Messianic Judaism

[Heber]

I've seen a growing trend on the part of some (not all!) Messianics to try
to attach pagan meaning to certain Christian beliefs and rituals.
I find that appalling.

Other posters have indicated a similar view point in different ways. Thank you for your comments.

 

[Huram Abi]

This is totally off the wall! No credible Christian has ever taken this view. It is actually based on the Passover / Feast of un-leavened bread which is why it also has the names: The Lord's Supper or The Last Supper, unless you are also saying that Passover is also based on the same historical events.

That depends on what you mean by "credible."

Plenty of Christians accept history and archeology outside the scope of the Bible. Not to diminish the Last Supper, but the Eucharist has existed for thousands of years in various forms. If you are against the Sciences, then it may be quite possible that you would hear this as incredible. But what observation into the relics of our past and the writings and practices of the Egyptians during specific periods tells us is that the Eucharist began as a pagan practice.

Perhaps Jesus reclaimed it, but it might be better to assume the Last Supper took place with a Hebrew pretence rather than a Gentile one and that the "Eucharist" as modern Christians know it is a concatonation of the two due to the process of Hellinization.

 

[Heber]

That depends on what you mean by "credible."

Plenty of Christians accept history and archeology outside the scope of the Bible. Not to diminish the Last Supper, but the Eucharist has existed for thousands of years in various forms. If you are against the Sciences, then it may be quite possible that you would hear this as incredible. But what observation into the relics of our past and the writings and practices of the Egyptians during specific periods tells us is that the Eucharist began as a pagan practice.

Perhaps Jesus reclaimed it, but it might be better to assume the Last Supper took place with a Hebrew pretence rather than a Gentile one and that the "Eucharist" as modern Christians know it is a concatonation of the two due to the process of Hellinization.

And where did you study to learn these 'facts'?

 

[yedida]

That depends on what you mean by "credible."

Plenty of Christians accept history and archeology outside the scope of the Bible. Not to diminish the Last Supper, but the Eucharist has existed for thousands of years in various forms. If you are against the Sciences, then it may be quite possible that you would hear this as incredible. But what observation into the relics of our past and the writings and practices of the Egyptians during specific periods tells us is that the Eucharist began as a pagan practice.

Perhaps Jesus reclaimed it, but it might be better to assume the Last Supper took place with a Hebrew pretence rather than a Gentile one and that the "Eucharist" as modern Christians know it is a concatonation of the two due to the process of Hellinization.

Why would anyone even consider that there was a gentile hint to the Last Supper, the Passover? It was never a gentile observance! Sheesh!!

 

[visionary]

Wrong - scripture does. I think I've been around long enough (7years) to know what the various fora are on CF!

The link given to cannibalism is NOT connected in any way, shape or form to the Eucharist (or the same event by any other name used by the Church). If you wish to continue attacking the Church please show real irrefutable evidence for your claims or cease the attack. I'm getting fed up with it - the red button will be used if it persists.

I agree scripture... If you won't accept the irrefutable evidence.. nothing stops you from stopping the discussion where you want to get off. You are trained to behave the way you do. Obviously you bought it. Mind closed.

 

[Huram Abi]

And where did you study to learn these 'facts'?

I begin any search for truth with no assumptions about the subject so that I am sure to minimalize the impact of my subjective ideology on my final conclusion. I've also been disciplined to develop and utilize critical thinking skills to interpret all relevant information in a meaningful way that suspends my bias so I see the subject in any relevant dimension rather than choosing to see things in 2D; that is, from only one side.

So, where do I find these facts? In college research databases and in religious and archeology forums, to begin. I also have a personal library filled with books on various related topics. Comparative religion and history courses have helped, as well. The artifacts of this subject are well-documented and archived, if one chooses to expand their scope of information to include sources outside of television, work, and church.

 

[Huram Abi]

Why would anyone even consider that there was a gentile hint to the Last Supper, the Passover? It was never a gentile observance! Sheesh!!

