Messiah and the Covenant

Clare73 · Jun 22, 2012

visionary said:
All things must be fulfilled... but no where can you find all of it fulfilled with His first coming.

The Law was fulfilled and set aside (Heb 7:18-19).

That's why both Peter (Gal 3:12, 14; Ac 11:2-3) and Paul (Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Tim 4:4; Heb 9:10)
no longer observed the food laws.

tzadik · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
Only the Law had to be fulfilled in order for the Law to disappear.

Did Messiah 'fulfill' all the commandments related to:

Women?
Levitical Priesthood?
Marriage?
Parenting?
Purification?
Agriculture?

If not, does that mean that none of the above have "disappeared"?
Are they still applicable today?

tzadik · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
That's why both Peter (Gal 3:12; Ac 11:2-3) and Paul (Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Tim 4:4; Heb 9:10) no longer observed the food laws.

I would LOVE for you to show me ONE instance where Peter, Paul or ANY other believer ate ANYTHING unkosher.

No need to put up assumptive verses. We have and will continue showing you how each and every single one of the above verses is incorrectly interpreted.

Its impossible for you or anybody else to show me any indication that they ever had any of the items that God deemed un-food and detestable.

It simply does not exist.

Clare73 · Jun 22, 2012

tzadik said:
You seem to suggest that the 'abolishing of the Old covenant' has ANYTHING to do with God's standard of righteousness (God's Torah, the revelation of His will)

What does that (abolishing the Old Covenant) have to do with the Torah of God that not only transcends all covenants, but ironically, contains MOST of the covenants made by God and men.

Last time I checked, even the New Covenant will have the Torah of God, this time to be written on the hearts and minds.

[ps: I know how much many Christians want to explain away the Torah of God in Jeremiah 31:34 to mean..something OTHER than the TORAH of God, but its Scripturally impossible. The Torah to be written on the hearts and mind is the ONE AND ONLY Standard of righteousness of Adonai!

There is no "Torah" in my Bible.

The Sinaitic covenant was based on the Mosaic Law.
The new priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11) necessarily changed the law (Heb 7:12), setting the law aside (Heb 7:18),
in favor of the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2; Jas 2:8), which is love (Ro 13:8-10),
and the law of Christ is the law which the people of God are now under instead of the law of Moses.

The law of Christ upholds the law of Moses (Ro 13:8-10), with a major difference between the two--there is no curse
for keeping it imperfectly, as there was with the law of Moses (Gal 3:10; Dt 27:26).

You cannot separate the Mosaic Law from its curse for not observing it perfectly. That is how it was established by God.
That is why the people of God are now under the law of Christ instead of the law of Moses.

Clare73 · Jun 22, 2012

tzadik said:
Did Messiah 'fulfill' all the commandments related to:

Women?
Levitical Priesthood?
Marriage?
Parenting?
Purification?
Agriculture?

If not, does that mean that none of the above have "disappeared"?
Are they still applicable today?

Well, according to that "logic,"
women transgressed the law when they didn't obey the laws related to the Levitical Priesthood and vice versa,

virgins transgressed the law when they didn't obey the laws related to marriage and parenting, and vice versa,

although Jesus was sinless (Jn 8:46), he transgressed the law when he didn't observe all the purification laws.

You betray the absurdity required to unseat the NT Word of God when it is not taken at its clear word.

Clare73 · Jun 22, 2012

tzadik said:
I would LOVE for you to show me ONE instance where Peter, Paul or ANY other believer ate ANYTHING unkosher.

No need to put up assumptive verses. We have and will continue showing you how each and every single one of the above verses is incorrectly interpreted.

Its impossible for you or anybody else to show me any indication that they ever had any of the items that God deemed un-food and detestable.

It simply does not exist.

The NT Word of God is clear in Gal 3:12, 14; Ac 11:2; Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Tim 4:4; Heb 9:10,

and I will not subject it to absurdity in an attempt to unseat it.

visionary · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
The Law was fulfilled and set aside (Heb 7:18-19).

