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Meat and Dairy industry

porlino87

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Most people know that the USA eats a lot of meat and dairy. Most know about factory farming. Factory farms keep animals in tight spaces with limited daylight, use them for their eggs or slice them up. If these factories had glass walls, people would change their minds about supporting this industry. Its a bloody mess. Billions of animals are slaughtered a year.

We should be good people right? We should be good to animals, and limit their suffering. After all the pain and suffering these animals go through, I can't believe most christians will say something like "God put them there for us".

Please don't respond with some ancient bible mumbo jumbo, for that book was written in times of no factory farms, no mass animal suffering and murder. Back then, killing an animal was a personal thing, where the slayer took responsibility. Things have changed and it is wrong to treat animals like they do in factory farms.
 

Mr Dave

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You have come into 'Struggles by Non-Christians'. We don't believe the Bible to be 'mumbo-jumbo'; we use the Bible as a guide and so can do so on this occasion;

The Methodist Church's view on Animal Welfare.
What does the Bible say?

The Bible records that God's covenant is not only with men and women, but ‘with every living creature', and repeats it twice! A human being may be worth many sparrows, but even a sparrow does not die unnoticed (Matthew 10:29–31).

The Christian vision is of a world where the whole of nature is at harmony (Isaiah 11:6–8), and where none is exploited. Short of that ideal, as we are, some judgements at least can be made.
The Methodist Church in Britain | Animal Welfare
 
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drich0150

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Most people know that the USA eats a lot of meat and dairy. Most know about factory farming. Factory farms keep animals in tight spaces with limited daylight, use them for their eggs or slice them up. If these factories had glass walls, people would change their minds about supporting this industry. Its a bloody mess. Billions of animals are slaughtered a year.
:doh:...And, what is the result of this mass slaughter?
What is the price of beef, poultry, pork? and even now with these low low prices the working poor can not afford to feed their families every night a balanced meal. Now what happens when "I" as a farmer now have to increase my overhead 10 fold while reducing total production by half? for the sake of your specific brand of righteousness?

What happens to the price of one egg when instead of being able to raise 10,000 egg producing chickens on a 50 acre farm, to 2,000 "Free range" chickens in that same space?? Now what happens to the price of all of the things that have eggs in them like the baked goods that make up the staples of the working poor?

One could say the average man could work an entire day and not buy a loaf of bread with his wages... Hmm Where have i read this before? Don't tell me this is the first you've heard of this "Revelation"

We should be good people right?
Their are no "good" people when self righteousness trumps, allowing the poor to provide for themselves.

We should be good to animals, and limit their suffering.
At what cost? I would slaughter 10,000 animals from the feet up if it meant feeding 1/4 as many people that other wise could not provide for themselves.

After all the pain and suffering these animals go through, I can't believe most christians will say something like "God put them there for us".
In turn I can't believe that you have not thought out the consequences of your observation... Did you simply believe that we could maintain the production levels and consumer costs buy increasing the burden on our farmers? Or have you and you just don't care about the millions who could not afford to eat?

Please don't respond with some ancient bible mumbo jumbo, for that book was written in times of no factory farms, no mass animal suffering and murder.
Done.

Back then, killing an animal was a personal thing, where the slayer took responsibility.
^_^ Maybe for the poor, and at best they ate meat once a month. Those who could afford to eat meat had their servants slaughter and prepped their food, or they bought it at the various temples. (As per the writings of Paul)

Things have changed and it is wrong to treat animals like they do in factory farms.
What hasn't changed is the command to love your neighbor (Not Chicken or cow) as yourself.
 
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porlino87

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Yes I agree about the price change that would occur if we didn't have factory farms. But, guess what? We don't need meat! In fact, studies show that meat is bad for you, and so is dairy, milk and eggs. Do the research and you will see that a plant-based diet is in fact healthy for all stages of life.

