Messianic Judaism

[ContraMundum]

You got lost in the thread. That response was to a post about people who claim that they follow the Noahide laws. Nothing whatsoever to do with teachers/leaders of any sort. And I stated that "some" do those things, big difference from "all".

They do follow the Noachide Laws (and much more- the Laws of the Sermon on the Mount, which summarize the 10) but they sin. They just break them, but when they do, they would know that they are sinning.

 

[yedida]

And those in the Messianic movement do not? They are perfect? One of the biggest rogues I have known was a messianic rabbi! If we are honest, we might want to look at people like Rahab - used by G_d, Zac who stole money from the people. The Bible is littered with people of doubtful character that G_d called into his service, so let's not pretend that he only chooses the spotless - there aren't any, as the Bible testifies!

Let me put myself in category #2 for a minute. Sheesh! You guys are seeing only what you want to see. You claim we Messianics are the same as Christians, I don't disagree (we're just not mainstream/traditional) so Messianics fall into that "some Christians" category.

And as I pointed out to Contra, that post was in response to another about Christians following the Noahide Laws. It had nothing to do with teachers/leaders whatsoever. And I stated "some" not all. Good grief!!

 

[yedida]

Credentials are not the be-all-and-end-all of the ministry. Secondly, let's not forget that the Bible describes men called to the ministry who fall away or teach poorly- no one is perfect.

I can accept that and understand it. So we're moving forward here.

 

[ContraMundum]

It's getting hectic, eh yedida?

 

[Heber]

Let me put myself in category #2 for a minute. Sheesh! You guys are seeing only what you want to see. You claim we Messianics are the same as Christians, I don't disagree (we're just not mainstream/traditional) so Messianics fall into that "some Christians" category.

And as I pointed out to Contra, that post was in response to another about Christians following the Noahide Laws. It had nothing to do with teachers/leaders whatsoever. And I stated "some" not all. Good grief!!

Posts cross - sorry about that. I often do not see posts appear until some time after they were written, especially if there is a lot of back and forth in posts.

 

[yedida]

It's getting hectic, eh yedida?

I'm just trying to understand you guy's version of God-called, appointed as opposed to what's out there. And how we figure it all out.
We moved forward a step or two but still going round and round. Doesn't seem much sense in continuing it, it's going nowhere.
I'm still nowhere close to having an answer.
But I'll let it drop and stay where I'm at. I'll stick with the few that got the thundering voices, burning bushes and doves. The rest I'll remain wary of

 

[yedida]

Posts cross - sorry about that. I often do not see posts appear until some time after they were written, especially if there is a lot of back and forth in posts.

No problem.
Today (or rather yesterday, Tues.) was difficult for me too. I wasn't getting CF email notifications of new posts. It was really hard to keep up. (And my internet kept crashing on me too & when it worked it was slower than dial up! Hearing any violins yet? ) To be honest, I can't even really remember why that poster even brought up the Noahide Laws, what point he was trying to make. I just remember it had nothing to do with leadership.

 

[Heber]

Yedida - could you answer my question, please. I asked that, as leaders know a call from G_d, how can one 'prove' that. How can you 'prove' that G_d has spoken (continues to speak) to you at some point?

 

[yedida]

Yedida - could you answer my question, please. I asked that, as leaders know a call from G_d, how can one 'prove' that. How can you 'prove' that G_d has spoken (continues to speak) to you at some point?

Sweet friend of mine, that's what I've been trying to find out! You and Contra keep saying to not tear down the teachings of a God-appointed leader, the Bible says to test the prophets/teachers - so I'm asking how we do both?
It seems when someone questions a leader, you and/or Contra tell us not to do that against a God-appointed leader. So, all this time, I've been trying to figure out how we know who's God-called without testing. And I'm trying to find out what measure we must use to test.
Have you read all of my posts from this evening? I laid out several scenarios in them, of teachers who appear to be God-called, whose teachings are not really unscriptural, they're just not scriptural as I've come to understand them. So by what do we measure? Their lifestyles appear to be Chrisitan, and they have from hundreds to tens of thousands of followers. What measure do we use? How do we test without questioning?