That's why both Peter (Gal 3:12, 14; Ac 11:2-3) and Paul (Ro 14:14, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25; 1Tim 4:4; Heb 9:10)
no longer observed the food laws.

none of those verses state the food laws are no longer...

Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. 19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? 22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. 23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. 27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

There it states.. the vision was not about food but about Rabbinical laws that say Jews are not to associate or call Gentiles unclean or common.

ananda · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
people of God are now under the law of Christ instead of the law of Moses.

For hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps 1Pe2:21
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked. 1Jn 2:6

Where and how did Messiah walk?

visionary · Jun 22, 2012

Romans 14:14, 1 Corinthians 8:8, 1 Corinthians 10:25

The context of Romans 14 ...the commandments of God are not opinions or "doubtful disputations". Verse 14, the word "defile" has been translated as unclean, refers to meat sold of being contaminated or defiled by idols. Paul is stating that idols do not make meat unclean, as a Jew would consider it. It would like taking the Islam label of approved meat and declaring it unclean because you know that they do the Islamic prayer over it before it leaves the butcher shop.

tzadik · Jun 22, 2012

visionary said:
Romans 14:14, 1 Corinthians 8:8, 1 Corinthians 10:25

The context of Romans 14 ...the commandments of God are not opinions or "doubtful disputations". Verse 14, the word "defile" has been translated as unclean, refers to meat sold of being contaminated or defiled by idols. Paul is stating that idols do not make meat unclean, as a Jew would consider it. It would like taking the Islam label of approved meat and declaring it unclean because you know that they do the Islamic prayer over it before it leaves the butcher shop.

Correct.
The word koinos = uncommon and not unclean.
Talk about a biased, erroneous translation of a simple Greek word, to distort the passage.

tzadik · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
Well, according to that "logic,"
women transgressed the law when they didn't obey the laws related to the Levitical Priesthood and vice versa,

virgins transgressed the law when they didn't obey the laws related to marriage and parenting, and vice versa,

Excellent observation.

Everytime you do something that is against God’s will, you are transgressing God’s Word!

Clare73 said:
although Jesus was sinless (Jn 8:46), he transgressed the law when he didn't observe all the purification laws

100% absurd. Messiah observed EVERY SINGLE commandment that applied to Him.
I think it’s time you study the non-difference between SIN + TRANSGRESSION. They are ONE and the SAME.
You can’t be sinless, but still transgress!

Clare73 said:
You betray the absurdity required to unseat the NT Word of God when it is not taken at its clear word.

No clue what you are talking about.

But you have yet to answer my question.
If Messiah did not physically keep all the laws, how can you say that the Law has disappeared?

tzadik · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
There is no "Torah" in my Bible.

Do you read, interpret, study and teach only the English translation of your Bible?
Whenever you get a chance, look up the Hebrew word for law/instructions in Gen 26:5/Exodus 16:28

Clare73 said:
The Sinaitic covenant was based on the Mosaic Law.

The Sinaic Covenant was based on the Law of God.

Clare73 said:
The new priesthood of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11) necessarily changed the law (Heb 7:12), setting the law aside (Heb 7:18), in favor of the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2; Jas 2:8), which is love (Ro 13:8-10), and the law of Christ is the law which the people of God are now under instead of the law of Moses.

Children of God are instructed to follow the Law of that God.
Children of God are NOT instructed to follow any laws different than the Law of God.

In fact if ANY prophet comes and speaks or teaches ANYTHING against the commandments of God, that prophet is a false prophet, deserving DEATH!

I would think by now Deuteronomy 13:1-5 would have SOME effect on your posts

1. "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
2. and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, `Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
3. you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4. "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
5. "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

I guess not?

ananda · Jun 22, 2012

tzadik said:
Messiah observed EVERY SINGLE commandment that applied to Him. I think its time you study the non-difference between SIN + TRANSGRESSION. They are ONE and the SAME. You cant be sinless, but still transgress!

