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Mehmed the Conqueror and Gennadius II

Yoder777

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This is a depiction of Mehmed's promise to Gennadius II to respect the religious rights of Orthodox Christians in the new Ottoman empire. Though I've had a great deal of resentment against the Turks for persecuting my Greek ancestors, this was mostly at the hands of the "Young Turks" who founded modern Turkey at the end of the Ottoman empire.

While Mehmed may not be considered a friend to the Orthodox, did he at least respect their right to worship as a conquered people? I know it's rather easy to feel resentment, but we must understand that it's the nature of nation-states to overtake nation-states. If you're posting on this forum, it's most likely on the land of Indian tribes that you are posting from now.

Were Orthodox Christians treated better by Mehmed than native Americans were treated by white settlers? And what are the religious rights of Christians in Turkey today?
 
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Yoder777

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Ever heard of Janisarries? Or devshirme?

Yes, I am familiar with these things. I am also tired of feeling resentment against Muslim Turks, and would like to find whatever bright spots there may be in our shared history.
 
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Yoder777

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Non sequitur

Not if you are an American and concerned about hypocrisy. Why should we, as American Orthodox Christians, feel resentment against the Turks if we did the same thing to the Indians?


Among predominately Muslim countries, is Turkey more respectful to the rights of Christians?

I understand that this topic can stir up bad feelings and I am sorry that it does. I just don't want to be resentful anymore.

When I was in college, a Turkish woman came to my history class, and during the Q and A session, I demanded she answer several times as to why the Greek and Armenian holocaust happened, as if one woman today could be responsible for the sins committed a hundred years ago. I realize now that I was wrong.

When she said that Greeks and Turks are so similar culturally that they are really like brothers who always get into fights, I realize now that she may have had a point.

Was Mehmed good for the Armenians?

Does Ewald Stadler belong to a fascist political party?
Robert Spencer Goes Bonkers for Austrian Fascist Ewald Stadler | Spencer Watch

About the murder of Bishop Luigi Padovese, the perpetrator seems to have been mentally ill:


The murderer was given a 15-year prison sentence for his crime:
Turkey: 15-year sentence for bishop's killer : News Headlines - Catholic Culture
 
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Yoder777

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I again want to say that I am sorry for bringing up a touchy subject. I honestly want to look at the shared history between Islamic Turks and Greek and Armenian Christians in as objective a way as possible, in order to at least help myself get over past resentments.

I once asked a member of my church from Turkey how he felt about the Greek genocide at the hands of the Turks, and he reminded me that a civil war between the Greeks and Turks was going on at the time, and there was killing from both sides.

Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Today, is there more peace between Orthodox Christians and Muslims?

 
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buzuxi02

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Turks are Armenians and Greeks who converted to Islam. The real Turks are a mongol tribe still found in Siberia and parts of China.

Islamic culture doesnt persecute majorities from the outset. They instead create an ambiance where conversion to Islam is the best option.

Initially you can continue to operate your own schools but cant repair them if become dilapidated. You can freely worship in your own churches but you cant have a procession outside your church.
You can avoid paying the tax, by giving up your son to be raised in the turkish military as an orphan.

A non-muslim male cannot marry a muslim woman. But a muslim male can marry an infidel woman and incentives are put in place to encourage this.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate can operate freely, but cant own or maintain its property. It cannot own a printing press. It cannot operate a seminary. It cannot legally use the word 'ecumenical' in its title. The EP must ask for special permission to travel abroad. His successor must be a turkish citizen. And his ecclesiastical status is not recognized by Turkey. The EP is simply the ethnarc of the last remaining 3000 Romans on Turkish soil.


By the way you failed to mention the persecution of the Maronites in Turkey. Actually they dont have a voice all 50,000 were exterminated in 1880.
 
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Yoder777

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Turks are Armenians and Greeks who converted to Islam. The real Turks are a mongol tribe still found in Siberia and parts of China.

Are you saying this is true for the majority of Turks? What evidence is there for this? Is is not also true that Christians have more rights in Turkey than in other Islamic countries and that the Armenian patriarchate in Turkey wasn't founded until after the rise of the Turks, when they were no longer being persecuted by the Byzantines? Is it not true that the killing between Greeks and Turks happened from both sides? About the genocide of Maronites, I am ignorant of that topic.

For what it's worth, this Turkish man from my church of Syriac ancestry plans on returning to Turkey after retirement. He doesn't feel that Christians are too persecuted to live there.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think part of the resentment is that the Turks officially refuse to recognize things like the Armenian genocide. in the US, we openly admit our own abuses like what happened to the Native Americans, slavery, etc.
 