 

[Heber]

Sweet friend of mine, that's what I've been trying to find out! You and Contra keep saying to not tear down the teachings of a God-appointed leader, the Bible says to test the prophets/teachers - so I'm asking how we do both?
It seems when someone questions a leader, you and/or Contra tell us not to do that against a God-appointed leader. So, all this time, I've been trying to figure out how we know who's God-called without testing. And I'm trying to find out what measure we must use to test.
Have you read all of my posts from this evening? I laid out several scenarios in them, of teachers who appear to be God-called, whose teachings are not really unscriptural, they're just not scriptural as I've come to understand them. So by what do we measure? Their lifestyles appear to be Chrisitan, and they have from hundreds to tens of thousands of followers. What measure do we use? How do we test without questioning?

Our prime proof is the call of G_d on us to do the work. Every person whom G_d has called has heard that call which we would love to share with everyone else. The problem we have is how do we prove that G_d ever called us? So I've turned the question around and asked how do you 'prove' that G_d has spoken to you about something. If we can find out how you know G_d has spoken to you, with certainty, we can use that measure ourselves.

I accept without reservation that G_d has spoken to you and called you to the Messianic movement because it is evident in who you are, which is drawn from my knowledge of you since you came on here. I have never met CM or Yonah, but I know in my heart that CM is called to minister and Yonah is also called to the work he does among us. Now, I don't ask you how sincere you are, whether you've had 10 husbands, or whether you wear bright pink sock and trainers, whether you are moral or amoral etc etc. I trust that call because I know you, albeit from a few miles away. CM, Yonah and I are the same, we recognise each others call. You know us and therefore you should be able to trust that we are called of G_d to the work we do - what is the problem here? We, all three, do not always agree with each other, but we respect the other person as having been called to the work they are doing. You and I know others on here who are also called in different ways (and some that probably are not!). It is about G_d speaking in our hearts and that heart hearing what G_d is saying and trusting him. You may go on in life and become a right rogue, but G_d is using you right here, right now. Why can you not trust him to do the same with others whom you know?

 

[yedida]

Our prime proof is the call of G_d on us to do the work. Every person whom G_d has called has heard that call which we would love to share with everyone else. The problem we have is how do we prove that G_d ever called us? So I've turned the question around and asked how do you 'prove' that G_d has spoken to you about something. If we can find out how you know G_d has spoken to you, with certainty, we can use that measure ourselves.

I accept without reservation that G_d has spoken to you and called you to the Messianic movement because it is evident in who you are, which is drawn from my knowledge of you since you came on here. I have never met CM or Yonah, I know in my heart that CM is called to minister and Yonah is also called to the work he does among us. Now, I don't ask you how sincere you are, whether you've had 10 husbands, or whether you wear bright pink sock and trainers, whether you are moral or amoral etc etc. I trust that call because I know you, albeit from a few miles away. CM Yonah and I are the same. You know us and therefore you should be able to trust that we are called of G_d to the work we do - what is the problem here? You and I know others on here who are also called in different ways (and some that probably are not!). It is about G_d speaking in our hearts and that heart hearing what G_d is saying and trusting him. You may go on in life and become a right rogue, but G_d is using you right here, right now. Why can you not trust him to do the same with others whom you know?

You've got me there. And I'll say that I have not questioned you (except earlier today when it sounded like you weren't pastoring your church now - not that you'd done something wrong or got fired or anything, it just sounded like you were no longer pastoring, I didn't understand your church's system). I know you're doing what you are because it's in you to do it. I don't know CM as well, but I'm beginning to know him better, especially these last few weeks.
And you're right about the others here. We do "know" each other, pretty well I think for this being a forum. We're actually closer than some families who house together.
But we don't have that kind of knowledge where others are concerned. I was never asking where you and Contra are, I was just asking you two to tell me how we can test if we can't question.
As far as how I know something about someone that I'm familiar with to a degree, it's a spirit of calmness, an indescribable, undefinable "knowing", a peace that is all-filling. When I am familiar with a person, like here or in person, then I believe that I know their heart, their spirit - and their spirit kind of melds with my own and I hear the Spirit of God in them. And how I know that this is the Spirit of God, I'd be loathed to have to explain it, I can't, I just "know."
Okay, I think I understand now. It's the way I've always relied on, at least for the last 5-6 years.
Thanks. I'm slow, but I do finally "get" things eventually.

