Medical Miracle

[FaithLikeARock]

There is a reason for everything. Putting something down as a miracle is just lazy thinking, and shows me more than anything, that you haven't really got much appreciation of the natural world or much motivation to learn.

Not everything has a reason. I would like to think that too, especially about people. I would like to think that everyone has a reason for why they do things. I would like to think that everything that happens in the world happens for a reason. But it isn't that simple.

Besides, a miracle is the notion that "coincidences" don't happen for no reason. They happen because of a spiritual intention. Something that we can't explain that happens because God willed it. That's the point. We aren't supposed to question why. I know why it happened for my mom. I'm here aren't I? But past that, I don't know. I don't want to know.

People like to know things. It makes us feel secure. Even the most faithful person won't jump off a cliff in the name of God. Because they don't know what will happen. They know that if they don't that they'll stay standing on the cliff. If they do, they can't be sure. If they'll live, if they'll die, if they'll be injured. People say that God is a crutch. Maybe he is. But I think information can be a crutch too. Knowledge. I can see what knowledge does to people. It isn't a bad thing. But the story of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, isn't just a story about the beginning of sin. That fruit was the start. When we know things, we feel self-assured. I do. I like knowing that my chair isn't going to fall out from underneath me. I like knowing that I don't have to go to school tomorrow. It makes me comfortable.

With God, you don't know. The point of a miracle is you don't expect it. And that scares people. It makes them want to know how it happened or why. You don't need to know. You just need to live it out. I agree. People who pray for miracles are silly. You don't pray for things to happen. You pray that God will do whatever He has planned. In the end He's going to anyway. And then you live out whatever He has let happen.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Speak for yourself, it's quite easy for me to grasp that there has always been something, otherwise I wouldn't be having this conversation with you!

That sounds very Christian orthodox. The Logos.

From what I understand, Ex-Nihilo (out of nothing) is something Christian's believe.

Yes, but not just a pat answer. But then again, God wouldn't be easy in any case, to understand easily.

Rather, Who started time. t=0. (which has the two opposing sides http://www.counterbalance.net/rjr/at-body.html)

Here's a decent Humanist perspective: http://www.philoonline.org/library/morriston_5_1.htm

A glimpse:

[/quote]Craig (William Kane) has claimed that it is obvious—so obvious that no honest and rational person could fail to agree—that nothing can begin to exist without a cause.20 But as far as I can see, the need for a material cause is exactly on a par with the need for an efficient cause. To see this, consider the following “stories” that might be offered to explain the coming into existence of a house.
Story 1. There was no lumber, no nails, no bricks, no mortar, no building materials of any kind. But there was a builder. One day, the builder said, “Five, four, three, two, one, Let there be a house!” And there was a house.
Story 2. There was no builder, but there were lumber, nails, bricks, mortar, and other necessary building materials. One day, these materials spontaneously organized themselves into the shape of a house.
I do not see that Story 1 is in any way superior to Story 2. Both stories are incompatible with our experience of the way the world works. Both are deeply counter-intuitive. The fact is that a house needs both an efficient and a material cause.
Admittedly, the universe is not a house. But as far as I can see, the universe is at least as much (or as little) in need of a material as of an efficient cause. Let us suppose, then, that Craig is right in thinking that the causes (if any) of the universe would have to be timeless. And let us suppose further that he is right in thinking that—although we have never encountered a timeless person—we must postulate one as the efficient cause of the universe. Why, then, would it not be equally appropriate to postulate a timeless material cause?
I do not have a candidate for the timeless material cause of the universe. The only “stuffs” with which we are familiar are this-worldly materials, all of which exist in time. But it is equally true that the only persons with which we are familiar are this-worldly persons, and all of them exist in time. My question, then, seems perfectly reasonable. If we follow Craig in postulating a timeless person as the efficient cause of the whole natural order, why should we not also postulate a timeless “stuff” as the material cause of the universe?
It might occur to someone to object that the material cause of the universe couldn’t be timeless because it is a part or an aspect of the universe, and because every such part or aspect is temporal. The material cause of the universe (if there were one) wouldn’t just disappear after creation. It would remain within the physical universe—as the stuff of which it continues to be “made.” If there were a material cause of the universe, it would necessarily have temporal duration.
Perhaps. But even if this is so, it is not an adequate defense of Craig’s position. For it fails to demonstrate a clear difference with respect to temporality between a timeless efficient cause and a timeless material cause. Craig, it will be recalled, holds that the efficient cause of the universe is timeless only sans the universe. When God created the universe, Craig thinks that he also placed himself within time. Assuming that this makes sense, we may ask why God could not also have placed a timeless material cause within time (and the universe). The “stuff” of which the universe is made would then be timeless sans the universe. But when he created a universe with a beginning in time, we may suppose that God put this same “stuff” into time. At the point of creation, so to speak, both the material and the efficient cause of the universe enter time.[/quote]