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Y

Yeznik

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[FONT=&quot]
Not if you are an American and concerned about hypocrisy. Why should we, as American Orthodox Christians, feel resentment against the Turks if we did the same thing to the Indians?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You are comparing Apples to Oranges. The methodology that you are using falls under the modern philosophical ideologies of Reductionism. The Americans accept and to some degree tried to resolve the wrong doings of previous generations. The Turkish government offers no such resolution. They deny the fact of the Armenian Genocide. The Turkish government today is still trying to cash in on the life insurance policies of Armenians from the time of the Genocide. Also go read what happened to Hrant Dink. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So, when the Turkish government owns up to the Genocide, let’s Greeks, Syrians and Armenians open multi-billions dollar casinos (tax free), Give out land grants (to say the least) and lets them establishes nation states. Then we can start comparing. [/FONT]

I will post a comment on the other statements later.


 
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buzuxi02

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Early on the armenians were primarily under the Sassanid Empire. In the 8th century there were no armenian lands under the Empire just a colony or two, most Armenians during this time actually migrated as refugees into the empire. In fact a few of these Armenians were of a heretical sect called the Paulicians, they were persecuted less in byzantine lands.

The whole point is that the empire was very multiracial The precense of Armenian generals in the army of the byzantines was impressive. There was also emperors of armenian origins. Armenians once again came under byzantine rule in the 9th-11 centuries, where again they held prominent positions.

Establishing an armenian patriarch in Constantinople would have been uncanonical as there is a canonical patriarchate alrady established.

The Turks gave them a Patriarchate not because they needed one but because to manipulate and cause tensions between the two religious communities. The title 'Patriarch' was legally established by Justinian to denote the largest centers of Chalcedonian christianity within the empire. Under the turkish yoke establishing some new legal status fr an ecclesiaistical group didnt matter, nor did it mean anything.
 
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Yoder777

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I think part of the resentment is that the Turks officially refuse to recognize things like the Armenian genocide. in the US, we openly admit our own abuses like what happened to the Native Americans, slavery, etc.

At least between the Greeks and Turks, the mass slaughter was between both sides. There was a civil war at the time.
 
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Yoder777

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I will post a comment on the other statements later.

Please do so. I've made some very important points and I appreciate your perspective. I am honestly trying to learn more about these issues from a variety of perspectives. Is it not true that the Turks, at least initially, gave the Armenians more freedom than the Byzantines did?

Even though we are discussing a "hot button" issue, I am being very careful to not use a polemical tone, and I am sorry if I've offended anyone.

 
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ArmyMatt

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At least between the Greeks and Turks, the mass slaughter was between both sides. There was a civil war at the time.

yeah I know there is bad blood and such, my point was the outright denial of the death of over a million people. I imagine that if we did that with the Native Americans, or the Germans did it about their untermenchen, etc, the world would throw a fit, and rightfully so.
 
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buzuxi02

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The majority of turks are not mongols. In the late 1800's almost 40% of turkey's population were christian. Turks are the janisseries of christian parents and the rest are converts to Islam mostly greeks and armenians (but some are of other Orthodox origins). This is a fact. The grand mosques of Instanbul was built by a Orthodox christian of serbian origin who had to convert.

I know a pilgrim who stayed in a bed and breakfast in Turkey. When she told the turkish owner she was Greek Orthodox. He told her the house was built and passed down by his descendants for centuries. He removed a rug where there was a mosaic floor with greek inscriptions. It was probably original built by the man's greek-christian descendants as family chapel.
 
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Yoder777

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I think that, as a condition of joining the EU, Turkey should recognize what happened. At the same time, there should perhaps be admissions and apologies from all sides.

 
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Yoder777

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I am not saying you are wrong but I would honestly like to see scholarly evidence for this. If the majority of Turks are not of Mongol origin, how were they converted to Islam?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think that, as a condition of joining the EU, Turkey should recognize what happened. At the same time, there should perhaps be admissions and apologies from all sides.

I think that is actually one of the things on the table, as well as the return of Hagia Sophia. and yeah, mutual forgiveness always helps.
 
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Yoder777

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I think that is actually one of the things on the table, as well as the return of Hagia Sophia. and yeah, mutual forgiveness always helps.

I do find it a little silly and hypocritical when Westerners chant "Free Tibet!" without ever mentioning Constantinople. Why mention one without the other? The Dalai Lama has given up on demanding statehood for Tibet, and instead just wants the persecution to end. Shouldn't Christians in Istanbul be given the same rights?
 
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ArmyMatt

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definitely a good point
 
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