In addition to the ethical and moral aspects of the exploitation of animals, there is also the efficiency debate. Growing crops to feed humans is more efficient thatn growing grops, feeding animals, then eating the animals. The animal uses the food for its own bio available energy, thus resulting in a loss of energy. Take this to billions upon billions of animals...you see where I'm going with this I guess. Also consider how much water is wasted in the animals, as well as electricity to operate the massive machinery in the slaughterhouses.

All i'm saying, is if you believe you are following a religion that asks for the welfare of animals, you should most definitely stop supporting factory farming.
 
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porlino87

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You have come into 'Struggles by Non-Christians'. We don't believe the Bible to be 'mumbo-jumbo'; we use the Bible as a guide and so can do so on this occasion;


The Christian vision is of a world where the whole of nature is at harmony (Isaiah 11:6–8), and where none is exploited. Short of that ideal, as we are, some judgements at least can be made.

And you're saying using animals for a tasty treat is not exploitation?
 
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drich0150

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Yes I agree about the price change that would occur if we didn't have factory farms. But, guess what? We don't need meat!
Yeah who needs cheap protein that our economic infrastructure centers around.. I don't know about you but I am getting tired of where our economy is, but I don't want to make it worse by putting 1/3 of America out of a job. You do realize we need to have an economic balance in place no matter what we decide to eat right? and if 1/3 of this countries work force is working to raise, process and deliver cheap meat then if it all goes away then the rest of the country will collapse as well!! Or are you just looking at one signal side of the coin?

In fact, studies show that meat is bad for you, and so is dairy, milk and eggs.
I can give you links that shows the opposite to be true.

Do the research and you will see that a plant-based diet is in fact healthy for all stages of life.
This is a sweeping broad generalization that has no basis in anything.. It is like saying "food" is necessary for good health. Or, we need water to drink in order to promote good health.

In addition to the ethical and moral aspects of the exploitation of animals, there is also the efficiency debate. Growing crops to feed humans is more efficient than growing crops, feeding animals, then eating the animals. The animal uses the food for its own bio available energy, thus resulting in a loss of energy. Take this to billions upon billions of animals...you see where I'm going with this I guess.
seriously? you do know what most of these animals eat don't you? Corn. Not sweet corn (that you eat off of the cob) but feed stock corn. It is good for animal feed and industrial usage. "We" can't digest it efficiently. why do we grow this corn? Because it is extremely hardy and needs relative little water and or little care of any kind. It will grow and thrive where most food crops will not even germinate. So we grow this worthless corn to feed animals and to break down into various other useful chemicals. We Feed this stuff to our live stock because we get a greater yield (In digestible/palatable food) than we do if we planted anything else in it's place.

But now with your assertion about "efficiency" you have up rooted nearly 1/2 of America's farm land. what do you suggest that we can plant in these Fields that will yield a product that will feed America, like this corn has (in the way of live stock feed?)

Also consider how much water is wasted in the animals,
I guess you have never been on a farm before, nor understand how much water is required to grow anything.

as well as electricity to operate the massive machinery in the slaughterhouses.
Most modern slaughter houses are run on methane created by the collection and fermentation of animal waste. They actually contribute to the power grid in most cases.

All I'm saying, is if you believe you are following a religion that asks for the welfare of animals, you should most definitely stop supporting factory farming.
Lol, in what book chapter and verse is the welfare of animals considered, let alone commanded, especially over that of a person?

All I am saying is that you give your argument alittle thought before you condemn the system that puts food (whatever you choose to eat) on the table for you. Because what do you think would happen to this country let alone the world, when all of the cheap food is gone? Have you ever seen a Zombie movie? Replace the walking dead with the poor, angry and hungry. And you will have anarchy. As it is we are a dollar menu away from a societal collapse, because as it is we have chased the working poor out of our Supermarkets with our super Prices.(and you want to add to them) when this happens all of the working poor and the tasks they perform that makes your life an opportunity to judge all who do not hold sacred, what you and your version of righteousness dictates, all goes away. Then where will you be? You will be able to have your soy milk, but only if you live with in walking distance of the place that process it.

