Messianic Judaism

[Desert Rose]

Do you think that the majority of Jews were able to read Hebrew just because of this fact? Or, were the books published for a specific audience that was Hebrew literate?

I never made the claim that there was zero Hebrew literacy in Israel at the time of Jesus.

maybe not then, but we are working on it! considering most reading done by young gen is phone text mssgs, just 2k years later we can expect zero literacy, soon.

It should come as no surprise that Jewish religious books, even sectarian in nature, were published in Hebrew.

lucky them.
at the rate we regress, most religious books will soon be pubished in a form of coloring books.

 

[Desert Rose]

Or, it may be that they simply didn't know Hebrew vs. Aramaic.

תרתי משמע

there might be a pun in it that would be hard to explain, but Yonah would know. the expression is actualy aramaic, from talmud, but is considered a part of hebrew now. Insteresting grammatically

But ..you said a wise thing yonah, on another thread. Best advice to one seeking a good translation is "many of them, read over many years" Its like "whats the best resipe for the chicken soup?- 20 years spent behind the stove.." NO shortcuts in theological studies (did I scored some points with our precious pastors Heber and CM?

 

[visionary]

NIV also has a lot of footnotes for the OT that say 'meaning of the Hebrew uncertain.'

Interesting isn't it, that there is so much that the translators can't state with any certainty what the Hebrew word means..

 

[Lulav]

RE:Translations, I don't understand why they couldn't be consistent from one 'testament' to the other. Even the NIV does not translate the names (which are important for understanding the history) the same.

For example the KJV uses Joseph and Jose for Yosef. This is confusing if you don't know the etymology of the names.

NIV instead of Yeshua's brothers names in transliterated English to
Ya'akov (or Jacob) Yosef (or Joshep), Simeon (Simon) and Yehuda (Judah)

they have

James, Joseph, Simon and Judas

Why the inconsistency?

They should have at least listed them as

Jacob, Joseph, Simon and Judah

And the KJV isn't any better, adding to the confusion

and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Yet they have translated Yeshua's father as

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together , she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Joseph, not 'Joses'

 

[visionary]

maybe not then, but we are working on it! considering most reading done by young gen is phone text mssgs, just 2k years later we can expect zero literacy, soon.
lucky them.
at the rate we regress, most religious books will soon be pubished in a form of coloring books.

anime..Manga... my teenage granddaughter...love them... there is not enough Christian versions.

 

[cupid dave]

I find you folks fascinating.

You are perhaps the most true and direct heirs to Christ Yahshua's teachings and ministries - did he not come, after all, to (among other reasons) reform Judaism? I think that Messianic Jews represent the realization of this intent. What do you think? If I had my way I'd be a "Jew for Jesus". I've been thinking that to accomplish this goal I might convert to Judaism and then back to Christianity!

The messianic Jews are knowledgeable about the traditions that flowed out of Judaism and they alone can appreciate the consideration that The Christ was the Elijah returned in 32AD.

Our congregation sees this clearly since the Tradition of Seven Miracles told the jews long before 32AD that Elijah would be recognized by the miracles he woyld perform.
Consider these miracles and check the scriotures for more:


Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.
Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities.
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.
Both had miraculous births.
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd.
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.

 

[ContraMundum]

Thanks much to you and CM for opinions expressed, as always.

You're welcome. I'm not sure anybody else reads what I write though!

CM, you know i am not trying to be a pain, not deliberatly at least, but what is The Church? does it have any more or less unified theology on anything, like baptism?Do you mean "christian orthodoxy", more or less?

The Church is God's people in the spiritual sense, but God's visible organized people in the more earthly sense. I do believe that to be part of the visible Church you have to accept the basic tenets of Christian Orthodoxy, even if you express them in your own unique customary way. Baptism is one of those basic tenets.

