Messianic Judaism

[Heber]

Not in all cases.. God leads His people even out of Egypt.. even if that is where they were born and raised.

Can you write in non-enigmatic terms - that way we can be clear what you are actually saying? It will save a number of posts as we try and figure it out.

 

[cupid dave]

Christians and messianics are no more the same faith than Orthodox, Karaite, and Reform Jews and Sadducees are all the same. Just among Christians themselves, there are vast differences in how they view both the Father and the Messiah, and in how much of the bible they believe is real and what some believe is just morality stories and fables.

This is true.

Noone have defined what they mean by G-d even though Christ said, "I am The Truth," which is an ideal or concept that defines his Father as Reality, it image in the mind of men.

 

[yedida]

I was just on a Messianic website (Yedida's congregation) and it, like others I have read, look very similar to Christianity to me. The statement of faith and "what we believe" stuff is almost identical to something you'd find on a Protestant website. So to me they seem the same.

Yes, most MJ statements of faith do sound just like Christianity. I don't know if it's to not offend the "Christian" who may be looking them over or what their reasoning is. But MJ and mainstream/traditional Chrisitanity are as different as day is from night. But like day and night have one thing in common (they share the same 24 hour period and are found on one clock), MJ has a few things in common with Christianity, they share Yeshua, the Father, the Spirit, but that's about it. MJ teaching is far different from mainstream.
Just thought to add this, that Beth Hallel is more Messianic Jews than Gentiles and has been around for over 30 years, much longer than the amount of time that Gentiles have been welcome into the movement.

 

[yedida]

That Jews don't want to be associated with the word Christianity or Christian?

That could be a large part of it, but I think mostly the Jewish believers want to have a place where they can believe in Yeshua and hold onto their own Jewishness.
The MJ Gentiles could be disenchanted with the way mainstream has and is headed, it could be that God has opened up their eyes to the fact that Torah is alive and well and now want to be among others who believe the same thing and want to be where they can learn more.
For me, I was lead into it on my own (just the Bible and the Spirit at my side teaching me). For a year I tried to fit myself into a "church" setting, it didn't work.

 

[xDenax]

Yes, most MJ statements of faith do sound just like Christianity. I don't know if it's to not offend the "Christian" who may be looking them over or what their reasoning is. But MJ and mainstream/traditional Chrisitanity are as different as day is from night.

Yedida, after looking over your congregations website and conversing with MJ's for a couple years I honestly have no idea how you see Christianity and MJ as different as day and night.

If they are that different why is there an MJ forum even here? Shouldn't you just be required to post in the World Religion section? If it isn't Christianity you shouldn't have your own forum.

 

[cupid dave]

That could be a large part of it, but I think mostly the Jewish believers want to have a place where they can believe in Yeshua and hold onto their own Jewishness.
The MJ Gentiles could be disenchanted with the way mainstream has and is headed, it could be that God has opened up their eyes to the fact that Torah is alive and well and now want to be among others who believe the same thing and want to be where they can learn more.
For me, I was lead into it on my own (just the Bible and the Spirit at my side teaching me). For a year I tried to fit myself into a "church" setting, it didn't work.

We ought expect the two to be different because the Gentile Christians only need iobserve the Noachide Laws but for the Hebrew Christian not a tittle wilol be removed.

 

[yedida]

We ought expect the two to be different because the Gentile Christians only need iobserve the Noachide Laws but for the Hebrew Christian not a tittle wilol be removed.

It doesn't even appear that the mainstream Christians observe the Noahide Laws. At least not the laws as I've seen them as set forth in B'nai Noach website.

 

[anisavta]

Yedida, after looking over your congregations website and conversing with MJ's for a couple years I honestly have no idea how you see Christianity and MJ as different as day and night.

If they are that different why is there an MJ forum even here? Shouldn't you just be required to post in the World Religion section? If it isn't Christianity you shouldn't have your own forum.

I guess it's the difference of watching and talking with a family as opposed to living with that family.

 

[yedida]

Yedida, after looking over your congregations website and conversing with MJ's for a couple years I honestly have no idea how you see Christianity and MJ as different as day and night.

If they are that different why is there an MJ forum even here? Shouldn't you just be required to post in the World Religion section? If it isn't Christianity you shouldn't have your own forum.

I know. I hate it that the SoF's of MJ congregations sound so much like mainstream that most wouldn't see a difference, and there really is. I just don't understand it. The only thing I can think of is their desire to not be offensive. Then of course, there's always the money angle. Sadly, people will be people, whether they're Orthodox or Reform Jewish, Baptist or Episcopalian, RCC or Greek Orthodox Chrisitans or MJ - money talks, it pays the overhead and is necessary.
or
Perhaps if the SoF was worded differently, people would not understand that we indeed worship the God and Jesus that they are so used to. So if their effort to not make people think that they have accidently stepped across the line into something dark and dangerous, they've made the line of differentiation far too thin.

 

[yedida]

I guess it's the difference of watching and talking with a family as opposed to living with that family.

How come you always manage to say what I'm thinking and can't get across?

 

[Heber]

Yes, most MJ statements of faith do sound just like Christianity. I don't know if it's to not offend the "Christian" who may be looking them over or what their reasoning is. But MJ and mainstream/traditional Chrisitanity are as different as day is from night. But like day and night have one thing in common (they share the same 24 hour period and are found on one clock), MJ has a few things in common with Christianity, they share Yeshua, the Father, the Spirit, but that's about it. MJ teaching is far different from mainstream.
Just thought to add this, that Beth Hallel is more Messianic Jews than Gentiles and has been around for over 30 years, much longer than the amount of time that Gentiles have been welcome into the movement.

