Messianic Judaism

[xDenax]

Come visit... go to one then the other...

Sorry, I don't go to churches or messianic congregations.

 

[visionary]

Sorry, I don't go to churches or messianic congregations.

Then trust me when I say.. it may be worded similarly but in reality there is quite a lot of differences.

 

[ChavaK]

Christians and messianics are no more the same faith than Orthodox, Karaite, and Reform Jews and Sadducees are all the same. Just among Christians themselves, there are vast differences in how they view both the Father and the Messiah, and in how much of the bible they believe is real and what some believe is just morality stories and fables.

My definition of a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as their messiah and personal savior. There is no salvation without belief in him.
AFAIK, that is what Messianics and Christians believe. Which is why I
think they are one and the same....different "flavors" of Christianity perhaps,
but the same.

 

[visionary]

My definition of a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as their messiah and personal savior. There is no salvation without belief in him.
AFAIK, that is what Messianics and Christians believe. Which is why I
think they are one and the same....different "flavors" of Christianity perhaps,
but the same.

Messianics believe Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. Quite a few Christians believe Jesus created a new religion.

 

[ContraMundum]

I don't think that was what Vis was saying at all and find it offensive to her that she is being accused of this.

What I think she is saying and she is capable of correcting me if I am wrong, is NOT that what Yeshua did was pagan, not at all.

But the ritual that was handed down combined the Passover Seder with known gentile rites in order to make it more palatable for them. It is a well documented fact that that is what the early church did, so to be so incensed about it is ridicules.

It was a way to be 'in communion' with the deity. This can be seen in many documents on the history of religions. Most notably the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Part 9 speaks extensively of the 'Eating of the god'.

It's a mis-understanding of the Lord's Table that would make someone think that they are eating their God like some kind of cannibal. They are eating their passover lamb. Just as you had to consume the lamb to get out of Egypt. The symbolism is Judaic, not Pagan. What kind of idiot makes this pagan copycat junk up when it is straight out of scripture?

 

[ContraMundum]

My definition of a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus as their messiah and personal savior. There is no salvation without belief in him.
AFAIK, that is what Messianics and Christians believe. Which is why I
think they are one and the same....different "flavors" of Christianity perhaps,
but the same.

Exactly. The facts are there.

 

[ContraMundum]

I don't know how far down the page was your difference between Medieval Catholic idea of the Mass and the Christian eucharist was but I didn't make it. all I saw was talking about the difference between the Mass and the eucharist/communion.
Do you not still believe in the transubstantiation happening? Did the pope change it? What is the difference between the two in your own words (which are much easier to understand btw).

I don't believe in transubstantiation. I don't even think many Catholics do anymore. It's a doctrine that was an attempt to defend the words of Jesus "this is my body" from interpretations that said "this isn't my body". I believe in pious silence. I don't deny, confirm or try to understand what goes on in any holy rite- I just protect the words of Jesus.

Transubstantiation is the idea that the bread no longer exists except in its physical form, and its essence or substance has changed into the Body of the Lord (same goes for the wine and the Blood). The bread and wine do not change into physical body and blood, but change in a miraculous spiritual manner.

I believe in the real presence, but do not define it. All I know is that God can do with it, and me, as He pleases. I am just obedient to take it by faith.

 

[ContraMundum]

Thank you That is exactly right... the whole point of moving forward is to also move away from practices and traditions that are corrupted and are not instituted by God or Yeshua.

The trouble is that the attempts to repristinate the practices and faith of the Church are often led by ill-informed people who really are forcing their own private opinions (based on their "findings") on the rest of us, and when we catch them out, they protest even louder. Thank God no one really takes these row-boat Admirals seriously. True reform of the Church happens en masse, with the Spirit witnessing to more than just a handful of enthusiasts (I use that term theologically speaking- Google it if you don't know it).

 

[Heber]

It's a mis-understanding of the Lord's Table that would make someone think that they are eating their God like some kind of cannibal. They are eating their passover lamb. Just as you had to consume the lamb to get out of Egypt. The symbolism is Judaic, not Pagan. What kind of idiot makes this pagan copycat junk up when it is straight out of scripture?

Which has been precisely my argument. Whatever may have happened elsewhere in history, for whatever reason, and by whatever peoples, it was not, and is not, the equal to a Christian celebration of Communion (by whatever other name you may choose to use). I agree, it is absolute nonsense to make the connection. My theology students wouldn't even dream of presenting such an argument - it being so far off the wall - if one did it would be a certain fail of that paper. Secular historians may find some merit in it, I suppose.

As I have already said, too much etic and not enough emic leads people to make these simple yet offensive errors. If you know not what those two words are - look them up!

 

[Heber]

I don't believe in transubstantiation. I don't even think many Catholics do anymore. It's a doctrine that was an attempt to defend the words of Jesus "this is my body" from interpretations that said "this isn't my body". I believe in pious silence. I don't deny, confirm or try to understand what goes on in any holy rite- I just protect the words of Jesus.