And a decent Christian perspective:

http://www.gotquestions.org/creation-ex-nihilo.html

"Ex nihilo" is Latin for "from nothing." The term "creation ex nihilo" refers to God creating everything from nothing. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Prior to that moment there was nothing. God didn’t make the universe from preexisting building blocks. He started from scratch.

 

[truthshift]

Hmm, yet you hear atheists depend so much on the educated elite.



It is impossible to refute creationism.

Do the math.



Oh really. We see moths that become toads do we? We see Dolphins growing scissored fins to cut their way out of nets?



Just to use our God given powers of reason.



I'm not and you know it.



The Big Bang "theory?" As in the "theory" of evolution? That kind of a theory?



I just thought I'd raise your Bible contradictions with some atheism contradictions that's all.



I believe that I have actually heard a doctor or two say "It's a miracle" several times in regards to their patient. What right to you have, what evidence to consider them a liar?



I do not believe God tests many people at all.



The reality of life.



Bravo Eric. But I have come to this certainty by much logic, reason and testing.

As in my opinion of atheism. I am certain it is nonsense. Literally.

Wow you've posted quite a doozy.

1. Yes, Atheists often do depend on the educated elite. However, as you know there are many specialized fields of study. An intelligent person would not ask a physicist what to do about their genital warts. Do you really clump all intelligent people into one category?

2. How is it impossible to refute creationism? Maybe for you. What math? show me the math! I want to see it, honestly. If there is some simple equation showing that there is no other possibility other than creationism, you'd think it'd be discussed, thought about, and verified by now. Also, I surely would have heard of said math in my 18 years as a Christian.

3. If you're going to play the game of extremes, then fine. You know as well as I do, moths are not evolving into toads. Did you have a good time thinking of the most extreme polar opposites in the animal kingdom? Darwin observed a change in beak size in bird species along with evolution that we see happen in bacteria regularly. Evolution is proven fact. It happens. Whether we come from it is in question. However, most evidence points to that and it is very reasonable to assume that we evolved as well.

4. Use my powers of reason? To what end? I asked why that would be necessary and you couldn't provide reasoning for it. You didn't even make it remotely clear as to what you were getting at.

5. Yeah, you're not? How does it relate then? Make a link between the ideals we're discussing and show me why its related. Maybe then it wouldn't be changing the subject.

6. What do you mean "what kind of theory?" A theory is a proposed set of ideals that is supported by evidence and not yet proven. Kind of like the theory of "creationism" which, has little to no evidence, but we still honor it with the title of theory. What's your point? If you needed to know what a theory is, you could have looked it up.

7. What atheistic contradictions? There are none to my knowledge. If you see them, show me.

8. Yeah, I've heard lots of doctors say that too. I've also heard lots of other people say that. That doesn't mean they have evidence. Just because they can't explain what happened, doesn't mean they have evidence for a miracle. Medical science has been developing for all of human history and continues to do so because we do not know everything yet.

9. Highway man mentioned that it is a persons purpose on earth to be tested before heaven. Are you saying that God only tests some people now? You contradicting his statement shows me that you don't even have your own beliefs in order.

10. That comment was made on the basis that if you are unshakable in your faith, how can you be tested. You happily omitted that part of course.

11. Your logic is flawed, your reasoning is based on that logic, and what tests have you done?

 

[Verv]

Wow you've posted quite a doozy.

1. Yes, Atheists often do depend on the educated elite. However, as you know there are many specialized fields of study. An intelligent person would not ask a physicist what to do about their genital warts. Do you really clump all intelligent people into one category?

Educated... Maybe... Elite? The guys who spend their lives in colleges. Interesting.

3. If you're going to play the game of extremes, then fine. You know as well as I do, moths are not evolving into toads. Did you have a good time thinking of the most extreme polar opposites in the animal kingdom? Darwin observed a change in beak size in bird species along with evolution that we see happen in bacteria regularly. Evolution is proven fact. It happens. Whether we come from it is in question. However, most evidence points to that and it is very reasonable to assume that we evolved as well.

