Mercy, not sacrifice

[Soyeong]

I'm going start by posting several Scriptures, so bear with me. From NRSV:

What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes away early.
Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets,
I have killed them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. - Hosea 6:4-6

Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God,
for you have stumbled because of your iniquity.
Take words with you
and return to the Lord;
say to him,
“Take away all guilt;
accept that which is good,
and we will offer
the fruit[a] of our lips.
Assyria shall not save us;
we will not ride upon horses;
we will say no more, ‘Our God,’
to the work of our hands.
In you the orphan finds mercy.” - Hosea 14:1-3

(Note that the Hebrew would be "bulls" rather than "fruit," which I believe is from the Septuagint.)

And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard this, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.” - Matthew 9:10-13

(Matthew has Jesus quoting the same line from Hosea 6:6 again in Matt. 12:7.)

This thread is partially inspired by a discussion invoking Hosea in another thread, different forum.

What do you think it means that God desires mercy/steadfast love, rather than sacrifice?

What sort of sacrifice did God have in mind? The blood kind?

If so, why would Jesus' death need to be understood in any way as a blood sacrifice?

If, as Hosea seems to say, we can offer "the bulls of our lips" - meaning to me, we can just repent, seek forgiveness, & it would be likened unto a sacrifice - it seems problematic to imply Jesus is needed to be a blood sacrifice.

Jesus quotes Hosea: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." In Mark 12:28-34, the scribe answers Jesus that the commandments to love God & neighbor are more important than sacrifices, & Jesus seems to approve of this answer.

If what God is looking for is not a blood sacrifice, what do we do with verses that seem to imply understanding Jesus as a blood sacrifice of sorts? (I.e. Romans 3:24-25, 1 John 4:10, Hebrews 9:11-12, etc)

Just thinking about some of these verses, & wanted to hear how you or your church tradition answers them.

Clearly God would not have commanded His people to make offerings if that was not something He wanted done, so the point being made is not that God didn't want His people to make offerings, but that the offerings themselves were not the object of what God desired, but were the means to what He what desired. The book of Exodus ended with God's glory descending on the tent of meeting and the problem of noone being able to approach and the book of Leviticus begins with God calling out instructions for how to draw near to Him. The root word for "offering" means "to draw near", so sin separates us from God and Leviticus is God's instructions for how to draw near and become reconciled to Him, not how to deprive ourselves of livestock. So the mistake is to think that what God wanted was the offering when the offering is just the means for God's people to drawn near to Him. If someone were to make an offering without repenting, drawing near to Him, and growing in a relationship with him by faith, then they were completely missing the whole point, and all they were accomplishing was just slaughtering an animal.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In fact, truthfully, Christ's sacrifice on our behalf is inherently UNjust ... why should we be let off "scot-free" as it were, just for the asking? While an innocent man is punished in our place? Even if He volunteers it? Again, it is mercy at work, rather than pure justice.

Since Scripture says somewhere that YHWH is perfectly righteous and just, perfect in judgment (a song that is from scripture years ago),

I can't comprehend if any church doctrine claims His Plan of Christ's Crucifixion, the crux of the Gospel, was unjust.

I was going to look online first, searching for "Traditional Theology" , perfect justice, perfect judgment, but expect that might take quite some time.

It was proved to me long ago that YHWH'S Plan is pure justice AND perfect mercy as well, though I never tried putting it all together before for anyone else, nor here and now -- but

hoping and expecting that somewhere in the paperwork, so to speak, someone 'knows' or can show the "Traditional Theology" position one way or the other, from their resources.

Thanks!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Since Scripture says somewhere that YHWH is perfectly righteous and just, perfect in judgment (a song that is from scripture years ago),

I can't comprehend if any church doctrine claims His Plan of Christ's Crucifixion, the crux of the Gospel, was unjust.

I was going to look online first, searching for "Traditional Theology" , perfect justice, perfect judgment, but expect that might take quite some time.

It was proved to me long ago that YHWH'S Plan is pure justice AND perfect mercy as well, though I never tried putting it all together before for anyone else, nor here and now -- but

hoping and expecting that somewhere in the paperwork, so to speak, someone 'knows' or can show the "Traditional Theology" position one way or the other, from their resources.