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.1Jn 3:4

tzadik · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
The law of Christ upholds the law of Moses (Ro 13:8-10), with a major difference between the two--there is no curse
for keeping it imperfectly, as there was with the law of Moses (Gal 3:10; Dt 27:26).

The Law of Messiah upholds the Law of God? Not sure I follow

Clare73 said:
You cannot separate the Mosaic Law from its curse for not observing it perfectly. That is how it was established by God. That is why the people of God are now under the law of Christ instead of the law of Moses.

Interesting.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 3:36 seems to tell us that unless you obey Messiah youre not getting Eternal Life.
Howz that for a disobedience curse?

JLB777 · Jun 22, 2012

netzarim said:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.1Jn 3:4

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:1-8

...everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

In your opinion does purifying yourself mean ceremonial washing according to the Law of Moses? See Numbers 19:12

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness...

Does committing sin mean eating pork?

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

If a man and woman commits adultery, is it our responsibility to put them to death according to the Law of Moses? Leviticus 20:10

10 The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

JLB

ananda · Jun 22, 2012

JLB777 said:
In your opinion does purifying yourself mean ceremonial washing according to the Law of Moses? See Numbers 19:12

Yes indeed. We must, of course, consider the fact that there is no physical Temple, and the priesthood is absent. We have no ashes of a red heifer for the water of separation. This particular law is, in my opinion, unenforceable today for those reasons. It is incumbent upon YHWH to restore His Temple (and thus His priesthood, etc.) before we can adequately obey this particular commandment.

Now, with that said, we must (and can) also purify ourselves by:

trusting - when we obeying the truth through the Spirit (1Pet 1:22, Jn 15:3, Jn 17:17);
by repentance (Isa 1:16, Eze 18:31, etc.);
and by obedience - by avoiding sin (1Jn 3:1-9).

It all goes back to Torah and YHWH & Messiah's Way of salvation: ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience.

Does committing sin mean eating pork?

If you mean "is eating pork/shellfish/etc. a sin?", then, yes indeed. This is a commandment which we can obey today.

The swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you. Lev 11:7,8
the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase. Deu 14:8
For, behold, YHWH will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will YHWH plead with all flesh: and the slain of YHWH shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith YHWH. Isa 66:15-17

If a man and woman commits adultery, is it our responsibility to put them to death according to the Law of Moses? Leviticus 20:10

No. This is the responsibility of the judges who sit in the seat of Moses (Ex 18:19-24, Deu 16:18) who judge according to Torah. There are no such judges today; again, it is incumbent upon YHWH to reinstitute this system of justice. Finally, YHWH Himself is the final Judge, (Isa 33:22, etc.), and anything which has not been judged according to Torah, He will in the end.

JLB777 · Jun 22, 2012

again, it is incumbent upon YHWH to re-institute this system of justice.

You will have a wonderful opportunity to have a ringside seat in Jerusalem for the re-institution of these practices when they rebuild the last Temple.

You and all your Messianic buddies can move there and feel right at home.

JLB

Clare73 · Jun 22, 2012

visionary said:
none of those verses state the food laws are no longer...

Agreed.

Peter "lived like a Gentile, and not like a Jew" (Gal 2:14), and

Peter ate with Gentiles (Gal 2:12; Ac 10:23, 48, 11:3).

Clare73 · Jun 22, 2012

netzarim said:
For hereunto were ye called: because Messiah also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps 1Pe2:21
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked. 1Jn 2:6

Where and how did Messiah walk?

In the law of love (Mt 22:37-40), which is the law of Christ (Jas 2:8; 1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2; Ro 13:8-10).

ananda · Jun 22, 2012

Clare73 said:
Agreed. Peter "lived like a Gentile, and not like a Jew" (Gal 2:14), and Peter ate with Gentiles (Gal 2:12; Ac 10:23, 48, 11:3).

Three problems with your quotes: you don't have two first-hand witnesses (Deu 19:15), and two, even if Peter ate with Gentiles, it does not mean that he ate unclean foods, and three, even if Peter ate unclean foods, nowhere does it say that apostles are perfect - only the Master is.

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