Microevolution may exist but there is a lot of criticism of the idea of macroevolution.

And regardless -- for most Christians this has absolutely no bearing on our beliefs.

Why would someone dismiss Christianity if they believed in evolution? That's like no longer cheering for the New York Giants because you just became a New York Yankees fan.

8. Yeah, I've heard lots of doctors say that too. I've also heard lots of other people say that. That doesn't mean they have evidence. Just because they can't explain what happened, doesn't mean they have evidence for a miracle. Medical science has been developing for all of human history and continues to do so because we do not know everything yet.

Does a miracle require evidence?

Is a miracle only constituted by a supernatural occurrence, or do situations of extreme coincidence make sense as miracles as well?

9. Highway man mentioned that it is a persons purpose on earth to be tested before heaven. Are you saying that God only tests some people now? You contradicting his statement shows me that you don't even have your own beliefs in order.

Did you really just say that because he contradicted the statement of another Christian whom he may not disagree with "He doesn't even have his own beliefs in order."

You, sir, are simply grasping at straws!

"Dude, you contradicted a different person's statement! RAther than this being evidence that you may disagree with the other person on a topic I am going to accuse you of NOT HAVING YOUR BELIEFS STRAIGHT!"

10. That comment was made on the basis that if you are unshakable in your faith, how can you be tested. You happily omitted that part of course.

The question is how one becomes unshakable in their case and from there what we do with our lives, I guess; some of us may be here after a point merely to aid others.

 

[truthshift]

Educated... Maybe... Elite? The guys who spend their lives in colleges. Interesting.



Microevolution may exist but there is a lot of criticism of the idea of macroevolution.

And regardless -- for most Christians this has absolutely no bearing on our beliefs.

Why would someone dismiss Christianity if they believed in evolution? That's like no longer cheering for the New York Giants because you just became a New York Yankees fan.




Does a miracle require evidence?

Is a miracle only constituted by a supernatural occurrence, or do situations of extreme coincidence make sense as miracles as well?



Did you really just say that because he contradicted the statement of another Christian whom he may not disagree with "He doesn't even have his own beliefs in order."

You, sir, are simply grasping at straws!

"Dude, you contradicted a different person's statement! RAther than this being evidence that you may disagree with the other person on a topic I am going to accuse you of NOT HAVING YOUR BELIEFS STRAIGHT!"



The question is how one becomes unshakable in their case and from there what we do with our lives, I guess; some of us may be here after a point merely to aid others.

1. The same way that we see minor geological changes, such as the sea level rising 1 foot a year or Mt. Everest rising a few inches every couple of years combined with every other geological movement we can observe, we have learned how the tectonic plates have shifted over the millennia. The same goes for evolutionary processes. Yes, we have only been able to observe microcosmic examples of evolution in the timespan we've had to study it, but it's conclusive enough to reasonably theorize that all life has evolved dramatically over the course of many years. We can't say for sure, thats why it remains a theory and no one should be able to justifiably say that they _know_ evolution or creation or any other theory is the answer. I don't know why one would have to dismiss evolution if they were christian, except that it said very specifically how people were created in the bible. The two don't match up.

2. That depends on what evidence is. No, certainly, one would think that a miracle does not need evidence. But to call something a miracle without evidence is to take a stab in the dark. No one can know. Anyone who claims to know is making unfounded claims. For us to recognize it as a miracle, there should indeed be evidence. Until then it's a coincidence. They happen to everyone and not just to christians. Why would we be prompted to consider anything as a miracle of god unless we had a pre-existing bias to do so? I'm sure many muslims attribute these happenings to their god as well.

3. Yes, I really did just say that. Given that you're all reading the same book, the same words and yet there are no less than 33,000 protestant denominations and belief systems alone, all based on the same exact text, shows that, although you all claim to have found the truth, to know God, and be christian, only 1 of you can be truly right. This fact, in itself, does very little to lend to the bibles legitimacy.

So yes, he did contradict what the other person was saying because you should all be believing the same thing if you're all following the same word of God.

4. My point remains: If you are unshakable, how are you tested? If you were to ask any christian right now if they would consider alternatives to their beliefs, they would all say no because they are 100% sure that theirs is the truth. If they are 100% sure and will not change their mind for any reason, then how are they tested? They're already saved and going to heaven, already 100% locked into their beliefs and will not budge, but are here to be tested. What is the purpose? Whence commeth the test?

