Messianic Judaism

[ContraMundum]

OK I will. I realize that was a broad generalized statement (question). I'm speaking of your normative non Messianic Jew for the most part.

OK. I get ya.

 

[yedida]

Yedida....have you considered that the obvious might in fact be true? That most MJ statements of faith sound Christian because they ARE Christian?

This is where I find this whole discussion absurd. A few here place far too much authority on their own opinions regarding what constitutes MJism.

If I want to asses MJism, I will go to the leadership- and the leadership have made Statements of Faith that adherents agree with. The vast majority of those SoF are unashamedly Christian, and furthermore Protestant in their core beliefs.

Sure, there are the fringe groups. These groups have few adherents and yet they still hold the core beliefs of Protestantism.

There are the few on this forum who essentially believe as those groups, but claim that they are "nothing like" Christians. This is just plain old baloney. There is something deeply disturbing to me to think that someone would be so desperate as to bury themselves into an identity that lives in denial of its own beliefs. (It is disturbing to me for people to bury themselves in religious identity anyway)



Not in my experience. I have been, spoken at, and helped guide more than one MJ group in the past. To me, they are basically Evangelical Christians with some Jewish heritage and symbols.

I realize of course there is a deep need on this forum by some to be "different", but that says more about them than MJism.



I think that a quick look at any mainstream MJ statement of Faith would pretty much bury the notion that there are few things in common between MJ groups and other Christian groups.

Let's stop waxing lyrical here and just stick with the facts: MJ statements of faith are essentially Christian.



Gentiles have ALWAYS BEEN WELCOME because the NT says so, there is no time when Gentiles were not allowed in any MJ congregation, ever. Not to mention that many MJ congregations were started with the help of, or by, Gentile Christians.

The gentiles may have been welcome but they were not treated as equal. Perhaps it emanated from within the gentiles themselves but many places "appeared" to think of the gentile as second class citizens. I only recently quit sensing that where I'm at.

 

[ContraMundum]

The gentiles may have been welcome but they were not treated as equal.

Who told you that?

Perhaps it emanated from within the gentiles themselves but many places "appeared" to think of the gentile as second class citizens. I only recently quit sensing that where I'm at.

OK...I can understand the clique effect in churches. I've seen it myself, though not between Jew and Gentile. Usually between other sub sets of the congregation.

 

[GuardianShua]

Once again, yes, it's there in Torah. It's about those who are unambiguously set up as leaders by God.
Self-proclaimed ministers (even those who have studied at Seminary) can only be accepted as put in place by God. It would be helpful if voices roared from heaven or mountains, or burning bushes, or if doves descended up them but that doesn't happen nowadays - we have only someone's statement and maybe a few PhDs or other credentials and those do not equate to someone being "God appointed, or annointed."

Those who are actually called by God have most aways been people that were not held in high regard.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Those who are actually called by God have most aways been people that were not held in high regard.

While that may be true, ridicule is not an indication of having been called. Mormons, who surely suffer a lot of ridicule, are no more correct or called because of the insults. The same is true for certain loons that frequent certain forums that we're all aware of.

 

[yedida]

Who told you that?



OK...I can understand the clique effect in churches. I've seen it myself, though not between Jew and Gentile. Usually between other sub sets of the congregation.

I've sensed it in a few that were more Jew than Gentile. And I'm willing to ascertain that it could be coming from the gentile and not being the Jew at the fault. But unfortunately, sometimes it is there.

 

[Heber]

Those who are actually called by God have most aways been people that were not held in high regard.

We know that only too well.

 

[yedida]

In other words, you believe you cannot follow that commandment in the current day and age.

No, not if I know for sure that someone is indeed called, appointed, and anointed by God.
There are numerous TVangelists on our daily lineups and every single one of their listeners believe that what they teach is "the Word" and none of these listeners see any flaws in these mens' teachings. Are they all called, appointed, anointed of God? If you think that they are, then our discussion is over, in more ways than one. If you think they are not, then I have to ask what makes you so sure your understanding of scripture is correct and theirs is wrong so that they are not called of God? And all the tens of thousands that follow these tvangelists, what makes their interpretations of scripture wrong and yours right so that they are following false teachers.

If all a teacher has to do is go to seminary, get a few PhDs and some credentials then the bar is set too low - most anyone can do that. And yes, many would choose that paycheck over mining in a mountain or flipping hamburgers, sorry to say.

Aah, and I forgot to say, that what is heard from one tvangelist to another is the very same stuff heard in churches throughout the States. The little pastors are not as colorful and loud but their teachings almost perfectly mirror those of the tvangelists, that why I used that group of teachers.

 

[Heber]

Once again, yes, it's there in Torah. It's about those who are unambiguously set up as leaders by God.
Self-proclaimed ministers (even those who have studied at Seminary) can only be accepted as put in place by God. It would be helpful if voices roared from heaven or mountains, or burning bushes, or if doves descended up them but that doesn't happen nowadays - we have only someone's statement and maybe a few PhDs or other credentials and those do not equate to someone being "God appointed, or annointed."

My comments were not directed at you, Yedida, which I hope you realise. But even if I sent in my certificates - academic and ordination - I do not think for a moment that attitudes would change towards those who are leaders. That much was evident in the debate about the poll, which was a sham in my opinion.

