Messianic Judaism a fraud?

[Jase]

Hi all,

First I will say, I'm a Messianic Jew ( born of a Jewish mother, and believe in Y'shua as the Messiah).

Anyway, on an atheist message board I witness to, they keep bringing up that Messianic Judaism is a creation of Southern Baptists, and they call me a disgrace to real Judaism

Does Messianic Judaism have anything to do with Southern Baptists? The insults I got from these atheists for being a Messianic Jew ( which they claim is a completely contradiction) were extreme, and its been really upsetting to me.

Am I fraud for being both Jewish and Christian? My whole family is Jewish and are against my beliefs, so its pretty rough when you can't even turn to your own family without criticism and implying its a fraud.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Hello Jase and welcome!

Firstly I must say that this

I'm a Messianic Jew ( born of a Jewish mother, and believe in Y'shua as the Messiah).

Doesn't necessarily make you a MJ.

Am I fraud for being both Jewish and Christian?

I am taking this to mean that you are in a Christian church?

See according to main Messianic organization, just being a Jewish believer in Yeshua as Messiah, doesn't make you Messianic. It depends on how you live your life and worship and specifically when Saturday VS Sunday .

As far as the Southern Baptist thing this is the first I have heard of that.

If you were called a disgrace, where these atheists, Jewish? Because that is what it sounds like to me, they will say that they don't even believe in HaShem but will ridicule you for being a believer in Yeshua, but not a practicing Jew.

Make sense? No, because we are dealing in the Spiritual here. But don't worry, if you love Yeshua, you are welcome here and will never be called a traitor, nor a disgrace.

He even warned us: Matt.10:22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."

Don't fear, for he himself overcame the world.

 

[simchat_torah]

I have never heard of MJ'ism being traced back to Southern Baptists. I suppose if anyone wants to trace it to a specific movement in the US, and this is a GIANT STRETCH! One might point to the Assemblies of G-d. Jews for J-sus originally was a missions movement in the AG'ers and then sprout out from there and became it's own ministry. However, hardly a messianic congregation in the US (and this is strictly limited to US btw) can even trace it's roots to J4J's.

If you would really like to blow off their socks... point to some of the following messianics as the 'original' modern movement origins:
Rov Isaac (Yitzhak) Lichtenstein- early 1880's

Rov Isaac (Yitzhak) Lichtenstein- early 1880's. A respected District Rabbi in Hungary, he picked up an old copy of the ReNewed Covenant (i.e. New Testament) and began reading it. As he later remarked, "Not the half had been told me of the greatness, power and glory of this Book, formerly a sealed book to me. All seemed so new, and yet it did me good, like the sight of an old friend who has laid aside his dusty, travel-worn garments, and appears in festive attire, like a bridegroom in wedding robes, or a bride adorned with her jewels."

Not too long after that, Rabbi Lichtenstein starting teaching from the Newer Testament to his synagogue and people. Because of his reputation and position, the Synod of Rabbis in Hungary cited him to appear before them and explain himself. After prolonged discussion and much interaction with Rabbi Lichtenstein, the assembled rabbis demanded that he should resign his position and be formally baptized. he replied that he had no intention of joining any church. He had found in the Newer Testament the true completion of Judaism; so he would remain as before with his congregation, and preach it in the synagogue. And, that's what he did despite persecution and abuse. From his official place as District Rabbi he continued to teach and to preach from the Newer Testament (i.e. "Renewed Covenant" mentioned by Yerme'yahu haNovi, Jeremiah 31:31). This was a testimony to the strong attachment of his own community and the attentiveness of his synagogue.

Soon, Rabbi Lichtenstein and his writings had become widely known, and many different church and missionary organizations sought his services.

The Papacy, too, soon learned of his existence and significance. A special emissary from the Pope visited Tapio Szele, Hungary, with attractive offers to join the Catholic Church. To all he had the same reply: "I will remain among my own nation. I love Messiah. I believe in the New Testament but I am not drawn to join Christendom, so I will remain among my own brethren, as a watchman from within and to plead with them to behold in Yeshua (Jesus) the true glory of Israel."

as well as:
Joseph Rabinowitz (1837-1899)

Joseph Rabinowitz (1837-1899) is one of the most remarkable figures of the recent history of Jewish believers. Joseph Rabinowitz grew up a Chossidic Jew. In the Russian town of Kishinev he set up a congregation which is called "The Israelites of the New Covenant." As a Jew who believed in Yeshua, Rabinowitz insisted on his Jewish identity; that caused some problems which Messianic Jews of our day are familiar with. In 1888 Rabinowitz said, "I have two subjects with which I am absorbed: one, the Messiah Yeshua (Jesus); the other, Israel."