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Amputation does not end a person's life.

Furthermore, if God provided such obvious evidence as the regeneration of limbs for those who were prayed Christian prayers it would also begin reflecting undeniable proof of the Christian God, thus defeating the purpose of us even being here and being tested by God.

hardly, It might provide evidence that one versioun of the god might be real but still youd have to figure out which one he is. And what exactly is this purpose? We would not lose free will and still could do "good" or " evil"

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Wow you've posted quite a doozy.

I just thought it was standard reply stuff.

1. Yes, Atheists often do depend on the educated elite. However, as you know there are many specialized fields of study. An intelligent person would not ask a physicist what to do about their genital warts. Do you really clump all intelligent people into one category?

I'd rather ask a physicist than a voodoo priest though. But, it seems to me, that "you guys" go out of your way to come up with lists of educated people that embrace atheism and discard all the many, many, many educated people that believe in God. Sometimes the majority is right.

2. How is it impossible to refute creationism? Maybe for you.

It is why I left my atheist belief system. Too much example of creation for me to doubt it anymore. Free thinker from start to finish. That's me. Freethinker, is too rote for my taste.

What math? show me the math!

0 x 0 = idiocy. No matter how you slice non godianism, you can't escape physics wagging its head at it.

I want to see it, honestly. If there is some simple equation showing that there is no other possibility other than creationism, you'd think it'd be discussed, thought about, and verified by now.

Atheists won't allow the debate in academia. For now. But suffice it to say, the lunacy that all of everything came from nothing is laughable.

Also, I surely would have heard of said math in my 18 years as a Christian.

What kind of Christian? there's lots of brands. Some do not like study and questioning things. I reject that too.

3. If you're going to play the game of extremes, then fine. You know as well as I do, moths are not evolving into toads. Did you have a good time thinking of the most extreme polar opposites in the animal kingdom?

You guys have millions of them. Thinking up all of them is kind of tough.

Darwin observed a change in beak size in bird species along with evolution that we see happen in bacteria regularly. Evolution is proven fact.

Oh no you didn't. Darwins finches? THEY ARE STILL BIRDS SIR! C'mon, I have a stomch ache from the last side splitting comedy like this I read.

It happens.

Chimps are petitioning the ACLU for freedom from the rights being violated in the jungle? Is that on Youtube yet?

Whether we come from it is in question.

I heard a PhD once use the word "duh." It was completely appropriate. As in right now.

However, most evidence points to that and it is very reasonable to assume that we evolved as well.

Ok, you go with that. I'm taking another path. I have to. I like to think my way through life.

4. Use my powers of reason? To what end? I asked why that would be necessary and you couldn't provide reasoning for it. You didn't even make it remotely clear as to what you were getting at.

5. Yeah, you're not? How does it relate then? Make a link between the ideals we're discussing and show me why its related. Maybe then it wouldn't be changing the subject.

Didn't I? I thought i linked even a humanist org.

6. What do you mean "what kind of theory?" A theory is a proposed set of ideals that is supported by evidence and not yet proven. Kind of like the theory of "creationism" which, has little to no evidence, but we still honor it with the title of theory.

You don't exist? Who am I debating? Or rather what? You're not here by accident or by accidents bumping into other accidents in the dark to make you. You are quite provable. Even if you are a computer program I'm debating.

What's your point? If you needed to know what a theory is, you could have looked it up.

Duh.

7. What atheistic contradictions? There are none to my knowledge. If you see them, show me.

You. You are not here by accidents. Do the math backwards.

8. Yeah, I've heard lots of doctors say that too. I've also heard lots of other people say that. That doesn't mean they have evidence.

They're all liars??? Now for those reading along, they now know why I have the opinions of atheists that I do.

Just because they can't explain what happened, doesn't mean they have evidence for a miracle. Medical science has been developing for all of human history and continues to do so because we do not know everything yet.

Yeahhhh, OK.

9. Highway man mentioned that it is a persons purpose on earth to be tested before heaven. Are you saying that God only tests some people now? You contradicting his statement shows me that you don't even have your own beliefs in order.

God only tested certain individuals in the Bible. I'm thinking that that holds true for the rest of us. Why do we even need God inserting Himself into our lives for tust in Him to be obtained? I'd rather know God by the facts, not by some favor I need. Life isn't even measurable in the context of eternity. We're here so quickly it's just a blip we cannot measure scientifically. How long is a life lived for 107-years in a universe trillions and trillions of years old? Ooops, did I just prove a miracle? Nah.