While i agree that we, modern people, have little respect for the church authority , probably due to xtianity's despicable history and notoriously bad present, I do think authority and certain discipline is good. Sports, military and such prove the benefits of discipline. I was in a churches were anarchy in thought and deed ruled,and it stifles the personal spiritual growth, i'd agree

I personally don't think the Church is all that bad, to be honest. The more I get on in life, the more good I see coming out of it. But then again, I minister in a very different setting. I see charity, good works and communities that change their neighborhoods in my current experience with the Church. I hear about all the bad drama with the Church on the news, but then again, I think society is being programmed to feel fear and panic all the time by the news, because bad news gets ratings, so I think the bad stories are the minority.

 

[Huram Abi]

The messianic Jews are knowledgeable about the traditions that flowed out of Judaism and they alone can appreciate the consideration that The Christ was the Elijah returned in 32AD.

Our congregation sees this clearly since the Tradition of Seven Miracles told the jews long before 32AD that Elijah would be recognized by the miracles he woyld perform.
Consider these miracles and check the scriotures for more:


Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.
Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities.
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.
Both had miraculous births.
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd.
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.

Wow. Now you are doing the same thing with an appeal to the authority of science but now with the authority of the Jews?

These are the 7 miracles Elijah will perform when he returns:

(1) He will bring before them Moses and the generation of the wilderness; (2) he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth;
(3) he will revive the Messiah, the son of Joseph;
(4) he will show them again the three mysteriously lost sacred utensils of the Temple, namely, the Ark, the vessel of manna, and the vessel of sacred oil;
(5) he will show the scepter which he received from God;
(6) he will crush mountains like straw;
(7) he will reveal the great mystery

Jesus did not do this. No messianic Jew or bible reading Christian would agree that he did.

The miracles you listed are quite questionable, to say the least and none of them signal a fulfillment of these 7 requirements. And some of these "miracles" are not based on scripture. Jesus wrote letters to Earth after ascencion? Is this a joke?

And what congregation? There are more of you? What is the name of your "church"? Do you have an elder I can contact?
​

 

[pat34lee]

These are the 7 miracles Elijah will perform when he returns:

(1) He will bring before them Moses and the generation of the wilderness; (2) he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth;
(3) he will revive the Messiah, the son of Joseph;
(4) he will show them again the three mysteriously lost sacred utensils of the Temple, namely, the Ark, the vessel of manna, and the vessel of sacred oil;
(5) he will show the scepter which he received from God;
(6) he will crush mountains like straw;
(7) he will reveal the great mystery ​

Who made this list?

 

[yedida]

Wow. Now you are doing the same thing with an appeal to the authority of science but now with the authority of the Jews?

These are the 7 miracles Elijah will perform when he returns:

(1) He will bring before them Moses and the generation of the wilderness; (2) he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth;
(3) he will revive the Messiah, the son of Joseph;
(4) he will show them again the three mysteriously lost sacred utensils of the Temple, namely, the Ark, the vessel of manna, and the vessel of sacred oil;
(5) he will show the scepter which he received from God;
(6) he will crush mountains like straw;
(7) he will reveal the great mystery

Jesus did not do this. No messianic Jew or bible reading Christian would agree that he did.

The miracles you listed are quite questionable, to say the least and none of them signal a fulfillment of these 7 requirements. And some of these "miracles" are not based on scripture. Jesus wrote letters to Earth after ascencion? Is this a joke?

And what congregation? There are more of you? What is the name of your "church"? Do you have an elder I can contact?
​

And

Originally Posted by cupid dave

The messianic Jews are knowledgeable about the traditions that flowed out of Judaism and they alone can appreciate the consideration that The Christ was the Elijah returned in 32AD.

Our congregation sees this clearly since the Tradition of Seven Miracles told the jews long before 32AD that Elijah would be recognized by the miracles he woyld perform.
Consider these miracles and check the scriotures for more:


Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.
Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities.
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.
Both had miraculous births.
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd.
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.



​

Both you and CupidDave have made "lists" that you claim are scripturel. For now, one thing: it is normal and common courtesy to give scriptural references when making such statements, or give references as to where you came up with the information - so I ask, where is this located? Where did the two of you get this information? What website, book, or if in the Bible, book, chapter and verses please. Thank you.