 

[Heber]

I have great respect for education and training.

I know you have, as have CM and I. I don't pretend to be a linguist but I recognise that gift and ministry here, in you and CM, so I am more than happy to leave that to you folk who have the education in that area. I am more a theologian than one who copes well with languages as you two do.

 

[cupid dave]

I'm just trying to understand you guy's version of God-called, appointed as opposed to what's out there. And how we figure it all out.
We moved forward a step or two but still going round and round. Doesn't seem much sense in continuing it, it's going nowhere.
I'm still nowhere close to having an answer.
But I'll let it drop and stay where I'm at. I'll stick with the few that got the thundering voices, burning bushes and doves. The rest I'll remain wary of

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dream

 

[yedida]

My question was: Which of the seven Noachide Laws are Christians breaking?

The answer was 2, 4, 5.
My next question was "Are they REALLY christians?"

Are they NOT the Gentiles building Whoredoms, whom Moses opposed?

And I and others answered your questions. Then you proceeded with your insulting opinions. You insulted single mothers, the chlldren of single moms, females in general, Christians and the pulpit - all that in just a few short sentences.
You are not allowed to post in debate-style.
Please stop.

 

[visionary]

I didn't get 'hired' as you put it - I am self employed. I was asked by the congregation to be their leader - which was the decision they had to make, and then I had to decide whether I felt I could be, or not. They have no say in what I believe or preach because I am not employed by them - they cannot tell me what to do, or not to do. They are free to ask me not to continue as their leader if they consider that I am preaching heresy or leading an immoral life etc. They contribute, whether I am there or not, to a central charitable fund to pay for ministry from which I receive a stipend (not a pay cheque, which is an important distinction, as to receive a pay check implies employment and control). If the congregation ask me to leave, another congregation will be approached to see if they want me to be a leader with them - it was the problem of finding more work that I was involved in previously. As I am self employed it is up to me, with help from the charitable fund, to find a different congregation who are willing to take me on. So I am not a paid employee - I have complete autonomy from the local congregation and from the central fund. Should I not find a congregation the money would dry up very quickly, because I have no rights to demand notice or to appeal against dismissal etc etc. - the fund would simply cease to send me any stipend.

So, back to Vis' comments - my views do not affect a pay check because I am self employed, beholden to no one as to what I should, or should not, believe and it makes no difference to my career etc.

You are still providing what you believe will keep the stipend coming from this congregation or anther one watching. If you do not conform to the preconceived dictates, your stipend is gone plus no referrals.

 

[visionary]

Credentials are not the be-all-and-end-all of the ministry. Secondly, let's not forget that the Bible describes men called to the ministry who fall away or teach poorly- no one is perfect.

amen

 

[visionary]

I have great respect for education and training.

I do too, because if it wasn't for the training and education I wouldn't be where I am at today. But I do not stop there or let it define me and what I know or how I am to understand it. My field is larger and open to more advances as the Lord instructs... although I do find the path getting narrower...

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On

​

This thread has been cleaned and re-opened.
Please remember that if you are not Messaisnic you may not debate here.
Thansk
Mod Hat Off​

 

[yonah_mishael]

I have never met CM or Yonah, but I know in my heart that CM is called to minister and Yonah is also called to the work he does among us.... CM, Yonah and I are the same, we recognise each others call.

Heber,

I just realized that you wrote this post. Sorry I missed it before (and I hope you're at least still checking in here to read from time to time - I'm disappointed that you've left the forum).

I don't think anyone's ever called my posts any type of calling before. I appreciate it. Hadn't thought of it that way. I guess my calling is to attract people to the languages that the Bible uses. It's where my passion is, anyway.

The forum's taking a serious hit in your withdrawing.

YM

 

[ContraMundum]

Heber,

I just realized that you wrote this post. Sorry I missed it before (and I hope you're at least still checking in here to read from time to time - I'm disappointed that you've left the forum).

I don't think anyone's ever called my posts any type of calling before. I appreciate it. Hadn't thought of it that way. I guess my calling is to attract people to the languages that the Bible uses. It's where my passion is, anyway.

The forum's taking a serious hit in your withdrawing.

YM

I think Heber was right too.