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Message from the Dawn of time...

Michael

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Michael has a theory about God that requires the EU to be correct.

True, but so what? Lots of Christians believe in Lambda-nonsense theory, only because it agrees with their interpretation of the phrase "Let there be light". I've yet to see any cosmology theory that rules out the possibility of an intelligent creator, so whichever one I might pick, it's likely to have theistic implications as well.

He is not going to let go of his personal theory about God easily - my observations anyway.
Actually, I would. If CDM had shown up in the lab as predicted in those "tests" of their claims, I definitely would have embraced the concept. Likewise if they could demonstrate that 'space expansion', 'inflation', or dark energy has some effect on a photon in a controlled test, again, I would easily be able to accept them scaling such claims.

As it stands however, it's blatantly clear that the reason they can't get their galaxy rotation and mass models to work right is because they grossly underestimated the number of stars in a given galaxy, and because they refuse to incorporate elements of MHD theory into their rotation models. Peratt demonstrated that MHD theory *alone* would have sufficed to explain galaxy rotation patterns and galaxy mass layouts, even if they had not discovered the serious errors is their galaxy mass estimation techniques.

Losing one's faith in Lambda-CDM is a lot like losing faith in one's religion. I could never go back to the brand of 'Christianity' that I rejected as a child, just as I could never go back to Lambda-CDM, even if I eventually do embrace an expanding universe scenario.

My preference for EU/PC theory over Lambda-CDM is really more related to my preference for empirical physics over 'supernatural' claims. That's where the real 'emotional attachment' comes in at my end.
 
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Michael

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Whoops you missed this, Michael:

I didn't miss your denial-go-round routine RC, you wear it on your *sleeve*.

Who cares how many times it was cited? Did you find an error in it, yes or no?
 
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Michael

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That is a lie (perhaps excusable given the lateness), Michael.

Ya know...

I've been around the internet, debating various topic for more than 10 years now. In all that time I've never met a single individual in cyberspace who debates any topic (probably every topic) in a less ethical fashion than you do, and more irrationally than you do.

Every single one of your posts includes personal attacks, personal insults, and personal nonsense. You refuse to even educate yourself to the topic of MHD theory by actually *reading* a textbook on the topic. You therefore know *nothing* about plasma physics, yet you feel emotionally driven to debate a scientific topic that you simply do not understand. You've never read Cosmic Plasma the book that is akin to the 'Bible' of EU/PC theory, nor any other textbook on the topic of MHD theory, so you have no idea what EU/PC theory is even about.

Most atheists that debate Christians take the time to educate themselves. They typically have at least *read* the Bible for themselves. Based on my experience, they often know more about the actual content of the Bible than most 'Christians' in fact. They don't typically try to argue from a place of blind ignorance of the topic of "Christianity" as you're doing with MHD theory and EU/PC theory. Your behaviors aren't even *rational*, let alone ethical.

I asked for you to back up your assertions about the BICEP2 paper with your physical and mathematical analysis of the BICEP2 paper
Who do you think you are? I'm not obligated to bark math at your command. I see no evidence you would even begin to understand any maths related to MHD theory if I did provide it since you refuse to educate yourself on the topic of MHD theory or circuit theory as it applies to plasma physics. Talk about throwing pearls before swine! What possible good would it do to hand you math you couldn't possibly understand in the first place?

I did something *better*. I handed you the *expert* opinions of people who are actually more knowledgeable than I am on this topic. They blow your claim up big time and show the problems with trying to use WMAP to 'scrub' the Bicep2 data. You won't deal with their work anymore than you will deal with the fact you *need* plasma to get "magnetic reconnection". You wont deal with the fact that Dungey is your superior in solar physics and blows your claims about electrical discharges in plasma out of the water. You refuse to provide any reference that is external to yourself to support any of your erroneous claims.

You gave no reference to a paper that analyzed (physical or mathematically :D) any results of the BICEP2 paper.
Pure denial. Unless Bicep2 data has nothing whatseover to do with WMAP data sets, you have a *serious* problem on your hands. ;) Poor baby, you can't handle that fact either, so you went right back to your attack the messenger trick. You're pathetically ignorant of this topic, and therefore pathetically predictable when it comes to your sleazy debate tactics.