10. That comment was made on the basis that if you are unshakable in your faith, how can you be tested. You happily omitted that part of course.

Test away. I did and I do.

11. Your logic is flawed, your reasoning is based on that logic, and what tests have you done?

Let's see. . . your ideology rests on 0 x 0 = everything, and MY logic is flawed?

I'm thinking my logic is provable by a 99-cent calculator or an expensive scientific calculator.

I have both, I'll be right back.


Yeah, it looks like 0 x 0 = 0.

Not the universe, logically, we don't get it from nothing.




-----Let's pray for his headache to be healed.

 

[Fin12]

Polycarp fan.

0x0=1

Is not atheism, it is not evoloution. It is creationism.

Look up the definition of evolve and the definition of create.


When will you accept that your mathamatical process is correct, but your final answer is wrong.

It may be of note that evoloution takes aLLLOONNNGGGG time to create new animals. Obviously birds aren't going to turn into elephants overnight.

 

[truthshift]

I just thought it was standard reply stuff.

I'd rather ask a physicist than a voodoo priest though. But, it seems to me, that "you guys" go out of your way to come up with lists of educated people that embrace atheism and discard all the many, many, many educated people that believe in God. Sometimes the majority is right.

It is why I left my atheist belief system. Too much example of creation for me to doubt it anymore. Free thinker from start to finish. That's me. Freethinker, is too rote for my taste.

0 x 0 = idiocy. No matter how you slice non godianism, you can't escape physics wagging its head at it.

Atheists won't allow the debate in academia. For now. But suffice it to say, the lunacy that all of everything came from nothing is laughable.

What kind of Christian? there's lots of brands. Some do not like study and questioning things. I reject that too.

You guys have millions of them. Thinking up all of them is kind of tough.

Oh no you didn't. Darwins finches? THEY ARE STILL BIRDS SIR! C'mon, I have a stomch ache from the last side splitting comedy like this I read.

Chimps are petitioning the ACLU for freedom from the rights being violated in the jungle? Is that on Youtube yet?

I heard a PhD once use the word "duh." It was completely appropriate. As in right now.

Ok, you go with that. I'm taking another path. I have to. I like to think my way through life.

Didn't I? I thought i linked even a humanist org.

You don't exist? Who am I debating? Or rather what? You're not here by accident or by accidents bumping into other accidents in the dark to make you. You are quite provable. Even if you are a computer program I'm debating.

Duh.

You. You are not here by accidents. Do the math backwards.

They're all liars??? Now for those reading along, they now know why I have the opinions of atheists that I do.

Yeahhhh, OK.

God only tested certain individuals in the Bible. I'm thinking that that holds true for the rest of us. Why do we even need God inserting Himself into our lives for tust in Him to be obtained? I'd rather know God by the facts, not by some favor I need. Life isn't even measurable in the context of eternity. We're here so quickly it's just a blip we cannot measure scientifically. How long is a life lived for 107-years in a universe trillions and trillions of years old? Ooops, did I just prove a miracle? Nah.

Test away. I did and I do.

Let's see. . . your ideology rests on 0 x 0 = everything, and MY logic is flawed?

I'm thinking my logic is provable by a 99-cent calculator or an expensive scientific calculator.

I have both, I'll be right back.

Yeah, it looks like 0 x 0 = 0.

Not the universe, logically, we don't get it from nothing.

-----Let's pray for his headache to be healed.

You know, I definitely do not want to throw insults but you certainly have an air of arrogance about you. If you're going to try to talk down to someone, be sure to understand what you are talking about first.

You appear to think you have the answer so, here we go again:

1. I assume you mean atheists by "you guys". You say we go out of our way to find educated people that do not believe in God. Did you consider the fact that refuting the existence of God is based heavily in scientific knowledge? Did you also consider that atheists only make up 3% of the U.S. population while christians make for a whopping 74%? Did you think for a second that maybe we didnt just decided on whim to not believe in God? After all 3 out of 4 people swear by his existence, why would we just randomly doubt his existence THEN seek out these people to support us? Or did you consider the very real possibility that because of these peoples reasoning along with our own "god given" ability to reason, we decided to refute the majority belief? Don't answer. You obviously didn't.