 

[Huram Abi]

Who made this list?

It is traditional. I'm not saying it is scripturally based, but it comes from the Jews as part of the smaller midrashim.

The reason I bring it up is because Cupid is making appeals to the Jewish expectation for when Elijah will return, but he isn't actually using the Jewish information on the subject. He's just borrowing their credentials to impose his own unsupported belief. I guess he expects that none of us know all this stuff already.

In order to determine the difference between what he claims and what the truth is, it is important to recognize what the Jews really have to say on the subject.

 

[Lulav]

There are seven miracles that Elijah performed while on earth.

1. Caused the rain the cease for 3 1/2 years (1Ki 17:1)
2. Was fed by the ravens and the widow(1Ki 17:4,14)
3. Resurrection of the widow's son (1Ki 17:22)
4. Calling of fire from heaven on the water soaked altar (1Ki 18:38)
5. Causing it to rain (1Ki 18:45)
6. Calling fire from heaven upon soldiers (2Ki 2:10,12)
7. Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:8)

Fire, water and food seems to be the theme here.

 

[yedida]

It is traditional. I'm not saying it is scripturally based, but it comes from the Jews as part of the smaller midrashim.

The reason I bring it up is because Cupid is making appeals to the Jewish expectation for when Elijah will return, but he isn't actually using the Jewish information on the subject. He's just borrowing their credentials to impose his own unsupported belief. I guess he expects that none of us know all this stuff already.

In order to determine the difference between what he claims and what the truth is, it is important to recognize what the Jews really have to say on the subject.

Thank you for explaining. We're aware that the quotes are from the Jewish writings, but those are many volumes. It would be nice if either you or he could cite where we could read them for ourselves and judge them against what is posed.
And if it is found that CupidDave is teaching against what is generally held by MJ he is not allowed to do this, or debate us, as he is not MJ. (This is CF rules, not our own, carried across all the different congregational areas.)

 

[Lulav]

Both you and CupidDave have made "lists" that you claim are scripturel. For now, one thing: it is normal and common courtesy to give scriptural references when making such statements, or give references as to where you came up with the information - so I ask, where is this located? Where did the two of you get this information? What website, book, or if in the Bible, book, chapter and verses please. Thank you.

I don't think he said they were scriptural yedida, this is common understanding in Judaism.

From JE

(1) He will bring before them Moses and the generation of the wilderness; (2) he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth;
(3) he will revive the Messiah, the son of Joseph;
(4) he will show them again the three mysteriously lost sacred utensils of the Temple, namely, the Ark, the vessel of manna, and the vessel of sacred oil
(5) he will show the scepter which he received from God;
(6) he will crush mountains like straw;
(7) he will reveal the great mystery (Jellinek, l.c. iii. 72).

At the bidding of the Messiah, Elijah will sound the trumpet, and at the first blast the primitive light will appear;
at the second, the dead will rise;
and at the third, the Divine Majesty will appear

​

 

[Heber]

(considering baptismal site been built many ( at least 30) years or so ago. how old is he..?Br Heber, you personally knew King Solomon, I bet
Thanks much to you and CM for opinions expressed, as always.

CM, you know i am not trying to be a pain, not deliberatly at least, but what is The Church? does it have any more or less unified theology on anything, like baptism?Do you mean "christian orthodoxy", more or less?

While i agree that we, modern people, have little respect for the church authority , probably due to xtianity's despicable history and notoriously bad present, I do think authority and certain discipline is good. Sports, military and such prove the benefits of discipline. I was in a churches were anarchy in thought and deed ruled,and it stifles the personal spiritual growth, i'd agree

October 1986 - there were no railings into the water at the then Baptismal site, one just walked into the water! I know some think that when I was born the Dead Sea was only poorly, but that is a nothing but a rumour!

 

[yedida]

You're welcome. I'm not sure anybody else reads what I write though!