You obviously never read the paper because those experts never even mention Section 9 of the BICEP2 paper or any problems with it.
You obviously didn't spend any time trying to understand the implication of their work nor to understand how it applies to that *ridiculous* section 9 of your lambda-fiasco paper.

They do cite the BICEP 2 paper in the conclusion of the preprint - no analysis of sections 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3 or any other part of the BICEP2 paper.
They assume most readers can think for themselves RC. The fact you can't or won't is irrelevant to the problems they point out.

You are lying about the experts...
You're obviously projecting again. You failed to tell the truth about Dungey and his use of the term "electrical discharges" in solar flares, none of which required a breakdown of a dielectric. You didn't tell the truth again when you said it was impossible for electrical discharges to occur in plasma and you fibbed again when you insisted that a breakdown of a dielectric is a requirement of an "actual" discharge in plasma. Nobody but you believes that is true, which is why you are incapable of providing an *external* reference to support your false statements on that topic.

You misrepresented the facts yet again when you claimed plasma was optional in the 'magnetic reconnection' process. Wiki falsifies your claim in the very first paragraph. Somov's example included diagrams and included current (plasma) in his example. Tom Bridgman even falsified your false statements too.

There is simply no point in discussing scientific topics with you RC. You won't learn. You won't read the materials or respond to them in a logical or rational fashion. Whatever you don't wish to deal with, you simply ignore, and you go right back to your pathetic personal attacks. You can't argue the scientific aspects because you don't understand them in the first place.

Why are you here stalking me RC? What's your emotional attachment to me personally all about? Why not go play over at JREF with the rest of your clueless buddies? Why come here and display your own personal ignorance of these topics for all world to see? You're behaviors are not only illogical and irrational and based on denial, the stalking aspect is down right creepy. :(
 
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mzungu

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Who do you think you are? I'm not obligated to bark math at your command. I see no evidence you would even begin to understand any maths related to MHD theory if I did provide it since you refuse to educate yourself on the topic of MHD theory or circuit theory as it applies to plasma physics. Talk about throwing pearls before swine! What possible good would it do to hand you math you couldn't possibly understand in the first place?(
You are assuming he will not understand the math. This is the wrong way to reply to someone who is asking you to supply the math that supposedly proves your hypothesis. I have heard it said that EU does not have math. Your reply only goes to vindicate such people.

Now be a good lad and give him the math. I am very curious to see the formulas.

By the way; swine are more precious than pearls!:wave:
 
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lesliedellow

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I have heard it said that EU does not have math. Your reply only goes to vindicate such people.

You don't have to take other people's word for it:

Electric Sun theory - Electric Universe


by Melvin Cook's attempts to unify the electromagnetic and gravitational fields;

If he could really do that, he would be world famous, and in line for a Nobel Prize. It defeated poor old Einstein, but then, what did he know?
 
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Michael

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You are assuming he will not understand the math.

I've asked him many times if he's read a book on MHD theory, and he's never done it. He's never read Cosmic Plasma either. He seems to understand little or nothing about *very basic* EM field theory, like magnetic flux, magnetic attraction, and magnetic repulsion. He can't differentiate between 'magnetic reconnection' (plasma required), and ordinary magnetic flux in a vacuum. He's got some bizarre pet quirk going about some emotional need he has for a dielectric breakdown to occur in an 'actual' electrical discharge in plasma, but Dungey doesn't require one, and RC can't name anyone outside of himself that *does* require such a thing to occur.

Holy *cow*! He doesn't even grasp the *basic concepts*, so what in the world makes you think he'll understand anything at all about the math? If he's such a math hot shot, lets see him find a *specific* criticism of Alfven's work, including paper, page number and paragraph. Then I'll believe he's not just the clairvoyant physicist that stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :)

This is the wrong way to reply to someone who is asking you to supply the math that supposedly proves your hypothesis.
That paper I cited actually did demonstrate the fact that they have *no* right whatsoever to make claims about "sigma five" discoveries. They can't even be sure yet that they fully accounted for all *foreground* effects, let alone potentially a billion other sources of synchrotron radiation from spacetime.