In a perfect world that would certainly be true. In this world the Statement of Faith is, more often than not, very similar to that of an evangelical Church (usually American), with maybe a few extra lines included about the Messianic side. It is the teaching and worship that are particularly different, as well as the administration of the fellowship. However, give these congregations another 10 to 15 years and they will be as top heavy with administration as is the Church, today. In the same way, the house-church movement - set up as getting away from buildings and lots of admin., - are now near to being denominational / institutional in many cases, complete with an overall leader!

 

[yedida]

Just a quick derail: Is anyone else not receiving email notifications? If anyone has any ideas what might be wrong here, could you pm or visitor notifiy me of help ideas?

Thanks!

Back to the OP (or at least latest discussion!).

 

[Desert Rose]

yedida, I had no idea one can set up email not-s thanks for mentioning it.
***
Heber, all good points. I think its somewhat myopic to say MJ and C are different as day/night by comparing lame xtians with good quality messianics.
There are Christians that i , being one, consider to be different from me as day from night. Like the Pope and child molester unablers/coveruppers Cardinals.Or Southern Baptists, that managed to offer half baked apology for racism and slavery ony in 1995 ! I just cant say we are the same.

But faith-wise we all are, thats the fact. The Pope is light years closer to a Messianic Jew then any Jew of any stripe of judaism.

 

[Huram Abi]

I don't think that was what Vis was saying at all and find it offensive to her that she is being accused of this.

What I think she is saying and she is capable of correcting me if I am wrong, is NOT that what Yeshua did was pagan, not at all.

But the ritual that was handed down combined the Passover Seder with known gentile rites in order to make it more palatable for them. It is a well documented fact that that is what the early church did, so to be so incensed about it is ridicules.

It was a way to be 'in communion' with the deity. This can be seen in many documents on the history of religions. Most notably the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Part 9 speaks extensively of the "eating of the god".

Thank you for this.

 

[anisavta]

How come you always manage to say what I'm thinking and can't get across?

 

[xDenax]

or
Perhaps if the SoF was worded differently, people would not understand that we indeed worship the God and Jesus that they are so used to. So if their effort to not make people think that they have accidently stepped across the line into something dark and dangerous, they've made the line of differentiation far too thin.

I'm am interested in how you would write the Statement of Faith.

 

[Heber]

: "But the ritual that was handed down combined the Passover Seder with known gentile rites in order to make it more palatable for them. It is a well documented fact that that is what the early church did, so to be so incensed about it is ridicules.

It was a way to be 'in communion' with the deity. This can be seen in many documents on the history of religions. Most notably the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Part 9 speaks extensively of the "eating of the god".

So let's see the actual links (author, book title and page number) to where this great volume of information is, and also where the Church acknowledges that it did this, please. May we also have the page number where Hastings says that this happened in the Church, all the way from India, and any footnote he may have added in this regard (as you have clearly read the whole article).

 

[yedida]

I'm am interested in how you would write the Statement of Faith.

I'm not sure how I would word it, and am grateful I've never been set to task. If my congregation asked me to do such, I would make a positive attempt but I'm sure it would take far more time than what I could put into your suggestion, for right now I'm stumped!

 

[ContraMundum]

That Jews don't want to be associated with the word Christianity or Christian?

Speak for yourself!

 

[ContraMundum]

Yes, most MJ statements of faith do sound just like Christianity. I don't know if it's to not offend the "Christian" who may be looking them over or what their reasoning is.

Yedida....have you considered that the obvious might in fact be true? That most MJ statements of faith sound Christian because they ARE Christian?

This is where I find this whole discussion absurd. A few here place far too much authority on their own opinions regarding what constitutes MJism.

If I want to asses MJism, I will go to the leadership- and the leadership have made Statements of Faith that adherents agree with. The vast majority of those SoF are unashamedly Christian, and furthermore Protestant in their core beliefs.

Sure, there are the fringe groups. These groups have few adherents and yet they still hold the core beliefs of Protestantism.

There are the few on this forum who essentially believe as those groups, but claim that they are "nothing like" Christians. This is just plain old baloney. There is something deeply disturbing to me to think that someone would be so desperate as to bury themselves into an identity that lives in denial of its own beliefs. (It is disturbing to me for people to bury themselves in religious identity anyway)

But MJ and mainstream/traditional Chrisitanity are as different as day is from night.

Not in my experience. I have been, spoken at, and helped guide more than one MJ group in the past. To me, they are basically Evangelical Christians with some Jewish heritage and symbols.

I realize of course there is a deep need on this forum by some to be "different", but that says more about them than MJism.

But like day and night have one thing in common (they share the same 24 hour period and are found on one clock), MJ has a few things in common with Christianity, they share Yeshua, the Father, the Spirit, but that's about it. MJ teaching is far different from mainstream.

I think that a quick look at any mainstream MJ statement of Faith would pretty much bury the notion that there are few things in common between MJ groups and other Christian groups.

Let's stop waxing lyrical here and just stick with the facts: MJ statements of faith are essentially Christian.

Just thought to add this, that Beth Hallel is more Messianic Jews than Gentiles and has been around for over 30 years, much longer than the amount of time that Gentiles have been welcome into the movement.

Gentiles have ALWAYS BEEN WELCOME because the NT says so, there is no time when Gentiles were not allowed in any MJ congregation, ever. Not to mention that many MJ congregations were started with the help of, or by, Gentile Christians.