Maybe it is because we have letters both before and after our names that people choose to be so downright rude - I don't know, best ask them, I guess.

 

[cupid dave]

It doesn't even appear that the mainstream Christians observe the Noahide Laws. At least not the laws as I've seen them as set forth in B'nai Noach website.

I presume you mean:
Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations?

These Seven Universal Laws pertain to:
[bless and do not curse]
1) Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
2) Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
3) Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
4) Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
5) Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
6) Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
7) Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.

 

[yedida]

My comments were not directed at you, Yedida, which I hope you realise. But even if I sent in my certificates - academic and ordination - I do not think for a moment that attitudes would change towards those who are leaders. That much was evident in the debate about the poll, which was a sham in my opinion.

Maybe it is because we have letters both before and after our names that people choose to be so downright rude - I don't know, best ask them, I guess.

Nor mine specifically toward you and Contra. Even though we buck horns often, I do learn from both of you.
But the question stands. Anyone can go out and start preaching the scriptures and claim they have been called of God to do this - does the fact that they say they were called make them called? How does one know which are God-appointed over those who just want to do it?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I feel it's a valid question.

 

[yedida]

I presume you mean:
Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations?

These Seven Universal Laws pertain to:
[bless and do not curse]
1) Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
2) Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
3) Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
4) Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
5) Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
6) Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
7) Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.

I'd say that #s 2, 4, and 5, indeed, get overlooked or ignored often by mainstream. furthermore, are you aware that within those 7 individual laws there are groupings of lesser laws that pertain to each one specifically? And these get ignored as well.

 

[GuardianShua]

None of Christ disciples had any credentials.

 

[cupid dave]

It doesn't even appear that the mainstream Christians observe the Noahide Laws. At least not the laws as I've seen them as set forth in B'nai Noach website.

Hmmm...
Most of these laws seem to be observed:
These Seven Universal Laws pertain to:
[bless and do not curse]
1) Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
2) Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
3) Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
4) Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
5) Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
6) Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
7) Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.




I presume you mean this Law:
Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.








Abortions by Religious Affiliation:

Protestants: 37.4%
Catholics: 31.3%
Jews: 1.3 %
Non-religious/secular: 30.0 %

 

[yedida]

Hmmm...
Most of these laws seem to be observed:
These Seven Universal Laws pertain to:
[bless and do not curse]
1) Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
2) Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
3) Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
4) Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
5) Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
6) Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
7) Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.




I presume you mean this Law:
Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.








Abortions by Religious Affiliation:

Protestants: 37.4%
Catholics: 31.3%
Jews: 1.3 %
Non-religious/secular: 30.0 %

I named off the ones I was referring to as being ignored. #s 2, 4, 5. And a good deal of the inner laws within each grouping.

 

[pat34lee]

That's what I'm getting at. Here in the States it's so easy to be hoodwinked. I won't just blindly accept someone telling me that they are appointed, called, anointed to teach the gospel. There has to be something to back it up - what is it, since we no longer have the signs we find in the Bible?

We have the scriptures. If they are called, they will not only teach the scripture, they will live them (as well as any of us are able). See 1 John 4.

 

[yedida]

We have the scriptures. If they are called, they will not only teach the scripture, they will live them (as well as any of us are able). See 1 John 4.

Do you believe that Binny Hinn is God-called? He appears to be living what mainstream teaches. Kenneth Copeland? Kenneth Hagen? Pat Robertson? Joel Osteen? Myers? Prince? According to what information is available, these all appear to live as mainstream teaches. Are these God-appointed? Was Oral Roberts? In the beginning Joseph Smith appeared to be living what mainstream teaches. Are these all God-called, appointed, anointed? What are your views?

 

[Lulav]

Do you believe that Binny Hinn is God-called? He appears to be living what mainstream teaches. Kenneth Copeland? Kenneth Hagen? Pat Robertson? Joel Osteen? Myers? Prince? According to what information is available, these all appear to live as mainstream teaches. Are these God-appointed? Was Oral Roberts? In the beginning Joseph Smith appeared to be living what mainstream teaches. Are these all God-called, appointed, anointed? What are your views?

I could play the advocate and say yes, they are appointed, but not in the way most people think. I think our Father loves us, but wants our love for him to be real. And to 'prove' that (if you love me keep my commandments) He allow us to be tested by men such as those.

It doesn't take much in this day and age with all the instant info to place these and others side by side and see that they conflict with themselves, let alone with G-ds Torah.

Aaah, who could ignore you for long? You're our Lulav.

Yes, but come tomorrow, don't shake me too hard!

 

[yedida]

I could play the advocate and say yes, they are appointed, but not in the way most people think. I think our Father loves us, but wants our love for him to be real. And to 'prove' that (if you love me keep my commandments) He allow us to be tested by men such as those.

It doesn't take much in this day and age with all the instant info to place these and others side by side and see that they conflict with themselves, let alone with G-ds Torah.



Yes, but come tomorrow, don't shake me too hard!

What? Would you shake, rattle and roll?

I knew what you would answer, but I wanted to see what the others had to say on the subject. From what they're saying, all these teachers who say they are called, are indeed called. There has to be some criteria for discerning if they are not called.
Someone said we could tell by the teacher's lifestyle, but is that enough? Is that a true or the only measuring rod?

 

[anisavta]

Are they G~d called or self called? We are called to test the spirits. We will know them by their fruit. Let the buyer beware.