I have heard it said that EU does not have math.
Ya, and I've heard it said that there is no evidence to support evolutionary theory too. :doh: Do you believe everything you hear without checking it out for yourself? Have you read Cosmic Plasma, or even read a half dozen of Alfven's papers for yourself yet? Have you read that paper on galaxy formation theory by Peratt yet? Have you read any of Bruce's work? Birkeland?

If you haven't done that, why would a little math from me make any difference?

Your reply only goes to vindicate such people.
Those people were wrong and utterly ignorant to start with because they're apparently just lazy, and they remain ignorant for the same reason, regardless of my answer. :)

Now be a good lad and give him the math. I am very curious to see the formulas.
Let's see how well he does dealing with the formulas I just handed him in that first public criticism of his beloved Bicep2 paper, and then I'll think about it. As it stands, it's just "busy work", just like SZ's "test" of EU proponents a few months ago. Nothing I personally say will either vindicate EU/PC theory, nor sway anyone's opinions about my personal math skills, and they aren't even relevant in the first place! It's just another red herring. Did he find any mathematical error in the GR paper on redshift that I handed him? No. Did he find any mathematical error in the first Bicep2 critique paper I provided him? No. Did he ever read Cosmic Plasma? No. Did he ever read a single textbook on the topic of MHD theory. No. Why on Earth should I bark math at his command, and what point is there in doing so if they didn't even correctly remove all the *foreground* effects?
 
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davidbilby

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Who do you think you are? I'm not obligated to bark math at your command.

When you claim that the math of other people is incorrect, fundamentally flawed and inaccurate - unless you wish to be viewed as a loony and don't care about that, generally, yes, you are obligated to do so.

So what is your physical and mathematical interpretation of the BICEP2 data? Oh wait, that's right, you don't have one, because you're just "one guy". That's ok.

But, from your statements, you've evidently had enough time to assume that the team's own interpretation is wrong, their use of the WMAP data for synchrotron contamination erroneous. The only - quite literally the only - way you could do that is to have your own synchrotron model such that you can demonstrate conditions where that would have an effect of greater than r = 0.003 (plus or minus) with the observed data set from the WMAP 7 year data set (unless you somehow have a better data set, which would be wonderful!). Can you show us it? Thanks.
 
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davidbilby

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Loop I in that paper doesn't pass through the area of sky that BICEP2 measured (it's close though), and even if it did pass right through, the effect seems like it would be considerably too weak, especially at the frequency measured in BICEP2 (150Ghz). It's also most certainly not synchrotron radiation since the frequencies are way too high.

Either way, Planck will settle things, the very cross check that Neil Turok called for. If BICEP2 is confirmed with other frequencies (the effect should be frequency independent whereas galactic loop contamination would obviously be frequency dependent), that would settle it also. Not a big concern at the moment.

It's funny that it's the core of the Physical establishment calling for calm and cross-checks in this situation, when you claim that it's blind and deaf.
 
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SkyWriting

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Actually, no, Ned. It will not be a game changer.

Theories that propose to explain ancient events do not rock anyone's world except for news junkies. There are some theories that lead to additional insights and gain traction as a source for new research. New money is always a big deal in the science-fiction writing community!

This is nowhere near a groundbreaking idea. It took two years just to create the data they wanted to find. Most likely they built the theory around some limited data and are pretending to "discover" it. You just need to follow the money.
 
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lesliedellow

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The BICEP2 team leaders did not respond to requests for comment on the new research, but upcoming observations by Planck should help settle the matter. The Planck team is currently measuring the polarisation of the CMB and is expected to report its findings in October. Unlike BICEP2, Planck observes at a range of different wavelengths. Because emissions from dust vary with wavelength, this should allow researchers to better separate out the contributions to polarised light from dust.

I wonder if you will be posting another link in October? If the Planck observations cast doubt on BICEP2, I suppose we can count on it. Otherwise there will either be not a peep out of you, or else you will be trying to rubbish the Planck observations as well.
 
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Michael

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I wonder if you will be posting another link in October? If the Planck observations cast doubt on BICEP2, I suppose we can count on it. Otherwise there will either be not a peep out of you, or else you will be trying to rubbish the Planck observations as well.