2. You left your "atheist belief system"? Are you aware of what you just said? Atheists don't have a belief system. If I have to define what an atheist is to you, I'm going to be very sad. Whatever beliefs about anything that an atheist holds are separate from that which qualifies him/her as an atheist.

You boast to be a free thinker "from start to finish" but I'm beginning to wonder if you have finished yet. If you are a free thinker and remain open minded then you should be agnostic towards all possiblities and not be 100% doubt-free as to what the truth is. You cannot be both. Before you even start to reply to this, I'm not saying I know whats right, I'm a "free thinker from start to finish" about it. I just happen to know whats wrong.

3. 0x0 = 0. _What's your point?_ for the 3rd time. If anything, you've made a case against yourself. How can something, like god, come from nothing? This isn't undeniable proof of anything at all.

We can't escape physics wagging its head..? Do YOU even know what you're talking about? If your entire case is based on this little equation, you have nothing whatsoever to argue on. Back it up, explain it. Explain how 0x0 tells us God did it.

4. You're fighting yourself! You're the one who believes that all of everything came from nothing! You've got to be kidding me! Wow! Christians believe that God just came into existence from nothing in the beginning and formed everything. What does that have to do with me or any other atheist? Are you referring to the big bang theory?? Even that doesn't say that all of everything came from nothing. On top of that, who said that all atheists believe that?? There isnt a book on atheism that says we believe this, this, and that. Maybe you forgot that it's not a religion.

5. What does it matter what I was? How is it not a personal choice to think for yourself? Which, I obviously have done.

6. Millions huh? Find me 1, look on the internet, find it, give me the sources, and show me just 1 atheist contradiction. Just 1

7. It's called microevolution, as another poster mentioned. We've been able to study evolutionary processes for what, a few hundred years? It works on the same principle that we study geological changes, such as the sea level rising a foot every year, tectonic plates shifting a few inches and mt everest rising a few feet every couple of years. From what we have studied about the earth in our short time of being able to, we can pretty accurately draw a picture of how the tectonic plates have shifted over the millennia. It's the same reasoning we use when we look at evolving strains of micro-organisms and yes, Darwins finches. Do you really think that evolution has to be some transformation of the most extreme? Why would nature provoke a rapid and pointless change in an animal? I can't believe that you're actually making the case of them "still being birds".

8. Like I said, if you're going to be arrogant, at least have a good reason to be. If you're going to throw insults in a round-about way, feel free. You're obviously going to do it anyhow. If you had a founded argument for what you're claiming you'd be spending your time backing it up not trying to belittle me. You say you like to think your way through life, that's great, I'm here asking you for the Nth number of times to show me your logic and reasoning and back it up. I'm actually attempting to see why you believe what you do, and if the argument is sound enough then I _will_ accept it. But you seem to want to avoid doing that.

9. No, you made no clear connection between the 2.

10. I'm not going to get into an existential debate with the likes of you, but, yeah, I'm aware of my own existence, so I do exist. You say that the culmination of existence couldnt have been brought about by accident. According to what? Based on what?

11.I am my own contradiction? o.0 A contradiction is a person saying or doing something and then saying or doing something that is the polar opposite of that. You thinking that I am my own contradiction is based on your idea that I could not have been created by the means in which you think that I think I was created. I never made note of what I believe by the way, so how can you know? Even so, you would have to prove that your belief is true before I contradict myself.

12. Who said anything about them being liars? I said, it doesn't mean they have evidence. Someone who is ignorant to something, such as the existence of miracles cannot claim to KNOW that it is such a thing that happened. If they believe it to be the truth and they tell someone else that it is, should it not be the truth, you decide for yourself whether they're lying. In their mind they're not. This is the reason you "have opinions" on atheists?

Because we question what you do not?

13. This entire paragraph is split into 2 different and totally unrelated topics. One regarding what I mentioned and then something about infinite existence. It's almost as if your brain just jumps from subject to subject.

In regards to what I was saying about being tested on earth; it may be true that god only tests some people before heaven but, then what is your purpose here? You can praise god in heaven, why bother being here?

I'm not even going to respond to the second half. You stated the obvious that "eternity is unmeasurable". This has nothing to do with anything we're discussing. I recognize what eternity is already, thanks...?

14. I was referring to God testing you on earth. You obviously lost track of the context of the statement in your effort to quickly give a rebutal.

