and harmony here? ( trying to place this with in the congregational rules we have)Second point of contention: Contending for Torah observance in a Torah observant forum is not attacking Christianity - Nor does the accusation sound like something that a Torah observant Messianic would say either.
No ... asking... is these kind of things .. anti-Torah? Because until we are clear that our defending against these kind of postings, in this section of the forum, then what is anti-Torah?My post was CLEAR, no one should come here and teach against the observances. See me thinks by default you're throwing in something that is against Christians by your comment.
That's right. But everytime one of us says something like that, we get bomblasted with reasons that we are wrong and wronging everyone else.
It becomes very disheartening. We'd like to fellowship here and be of help to those who are truly interested in learning about Messianic Judaism but we can't give any answers that don't get drowned in pages and pages of traditional Christianity churchese that is not Messianic Judaism.
Easy G (G²);62090349 said:I think another issue that is to be considered is what Contra noted well earlier - and that's having a basis that's consistent to judge by for support. It does no sensible good talking on anything regarding Messianic Judaism/Torah observance when that which used to be a standard with the founders of Modern Messianic Judaism are not seen as the ones that are mirrored here. If the name is to be maintained, it needs to be walked out according to what's actually happening in the movement. In example, having a majority of people who are Sacred Namers/One Law (i.e. Gentiles must live as Jews to be considered observing the Torah ) is something that the large marjority of Messianic Jews have all stood against and noted via scripture/Biblical history that it is not how Jewish believers see Gentiles.
If a forum claims it is about Torah Observance in the name of Mesianic Judaism, it needs to stay in step with the movement that began it - and as those in Sacred Namers/One Law groups have been spoken against, it is honorable to walk in line with that. Others who disagree have freedom to do so - but it doesn't mean that there should be freedom to demand that all others adhere to that in order to fit their own views of observance. Again, that would not be consistent with Messianic Jewish practice/lifestyle. If/when it occurs and it's demanded that others feel like they're left out, it should be realized that the reasons why are because they have long stepped out of synch with what actually happens in the Messianic Jewish world - and others end up living out a Messianic Judaism other than that which is actually practiced/noted by real Messianic Jews. It's no different than politics where you don't go with a majority rule simply because a majority is present. You go by the laws/standards of the land you live in.
If there is not a central standard or organization - namely those leading the movement thus far - by which to go by, there's logically no point in having conversation on who is or isn't observant. It'd ultimately come down to an issue of favoritism where others were allowed because they were the most vocal in saying "They're not Observant!!" while others were judged based on their level of observance differing from those of a few.
No ... asking... is these kind of things .. anti-Torah? Because until we are clear that our defending against these kind of postings, in this section of the forum, then what is anti-Torah?
Hopefully this is not the deefinitions, nor those who can declare what defines... as they are anti-one law.... and then we have not grown nor can we with that for a foundation.If a forum claims it is about Torah Observance in the name of Mesianic Judaism, it needs to stay in step with the movement that began it - and as those in Sacred Namers/One Law groups have been spoken against, it is honorable to walk in line with that. Others who disagree have freedom to do so - but it doesn't mean that there should be freedom to demand that all others adhere to that in order to fit their own views of observance. Again, that would not be consistent with Messianic Jewish practice/lifestyle. If/when it occurs and it's demanded that others feel like they're left out, it should be realized that the reasons why are because they have long stepped out of synch with what actually happens in the Messianic Jewish world - and others end up living out a Messianic Judaism other than that which is actually practiced/noted by real Messianic Jews. It's no different than politics where you don't go with a majority rule simply because a majority is present. You go by the laws/standards of the land you live in.
Ok so it sounds like we are still talking about observance though ....and what level is acceptable to teach torah at.....
And so far I see no one objects to folks who have "some" level of Torah observance offering their .02$ and yet those who have no observance are being ask to refrain from those discussions
Thank you Steve that is more helpful than folks know ...really.... and I know many are uncomfortable reporting folks but its better than all the quarreling that we find ourselves in sometimesI can't find the rules anymore. Someone got a link? I will put them on my desktop, post them when necessary, then report offenders. We should all do this consistently.
How about replacement theology? How deep can it go before it becomes anti-Torah? I know that "Israel".. "Jew" is well defended... but it is some others that real Jews defend because of traditionals defensive mechanism that RCC have taken advantage of... say Sunday vs Sabbath... which is Torah? Euchrist vs Passover Seder?? etc. You know, the ol' switcherooo... this for you, this for the Jew only preaching.As I said no one should come here and teach against and condemn observances. If a believer comes here to discuss and doesn't teach against and condemn then what's the problem if they are Christian?
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