Rabinowitz published at least one booklet in Yiddish in 1894 entitled "What is an Israelitte of the New Covenant?" in which two Rabbis dialog, one is Messianic, the other is not. All of Joseph Rabinowitz's derash'eem (sermons) were written in Hebrew, in which all, the term B'nai B'rit Chadasha (Sons of The Renewed Covenant) is found written upon them.

As well, David Stern has made quite an influential impact on modern Messianics...

However, this is all in the setting of "modern messianics". Truth be told, you can trace the messianic movement all through the centuries back to the first century. There isn't a single century where a major messianic leader was influential in one way or another. The original Netzarim (first sect of Judaism that followed the 'messiah' Y'shua) existed from the first century and well into the 13th Century. It is well documented if you are interested.

No, I'm afraid it did not start with the Southern Baptists. In fact, I have never even heard of a Messianic connection with the Southern Baptists.

Very strange indeed. I suspect they are merely grasping at straws and making up anything they want just to toss aside what you have to present. It's too difficult for them to handle any level of scholarship and so they will make up any random nonesense to excuse it.

IN fact... I make THEM a challenge. Come here and prove to us, historically, that the Messianic movement (modern or otherwise) has it's origins in the Southern Baptist movement.

I predict: A sure and complete failing of this task.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[iitb]

I've seen a couple of different sites that refer to Jews for Jesus as a Southern Baptist ministry. That might be where this claim comes from.

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

They're probably referring to Jews for Jesus, which I in no way consider a Messianic organization. Its almost entirely Gentile and many of their beliefs are anti-Messianic in that they try to get Jews to turn away from Biblical Judaism.

However the Messianic Judaism movements really have nothing to do with Southern Baptists. I know many Baptist organizations officially don't even believe that you can be both a Jew and a Christian. Though I don't know if Southern Baptists in particular hold to that.

In the 19th century the Church of England was one of the big supporters of Messianic Judaism as they were also once in support of Jews returning to Israel. Thats more plausible than anything, but Messianics still have little connection beyond this historical support.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Ah yes, that rings a bell! A Rebbe friend of mine told me that the founder of J4J ( Moshe Rosen) is an ordained Baptist minister. But besides that I don't think that the Baptists have anything to do with it. I think he is located in California so that would leave the southerners out. I will have to check on this all but that just came to mind when reading Simchat's post.

 

[iitb]

This may be derailing the topic, but...

Back in March, yashanet.com received a letter from a "Messianic congregation" that was nothing more than a SBC mission to convert Jews to Christianity. The letter and rebuttal can be found here:
http://www.yashanet.com/library/sbcletter.htm

As someone who was raised Southern Baptist, I can tell you that there is no possible way that they created Messianic Judaism!

 

[SonWorshipper]

As was said, it dates back to Yeshua himself. This is a continuation of True Judaism, even though many will argue that, this is what I heard over and over at the Messiah 2003 conference.

That Messianic Judaism is the true Judaism as the L-rd himself started back with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and continued this on in refinement with Moses at the Mountain.

 

[okeydokey]

From what was explained to me about messianic judaism vs christianity in a thread I started called " excuse my ignorance", I think messianic judaism is NOT a fraud. Seems perfectly valid to follow practices in the old testament and believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I am a christian, I do not follow the old testament strictly but still, Jesus is the messiah, the fullfillment of the old testament for me also. I see no reason to have conflict between messianic judaism and basic christianity. Believing Jesus as messiah and having faith are at the least the most important. So, try not to be swayed by those people.

 

[Ruhama]

Simchat, what a great post. Thanks for sharing.

Jase - what you're experiencing is typical, very typical treatment - rejection from outsiders, rejection from fellow Jews and doubt from family members who think you've lost your senses. I wish it weren't so but it's something you're definitely not alone in.