15. "Lets see" You don't know what my ideology is. I never told you, so you can't make the claim that it is based on 0x0= everything, which it's not. This in itself is another blatant example of your flawed logic. You just jump to conclusions like you already know and then talk to me in a condescending manner.

Maybe the math equation that you appear to be basing your argument on is provable with a calculator, but your reasoning as to why it explains how "god did it" is far from provable.

Yeah, thanks for making my case for me. No one ever said that everything comes from nothing except the majority of theists who believe that god came into existence from nothing and then 'created' everything. I never made that claim. In fact, I never even made note of it until you brought it up. I don't believe that. So, as I said before, you're arguing with yourself. It's pretty humorous actually.


I know those straight A's in your classes in the public education system do a good job of making you feel smart but it's not doing much for you here.

You see.. I stayed in a holiday express last night.. muahahaha!

- E -

 

[Morcova]

Amputation does not end a person's life.

Neither does blindness.

Furthermore, if God provided such obvious evidence as the regeneration of limbs for those who were prayed Christian prayers it would also begin reflecting undeniable proof of the Christian God, thus defeating the purpose of us even being here and being tested by God.

Good point, then he wouldn't get the joy of sending people to hell.

What a loving god.

 

[Garyzenuf]

Why would someone dismiss Christianity if they believed in evolution?

How much of Evolution can one believe, and still consider themselves a Christian?

 

[Verv]

Neither does blindness.

Good point, then he wouldn't get the joy of sending people to hell.

What a loving god.

We send ourselves to hell and I am sure God must get no joy out of seeing our bad choices.

The Bible's shortest verse:

Jesus wept.

How much of Evolution can one believe, and still consider themselves a Christian?

All.

 

[Garyzenuf]

All.

How?

 

[cantata]

I think we are yet to learn why Polycarp_fan thinks that we have to choose between believing God created everything and believing that everything just popped into existence.

I can see plenty of other possibilities.

I also notice that even Genesis 1 does not suggest that God created ex nihilo.

 

[Braunwyn]

I'd rather ask a physicist than a voodoo priest though. But, it seems to me, that "you guys" go out of your way to come up with lists of educated people that embrace atheism and discard all the many, many, many educated people that believe in God. Sometimes the majority is right.

I think it's scientists that tend to not believe in miracles, creationism, et al, rather than a blanket of 'educated' people.

 

[SallyNow]

I'm think I'm about to be blasted from both sides regarding this issue, but...

I believe that God (or as some would say, the belief in God) gives strength and meaning to very dark times in a person's life, and allows them to keep going, even when it seems all is lost. It's not about God pushing a button that says, "heal Bob's cancer" but instead a process whereby Bob is able to gather the strength through prayer and through family, friends, and community to somehow beat the odds and beat cancer. Does that mean that those who pray but get no relief are lesser? No, they still recieved the support, and the strength that some hold in their last days is amazing. It isn't something to be wished upon anyone, but to totally discount the experiences of those going through the hardest days of their life is just pitiful.

Amputees can never find the strength to grow back limbs - it's just not what the human body was made for. The human body can fight cancer off, it can fight infections off. It can't always. But amputees, or those suffering from any illness or accident, can find comfort in those around them, in prayer, in community support.

It has nothing to do with God not revealing himself, with the Creator giving some a miracle and others not. It's that the world is full of chance, full of free will, and full of matter that has its own rules.

It's getting boring going over the old evolution vs Christan debate. A Christian can trust in the science of evolution while still being a Christian. There's no problem unless one wants to see Genesis as a literal telling rather a beautiful, shortened story of why the world came into being - not the how.

There is no emperical evidence that He exists, according to current scientific method. But there is also no evidence that He does not exist, and there are a lot of unanswered questions. There's a whole gray area between Genesisdidit and random chemicalreactiondidit. We don't know that yet, and to assume, to take away the experiences others have had with only conjecture is petty.

 

[Morcova]

I wanted a actual response Jm.

Originally Posted by jmverville

Amputation does not end a person's life.



​

Neither does blindness.

We send ourselves to hell and I am sure God must get no joy out of seeing our bad choices.

The Bible's shortest verse:

Jesus wept.

That's of course false. It's god who sends his children to suffer for eternity not man.

 

[cantata]

I think that's a wise approach, SallyNow.

It's clear that people are very capable of healing themselves, and I see no need to attribute that brilliance to God - but prayer and faith can be one of the ways in which people so strongly enough that they will get better that they actually do, and if you see God working in that process, good on you.