Well, not until Paul brought it to them, anyway.

Of course, you will remember that the customs of the Jews, then and now, are considered with certain prejudices so in order to make the adoption of them by the Gentiles more palatable, they may have been slightly altered to seem more familiar to what they were already accustomed.

 

[anisavta]

Hey Mr. Spike welcome. Feel free to add a bark anytime.
Chava I think it just depends on what a person came out of as far as Christianity. Many come into the MJ movement from very abusive churches and doctrines so as they step back and see the forest for the trees so to speak they see all the pagan influences they grew up believing as Christian truth. Talk about tradition... It takes time to unpack the box and place truth from tradition from out and out pagan influence into piles and then throw out what isn't truth without throwing out the baby too.
I know for me it was an eye opener to find out that what I was taught all my life was not necessarily truth and much steeped in pagan influence. And then adding Judaism and those traditions into the mix. Lots of paradigm shifts.

 

[cupid dave]

Elijah is meant to literally cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth; the same men who were swallowed up by the earth. This is not the same as making disciples out of normal, living men.

Hmmm...

Read carefully and see that the Korah story was to be a SIGN:

One of the even Miracles to ID Elijah: "he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth."

Numbers 26:10 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up together with Korah when that company died, when the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men; and they became a SIGN.

 

[Huram Abi]

Hmmm...

Read carefully and see that the Korah story was to be a SIGN:

One of the even Miracles to ID Elijah: "he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth."

Numbers 26:10 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up together with Korah when that company died, when the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men; and they became a SIGN.

We are agreed. Do you have a point?

 

[cupid dave]

Well, not until Paul brought it to them, anyway.

Of course, you will remember that the customs of the Jews, then and now, are considered with certain prejudices so in order to make the adoption of them by the Gentiles more palatable, they may have been slightly altered to seem more familiar to what they were already accustomed.

It wasn't that Judaism was to be made more palatable but merely the fact that Gentiles had always only needed to obseve the Seven Noachide Laws anyway.

The critics of Paul just did not think about that.


When one of the Children of Noah engages in the study of the Seven Universal Laws, he is able to attain a spiritual level higher than the High Priest of the Jews, who alone has the sanctity to enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem. [see Babylonian Talmud, Baba Kamma 38a]

 

[Huram Abi]

It wasn't that Judaism was to be made more palatable but merely the fact that Gentiles had always only needed to obseve the Seven Noachide Laws anyway.

The critics of Paul just did not think about that.


When one of the Children of Noah engages in the study of the Seven Universal Laws, he is able to attain a spiritual level higher than the High Priest of the Jews, who alone has the sanctity to enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem. [see Babylonian Talmud, Baba Kamma 38a]

Get your facts straight. Babba Kamma 38a says that the Gentile must study the entire Torah to be likened to the High Priest.

 

[Huram Abi]

Furthermore, let us consider this:
Shabbot 31a


The Convert Who Wanted to be High Priest

...a Gentile was walking near a synagogue when he heard the Torah being read and translated:

"These are the clothes that you should make: the jeweled breast-plate, the ephod-apron..." (Ex. 28:4).

His interest was piqued. 'For whom are these fancy clothes?' he asked. 'They are special garments for the Kohen Gadol, the High Priest.' The Gentile was excited. 'For this, it is worth becoming a Jew. I'll go convert and become the next High Priest!' The Gentile made the mistake of approaching Shamai.

'I want you to convert me,' he told Shamai, 'but only on condition that you appoint me High Priest.' Shamai rebuffed the man, pushing him away with a builder's measuring rod. Then he went to Hillel with the same proposition. Amazingly, Hillel agreed to convert him. Hillel, however, gave the man some advice. 'If you wanted to be king, you would need to learn the ways and customs of the royal court. Since you aspire to be the High Priest, go study the appropriate laws.'