Based on your previous posdiction track record I have *no* doubt whatsoever that you folks will eventually figure out a way to fudge the numbers with metaphysics in order to get it to all work right mathematically. I would be *shocked* if you didn't fudge the numbers in fact, since you have done so *every single time*.

It never matters to you folks that your precious "predictions" related to CDM were actually *falsified* 4 straight times in the past 18 months, the shell game must continue. Here we go deflecting the conversations from all those failures in the lab by pointing to the sky with another affirming the consequent fallacy.

Never mind the fact that your "scientists" never even *bothered* to test *ordinary* B/E relationships in the lab from *ordinary* synchrotron and other sources. You simply *assume* every single polarized photon that doesn't originate in our own galaxy *must necessarily* originate from you mythical magical surface of last scattering.

Never mind the fact that *every* galaxy in the entire universe emits these same photons, it can't be that. Oh no, the mythical, magical, impotent on Earth inflation deity did it. :doh:
 
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mzungu

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Based on your previous posdiction track record I have *no* doubt whatsoever that you folks will eventually figure out a way to fudge the numbers with metaphysics in order to get it to all work right mathematically. I would be *shocked* if you didn't fudge the numbers in fact, since you have done so *every single time*.

It never matters to you folks that your precious "predictions" related to CDM were actually *falsified* 4 straight times in the past 18 months, the shell game must continue. Here we go deflecting the conversations from all those failures in the lab by pointing to the sky with another affirming the consequent fallacy.

Never mind the fact that your "scientists" never even *bothered* to test *ordinary* B/E relationships in the lab from *ordinary* synchrotron and other sources. You simply *assume* every single polarized photon that doesn't originate in our own galaxy *must necessarily* originate from you mythical magical surface of last scattering.

Never mind the fact that *every* galaxy in the entire universe emits these same photons, it can't be that. Oh no, the mythical, magical, impotent on Earth inflation deity did it. :doh:
I'm sorry you feel that way but science will not accept creationism a.k.a ID a.k.a EU! You can cry foul all you want but science cannot allow for religion to infiltrate into its realm.
 
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Michael

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I'm sorry you feel that way but science will not accept creationism a.k.a ID a.k.a EU!

You do at least recognize that there are atheistic EU/PC proponents, right?

You can cry foul all you want but science cannot allow for religion to infiltrate into its realm.
Fine. Ignore the Panentheistic overtones if that floats your boat. Either way, from the perspective of empirical physics, *either* version of EU/PC theory is *empirically better than* Lambda-magic theory.

Besides, the whole existence/prevalence of Gutheology (aka Lambda-CDM) demonstrates that religion is still alive and well in some fields of 'science'. :(
 
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Michael

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Apparently I wasn't the only one that found that last Bicep2 claim to be rather dubious:

Cosmology Turns into Pseudoscience | Get Real, Physics

In addition, the signal declared as evidence for gravitational waves, the “B-Mode polarization,” is utterly banal—polarization is (practically) a vector field and every vector field can be decomposed into “div” and “curl” parts. Cosmologists now claim that they cannot explain the origin of the curl part, but so what? Why gravitational waves? A pile of theoretical assumptions enters through the back door of this so-called observation. Hundreds of unknowns, artifacts, or dirt effects could cause such a “B-mode polarization.” To call this ‘direct observation’ (much more indirect as the already inconclusive evidence from the Taylor-Hulse pulsar) is audacious, to put it mildly.
To further the hype, they added the preposterous claim that those gravitational waves constitute evidence for the theory of inflation, an obviously nonsensical assertion that should leap to the eye of any sane researcher. How could an effect of the first 10-32 seconds be tracked over 50 orders of magnitude, to 380,000 years? Utterly absurd.
 
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mzungu

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Michael

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lesliedellow

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Michael

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That somewhat reminds me of the way creationists are apt to quote somebody like a mechanical engineer as an authority on Evolution. Here it is a neurologist who has transformed himself into an expert on astrophysics.

From your perspective, apparently the only people who are qualified to discuss astronomy are individuals who've been officially brainwashed/indoctrinated into the topic, and who've been taught to bow the the invisible, impotent on Earth Lambda-CDM deity without question. :(

You worship too many gods. :(
 
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