Thanks!

The problem is not that God is unjust - He certainly is not!

The problem is in understanding the sacrifice of Christ as fulfilling justice only, in a punitive sort of way, as though everything is built upon crime and punishment.

If you will allow yourself to stand back and honestly ask whether, for example, the concept of a "whipping boy" is just ... it was quite similar. The darling prince could not be punished, so when he did something wrong, a poor unfortunate whose "job" it was to take his punishment, was beaten in his stead. Is that justice? If we are honest with ourselves, I think we will say it is not. To understand salvation ONLY in these terms introduces the same injustice.

But no, GOD IS NOT UNJUST.

However, God is also merciful. The act of Christ's sacrifice was not primarily to fulfill justice, but rather AN ACT OF MERCY.

Christ did not only sacrifice Himself in our stead. He also defeated death, which was the curse of sin, and is the major highlight of our ability to receive eternal life. That has zero to do with "justice".

It's not that the juridical understanding is wrong - unless one assumes that God was satisfied through revenge based on Christ's SUFFERING, and/or assumes that God is incapable of "saving" us due to being subordinate to some idea of cosmic "justice" which supersedes His will) - as long as you don't believe the particular details of either of those two errors, the juridical understanding is not wrong. But it is INCOMPLETE, and is not even the most important part, and focusing on it alone, apart from the other things Christ was accomplishing at the same time, leads one into error of some degree of other (involving the understanding of God's justice) when taken to its logical end, without the other understanding.

I don't know if that helps. The problem is not that what I think you see is wrong, it is that it is incomplete. That doesn't mean I say you are unsaved (I'm not saying that at all) but that it leads to a less full view of God and what He has done for us.

It is more helpful, IMO, to consider save, sozo, in its FULL sense, which has the added meaning of being healed. God doesn't just want to wipe some cosmic ledger clean of our debt, He wants to ACTUALLY HEAL us from the effects of sin, make us forever alive in Christ, make us actually LIKE Christ, and restore us to His original intent for humanity.

It's not just paying a bill or excusing a penalty, it is complete healing and restoration of human nature. And that because of His mercy ... not so much concerned only with justice.

 

[disciple1]

I'm going start by posting several Scriptures, so bear with me. From NRSV:

What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes away early.
Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets,
I have killed them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. - Hosea 6:4-6

Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God,
for you have stumbled because of your iniquity.
Take words with you
and return to the Lord;
say to him,
“Take away all guilt;
accept that which is good,
and we will offer
the fruit[a] of our lips.
Assyria shall not save us;
we will not ride upon horses;
we will say no more, ‘Our God,’
to the work of our hands.
In you the orphan finds mercy.” - Hosea 14:1-3

(Note that the Hebrew would be "bulls" rather than "fruit," which I believe is from the Septuagint.)

And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard this, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.” - Matthew 9:10-13

(Matthew has Jesus quoting the same line from Hosea 6:6 again in Matt. 12:7.)

This thread is partially inspired by a discussion invoking Hosea in another thread, different forum.

What do you think it means that God desires mercy/steadfast love, rather than sacrifice?

What sort of sacrifice did God have in mind? The blood kind?

If so, why would Jesus' death need to be understood in any way as a blood sacrifice?

If, as Hosea seems to say, we can offer "the bulls of our lips" - meaning to me, we can just repent, seek forgiveness, & it would be likened unto a sacrifice - it seems problematic to imply Jesus is needed to be a blood sacrifice.

Jesus quotes Hosea: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." In Mark 12:28-34, the scribe answers Jesus that the commandments to love God & neighbor are more important than sacrifices, & Jesus seems to approve of this answer.

If what God is looking for is not a blood sacrifice, what do we do with verses that seem to imply understanding Jesus as a blood sacrifice of sorts? (I.e. Romans 3:24-25, 1 John 4:10, Hebrews 9:11-12, etc)

Just thinking about some of these verses, & wanted to hear how you or your church tradition answers them.

‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice

God desires mercy/steadfast love

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.