So the new convert began studying Torah. One day, he came across the verse, "Any non-priest who participates [in the holy service] shall die" (Num. 3:10). 'To whom does this refer?' he asked. Even King David, he was told. Even David, king of Israel, was not allowed to serve in the holy Temple, as he was not a descendant of Aaron the kohen. The convert was amazed. Even those born Jewish, and who are referred to as God's children, are not allowed to serve in the Temple!

Certainly, a convert who has just arrived with his staff and pack may not perform this holy service. Recognizing his mistake, he returned to Hillel, saying, 'May blessings fall on your head, humble Hillel, for drawing me under the wings of the Divine Presence.'

 

[cupid dave]

We are agreed.
Do you have a point?

Oh?
Good.


My point was that the Christian Cross is de facto the scepter of the God of the Bible as everyone tody must plainly see.
Even "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Jesus" uses that scepter to symbolize its message.

Then, another of the seven miracles of Elijah is the sign of Korah's opposition to The Law which was initiated in the wilderness.

A third miracle was fulfilled in 32AD during the transfiguration when Moses appeared to them in the wilderness:

"He will bring before them Moses and the generation of the wilderness."

These points I make in response to your post that said it is important to make a case for Elijah returned in 32AD in this regard.

Right?

 

[cupid dave]

Get your facts straight. Babba Kamma 38a says that the Gentile must study the entire Torah to be likened to the High Priest.

Hmmm...
I am pretty good on the facts.

The whole of the matter is this:

"When one of the Children of Noah engages in the study of the Seven Universal Laws, he is able to attain a spiritual level higher than the High Priest of the Jews, who alone has the sanctity to enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem."
[bless and do not curse]
AND...

"If one of the Children of Noah wishes to accept the full responsibility of the Torah and the 613 Commandments, he or she can convert and become a Jew IN EVERY respect.
One who elects to do this is called a ger tzedek, a righteous proselyte. "

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Kamma 38a
http://www.halakhah.com/babakamma/babakamma_38.html

 

[yedida]

I think both of you need to review the CF rules. Neither of you are MJ, why are you debating among yourselves here? This should be taken to Gen. Theo. or Unorthodox Thoe.

 

[Huram Abi]

Oh?
Good.


My point was that the Christian Cross is de facto the scepter of the God of the Bible as everyone tody must plainly see.
Even "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Jesus" uses that scepter to symbolize its message.

Then, another of the seven miracles of Elijah is the sign of Korah's opposition to The Law which was initiated in the wilderness.

A third miracle was fulfilled in 32AD during the transfiguration when Moses appeared to them in the wilderness:

"He will bring before them Moses and the generation of the wilderness."

These points I make in response to your post that said it is important to make a case for Elijah returned in 32AD in this regard.

Right?

So your point has nothing to do with Korah? Why did you bring it up?

And, no, just as bacteria are not "de facto" plants, the cross is not "de facto" the miracle of reproducing the same staff that was laid across the dead child's face.

Go, join an actual congregation, Jewish or otherwise, and learn the subjects before you presume to speak about them.

Your claim about Elijah returning in 32 CE has been dismissed.

 

[Huram Abi]

I think both of you need to review the CF rules. Neither of you are MJ, why are you debating among yourselves here? This should be taken to Gen. Theo. or Unorthodox Thoe.

How have you determined that I am not a MJ? I will gladly refrain from speaking on these matters here if it is against the rules to discuss the relevance of Jewish teaching and tradition as it relates to a messiah.

 

[cupid dave]

I think both of you need to review the CF rules. Neither of you are MJ, why are you debating among yourselves here? This should be taken to Gen. Theo. or Unorthodox Thoe.

The forum says this is for gentiles and MJ's...
Right?

 

[yonah_mishael]

The forum says this is for gentiles and MJ's...
Right?

In order to debate, you are supposed to have the MJ icon. That's for sure.