Transubstantiation is the idea that the bread no longer exists except in its physical form, and its essence or substance has changed into the Body of the Lord (same goes for the wine and the Blood). The bread and wine do not change into physical body and blood, but change in a miraculous spiritual manner.

I believe in the real presence, but do not define it. All I know is that God can do with it, and me, as He pleases. I am just obedient to take it by faith.

 

[anisavta]

Chava the one basic tenant of both MJ and Christianity is the same. Yeshua(Jesus) is the Anointed One and is the final atonement sacrifice. But then the paths start to split. And the splits are large or small depending on congregations, people, culture, demographics etc. An MJ congregation in NYC with a mostly Jewish group would cringe at being called Christian or even remotely wanting to be associated with Christianity because most have a holocaust story. Their traditions are Jewish and they want to keep it that way. However an MJ congregation in Iowa with maybe one or two token Jews and the others coming out of Christian churches having grown up with Christianese will still consider themselves Christians.

 

[visionary]

Chava the one basic tenant of both MJ and Christianity is the same. Yeshua(Jesus) is the Anointed One and is the final atonement sacrifice. But then the paths start to split. And the splits are large or small depending on congregations, people, culture, demographics etc. An MJ congregation in NYC with a mostly Jewish group would cringe at being called Christian or even remotely wanting to be associated with Christianity because most have a holocaust story. Their traditions are Jewish and they want to keep it that way. However an MJ congregation in Iowa with maybe one or two token Jews and the others coming out of Christian churches having grown up with Christianese will still consider themselves Christians.

but both parties have taken this step into MJ faith because of convictions that other religious organizations do not fit what they believe to be true.

 

[Heber]

AS - ChavaK and I see no problem in the point being made - as I said, it is so well known that we do not need to debate it; we are all fully aware of the key tenets of both Christianity and the Messianic movement but... what is the particular relevance to the matter under debate of these two facts. In what way are they being seen as a significant factor?

 

[anisavta]

Sorry - maybe my brain hasn't come out of stasis yet today but would you explain your statement, Vis.

 

[Heber]

but both parties have taken this step into MJ faith because of convictions that other religious organizations do not fit what they believe to be true.

Our last posts crossed - now I see what your enigmatic comments meant. However, these are not universal truths by any stretch of the imagination. Many non-Jews who join the Messianic movement join from a growing conviction that it is the right way, often from friends, conferences, J4J in Church visits, etc etc - not because they have necessarily fallen out with the Church. Most Jews in MJ'ism, join out of a growing conviction, rather than any suggestion that they have fallen out with the synagogue. Or is the movement made up entirely from disaffected Christians and Jews?

 

[anisavta]

AS - ChavaK and I see no problem in the point being made - as I said, it is so well known that we do not need to debate it; we are all fully aware of the key tenets of both Christianity and the Messianic movement but... what is the particular relevance to the matter under debate of these two facts. In what way are they being seen as a significant factor?

That Jews don't want to be associated with the word Christianity or Christian?

 

[Heber]

That Jews don't want to be associated with the word Christianity or Christian?

Now you know why we were asking about the relevance to the debate, as Vis saw it. But see my previous post.

 

[visionary]

Our last posts crossed - now I see what your enigmatic comments meant. However, these are not universal truths by any stretch of the imagination. Many non-Jews who join the Messianic movement join from a growing conviction that it is the right way - not because they have necessarily fallen out with the Church. Most Jews in MJ'ism, join out of a growing conviction, rather than any suggestion that they have fallen out with the synagogue. Or is the movement made up entirely from disaffected Christians and Jews?

and that is what makes MJ unique .. it isn't part of Catholicism, Protestantism. The path of MJ believers is a returning to the roots of the faith. It is not a new religion but the Yeshua styled version of Judaism.

 

[Heber]

and that is what makes MJ unique .. it isn't part of Catholicism, Protestantism. The path of MJ believers is a returning to the roots of the faith. It is not a new religion but the Yeshua styled version of Judaism.

But, as is often the case, it turns out that is not what you have actually been saying - you have been playing the card of disaffection alone, which is vastly different. In fact, large parts of the Messianic Movement (why just MJ's - they wouldn't have started as Catholics or Protestants, would they?) exist within the evangelical Christian Church from a desire to get back to being 1st century congregations.

 

[visionary]

But, as is often the case, it turns out that is not what you have actually been saying - you have been playing the card of disaffection alone, which is vastly different. In fact, large parts of the Messianic Movement (why just MJ's - they wouldn't have started as Catholics or Protestants, would they?) exist within the evangelical Christian Church from a desire to get back to being 1st century congregations.

Not in all cases.. God leads His people even out of Egypt.. even if that is where they were born and raised.