MJ isn't something invented - sheesh, what a silly idea. There've been plenty of Jewish "messiahs" that someone or other believed in - Bar Kochba, Shabbatai Tzvi for example - and Jesus is one of them. Were those movements made up by gentiles? No. MJ isn't either.

People seem to believe that gentile Christians made up MJ as a way to convert the Jews. I think a lot of that comes from (a) mere prejudices against anything that whiffs of Jesus and (b) vigorous efforts by anti-missionary organizations that actually make this claim (saying that Christians believe the Second Coming can't come until 144K Jews believe in Jesus).

 

[Reuven]

Shalom Jase,
I'm new to this forum so I hope this gets to you.
Have you ever heard of Natzrim Judaism? It seems to me that MJ-ism is already branching out into strands like the different sects of Judaism and thousands of denominations of x-ianity.
Good day, Reuven.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

Sorry so late... but you could always just tell them that Jesus was a Jewish guy... and that He said the following:

John*4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Rom*1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Woodsy]

Anyway, on an atheist message board I witness to, they keep bringing up that Messianic Judaism is a creation of Southern Baptists, and they call me a disgrace to real Judaism

Why is it that atheist Jews feel they can judge Jews who believe in Christ? It's maddening!

 

[Athanasian Creed]

As a former employee of Jews for Jesus here in Toronto (2nd largest Jewish population in North America) for almost 2.5 years - a Gentile believer in Jesus as Messiah of Israel and Saviour of the world i must take exception of the accusation that J4J is "hardly a Messianic organization, made up of mostly Gentiles and anti-Messianic as far as observing Messianic Judaism is concerned" (paraphrasing but the gist of the accusation is covered in the quote)

It was through my employment in J4J that i was able to witness to a few Jewish ppl wanting to know more about "Messianic Judaism" My faith as a Gentile believer was enriched as a result of discovering the Jewish roots of the Christian faith. I can tell you FIRST hand that ALL of their missionaries ARE Jewish believers - only behind the scenes personnel can be Gentile. All of the branch directors that i met were Jewish (and i met most if not all from North America) and considered themselves Jewish to the core (completed Jews because they had a personal relationship with the God of Israel thru Jesus the Messiah ) I had the privilege to met Moishe Rosen who had changed his name to Moishe after his conversion to Christ much like Saul/Paul. He is an ordained Baptist (as far as i know NOT Southern Baptist) minister. I met him several times and had wonderful fellowship with him. All of them celebrated the Jewish holidays, their sons were circumcised, their children Bar/Bat Misvah'd (sp) and their hope was in the restoration of Israel under Jesus the Messiah !

As for other legalistic observances, didn't Paul have something to say about all these things being a shadow, that all things find completion in Christ (Romans, Galations) Let each man/woman live their lives unto God as individuals who will THEMSELVES answer to God one day as to what they observed and what they didn't.

My .02 cents worth,


Ray


P.S. Isn't is strange that an atheistic Jew remains a Jew despite not believing in the God of Israel yet a Messianic Jew is no longer considered a Jew but an outcast by his family and fellow Jews ??!!

 

[simchat_torah]

Why is it that atheist Jews feel they can judge Jews who believe in Christ? It's maddening!

Aye. It is my most frustrating paradox.

 

[Woodsy]

Shalom Jase,
I'm new to this forum so I hope this gets to you.
Have you ever heard of Natzrim Judaism? It seems to me that MJ-ism is already branching out into strands like the different sects of Judaism and thousands of denominations of x-ianity.
Good day, Reuven.

I believe that Messianic Judaism is growing and maturing. I do believe that its earliest manifestations seemed like "Jews who were Christians but still Jews."
As the movement matures, it seems that more and more people with a good background in Judaism and Biblical history are helping us to see more clearly what the beliefs and practices of the earliest Jewish followers of Yeshua might actually have been.
I myself am finding that this is going to take much more work than I thought it was going to. There is so much church history and dogma to wade through, as well as questionable scholarship on both sides of the aisle. Not to mention the hostility that seems to come up (even on thsi board) when any mention of keeping Torah is made.

 

[simchat_torah]

The last J4J pulbication I received was around the Christmas Holidays...