Ah, Contra, I read everything you post. We do buck horns a bit, you and I, but there are times when we stand in agreement and/or understanding - and those times bring joy. (And if we agreed with everyone on everything, then we might just as well pack it all up and call it a day for there'd be nothing left for any of us to share and learn. You think?)

 

[GuardianShua]

It's true, all of it:

"The Great Falling Away" OR The Great Awakening? - YouTube!

Paul preached that Yahshua was the Messiah, and to keep the commandments of God. Paul is misunderstood, and scriptures are not always correctly translated.

 

[yedida]

It's true, all of it:

"The Great Falling Away" OR The Great Awakening? - YouTube!

First of all - it is AGAINST CF/s rules to come in here or anyplace on CF bashing Paul (or anyone, biblical or the guy living next door to you!).
Don't think you are presenting anything new to us. We've heard all there is to hear about Paul.

Whether or not some of us agree with you that Paul may not be the wonderful teacher that traditional Christianity has made him out to be is not even the issue (but those of us who may not think so highly of him certainly do not see him as the Antichrist!). The issue is that when you signed up, you agreed that you would not attack any one on a personal basis. Calling someone the Antichrist is a definite attack against that person. This is breaking your agreement. And it is a terrible witness on your part.
This is CF rules and we all agreed to abide by them, including you.

If you have an objection to something in particular that someone has taught, give references, what you think they are teaching and why you think it is faulty with scriptural references to back up you point of view and we can have a discussion. But you must not attack the person.

Second, I would find it very difficult to take seriously anything said by a person who cannot even get Hashem's personal name correct!!! My computer no longer has Hebrew fonts downloaded on it but I have never ever seen God's name as alef-hei-yud-hei! Never! What is that? ahyih, ehyih, ihyih, ohyih, uhyih?
Whatever it is, Yonah or another Hebrew speaker will come along later today or probably tomorrow and tell us what that word is and how it is pronounced (if, in fact, it is a word or name).

(I will state now that my eyesight is absolutely horrible, I could have read those letters wrong, but I check 4 different times the 2 places where they are used (up to the point where the video calls Paul the Antichrist - I turned it off at that point) - anyway, each time I read "alef-hei-yud-hei." So, if I saw it wrong, I apologize now and ask forgiveness.)

 

[cupid dave]

Who made this list?

The list is found in the Encyclopedia Judaica.

And of course Hesus did these and more:
For instance, the Cross is the scepter: "he will show the scepter which he received from God."

go gere to find the Traditional list but remember the general idea, that by his miracles Elijah will be recognized:


Jewish Encyclopedia:
The Seven Miracles

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=245&letter=E&search=elijah miracles#650

 

[cupid dave]

1) Wow. Now you are doing the same thing with an appeal to the authority of science but now with the authority of the Jews?

These are the 7 miracles Elijah will perform when he returns:

2)

(1) He will bring before them Moses and the generation of the wilderness; (2) he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth;
(3) he will revive the Messiah, the son of Joseph;
(4) he will show them again the three mysteriously lost sacred utensils of the Temple, namely, the Ark, the vessel of manna, and the vessel of sacred oil;
(5) he will show the scepter which he received from God;
(6) he will crush mountains like straw;
(7) he will reveal the great mystery

Jesus did not do this.



3) Jesus wrote letters to Earth after ascencion? Is this a joke? ​

Christian need remember that Christ said "I am the Truth, and the way"... so we need look openly at the facts abd have no fear of the truth but a love for it when it changes our mind.


1) I do appeal to the ancient Tradition of Seven Miracles as the way the Jews expected to recognize Elijah.

2) Jesus did all seven miracles and more.

For Instance:
The 12 apostles were the company "he will cause Korah and his company to rise out of the earth."

Elijah DID revive the crucified Jesus, or the messiah son of Joseph.

(Remember that Korah oppose the authority of The Law in the days of Moses.)

3) Jesus wrote "the letter to Earth" to John, called Revelation, after His ascencion.