Havurah
-December 2002 - Kislev - Tevet Av 5763
Volume 5, Number 4.

In my last newsletter from Jews for J-sus (darn, I don't even know how in the world I got onto that mailing list... sigh) there were three main articles in the pamphlet. The first article was strikingly similar to a quote from another thread in this forum, "Reform, Conservative or Orthodox Judaism, ...despite their many differences, share an active disbelief in our Messiah. Close identification with... any of these groups would be unbiblical." This first article went on to discuss how 'we as messianics' need to reject any of the writings of the sages, the rabbis of the past, and anything resembling jewish scholarship because these groups (aka, orthodox, chassidic, conservative, ect.) reject the messiah.
In fact, the article went on to boldly announce that Y'shua rejected any title of 'rabbi' because Y'shua disagreed and combatted the theology of the Rabbis of his day.

First article: Question Authority
author: Moshe Rosen
-founder of Jews for J-sus

excerpt:

Jesus never accepted this role (of Rabbi). He did not quote other sages and rabbis as was the custom. He quoted God's Word and explained things in His own words from His unique perspective.

can be found at: jfjonline.org/pub/havurah/05-04dec02/question.htm

One word: psuedoscholarship


Nearly every parable Y'shua taught was borrowed from previous sages, nearly every teaching was handed down from another Rabbi... and to top it all off.. the NT itself heralds Y'shua as Rabbi!!!

This article makes me sick. oy vey.

The second article went on to discuss how Christmas was the most Jewish holiday of the year, and is much greater than any of the Torah based holidays found in Leviticus, as it celebrates the coming of G-d to the earth. In fact, they stated that MJ's have over emphasized Passover and now need to put a greater emphasis on Christmas. (I don't want to be near them when judgement day comes... lol)


Second Article: Christmas is still a Jewish Holiday
author: Ruth Wardell
-no idea who she is, but from her 'authoritative' perspective and statements, probably someone quite influential in Jews for J-sus. She made a plea to the "messianics" on a whole scale level to stop emphasizing the 'leviticus feasts' and start emphasizing "christmas, the holiest of all jewish holidays"

excerpt:

Perhaps, in our ministry years ago, we didn't do as much as we could to emphasize Jewish traditions. However, today I feel that we have perhaps swung the pendulum too far today in the other direction. Often we have left out what may be the most meaningful Jewish holy day—the celebration of Messiah's birth.

So, here they are blatantly enforcing the paganized man made religious observance over Torah founded holy days. (wow... I am in utter lack of amazement). All too typical of J4J.

this can be found at: jfjonline.org/pub/havurah/05-04dec02/question.htm

Finally, the last article was written by a lady who used to be Jewish but had converted to christianity. She talked about how it was such a struggle for her to watch her husband hang ornaments on the christmas tree each year, but finally this year she found the strength to join in this family celebration.

ornament article:
jfjonline.org/pub/havurah/05-04dec02/ornament.htm


So... Athanasian Creed, you want to defend this? You actually want to defend J4J as a legit form of Judaism... or MJ'ism?

I'm sorry, but this is blatantly christianity with a flavor of Jewishness tossed in the mix.

And if ever I have a chance to meet Moishe Rosen face to face I would scold him for his lack of scholarship and for deceiving so many jews into turning thier backs on Torah and chasing paganism.

J4J is nearly the sole reason why Jews today are so harsh towards messianics. MJ's today have the most difficult time surviving in a synagouge or witnessing to their Jewish friends/relatives because of the "work" J4J has done.


Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

The damage Rosen and J4J have caused is irrepairable. We can thank J4J for closing the doors world wide to the Messianic movement to the Jewish community.

I'm sorry, but that's the plain flat out truth.

I know it will upset some folks because it's so blunt, but to defend J4J is one thing, but to call it a legitimate form of Judaism (or messianic judaism) is another and I won't stand for it.

-Yafet.

 

[Woodsy]

Good posts, simchat_torah.

 

[simchat_torah]

Ha, Tribe, I just saw your profile.... that's a pretty cool gif.

Anyway, you're going to school? where at?

If you don't want to say publically drop me a line at simchat_Torah@hotmail.com
we can chat a bit.

shalom,
Yafet.