Bottom line, we have factory farms for one reason. to feed over 500 million people (Mexico and Canada as well) Whether you can appreciate this or not our "farms" only can produce a viable crop once or twice a year, and unless we are cultivating a dry grain then that plant matter has to be preserved or refrigerated to allow us to get through the winter months. (when most of our farm land is covered with snow) to which if you added the expense of refrigeration (and wasted energy costs) or the preservation methods used, only the wealthy will be able to afford to eat more than once every couple of days.. That is unless you plan or feeding the majority of the people feed stock corn. or only whole grains (because you eliminated dairy and eggs to make bread) then many will not survive this call to righteously respecting our live stock. Ask yourself what is more important. the people currently living or the billions of animals need to keep them alive and well over the course of their lives?

Life is a dirty business. In order for something to live, something else must die. Christ exemplified this principle with His death on the cross. the only question is in your heart would you see millions of people dead or billions of animals to take their place? what is more important your righteousness or the lives and welfare of your fellow man?
 
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Mr Dave

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And you're saying using animals for a tasty treat is not exploitation?

Firstly animals are not a 'tasty-treat' to meat-eaters, but a staple part of a meal.
Secondly, the Bible does not oblige us to be vegetarians or vegans, eating animals is fine, but animals when alive should be treated well.
 
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porlino87

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Yes I agree about the economic balance argument. It is obvious that this change would have to be slow.

And yes, you can show me links that meat is good for you. But, if you can be healthy without it, why not? And I'm sure you realize that obesity one of the top preventable causes of death in this country, so I'm sure most people will be better off without meat.

With regards to the Corn feeding issue, yes I agree that corn (and soy) is the most cost efficient way to feed animals. Although efficient and easy to grow, my argument is that meat and dairy is not necessary for our health, and these crops could grow other foods that is healthy and digestable by humans, thus bypassing the inefficient livestock industry.

"Lol, in what book chapter and verse is the welfare of animals considered, let alone commanded, especially over that of a person?" - I'm not saying "welfare of animals over people" I'm just saying, "Welfare of animals" - period! Given this country's obesity rates, less meat might even do some good.

"Life is a dirty business. In order for something to live, something else must die" - yes but it doesn't have to be a living, breathing animal. What would Christ think if he took a tour of the biggest slaughterhouse in the nation?

I see your argument, and I agree with it. If the meat and dairy industry disappeared overnight, yes the economy will collapse. What i'm saying, is there needs to be awareness and education on this principle. The change must be slow. These factory farms are disgusting, they pump the animals full of hormones and antibiotics, the animals don't see daylight and are crammed in tight spaces, they are forced to breed and produce offspring just so they can be taken away from the mothers, the workers at these factories have negative psychological consequences seeing so much brutality. Please watch some videos of these factory farms and you might change your mind.

When I eat meat, I close my eyes. I don't want to think about the suffering animals because I don't have to. The job was done somewhere else and it wasn't my responsiblity. I just enjoy my burger. I am realizing that this is not healthy anymore.
 
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Mr Dave

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porlino87

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Sorry if the thread has strayed from the original post. Let me just clarify the reason why I am posting this topic on Christian Forums. I have been christian all my life, and I just realized that I disagree with the meat and dairy industries from all points of view. I realized that religion gave me a set of rules to follow, and if I followed those I would be fine. Unfortunately, religion gives little room for social change because we are following what a human said 2 thousand years ago. Factory farms did not exist back then. This is a new problem, and I blame my religion for blinding me from it.
 
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Mr Dave

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These may be more relevant, e.g.

4.—(1) The occupier of a slaughterhouse or knacker’s yard shall ensure that the premises are constructed and maintained so as to prevent any injury being caused to any animals confined there.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1) above, it shall be the duty of the occupier of a slaughterhouse, or of a knacker’s yard where animals are held prior to slaughter, to ensure that—

(a)the slaughterhouse or knacker’s yard contains a suitable lairage which is—

(i)adequate in size and construction for the number of animals confined there,

(ii)constructed so as to provide shelter from the sun and adverse weather for every animal confined there,

(iii)constructed so as to enable it to be thoroughly cleansed,

(iv)provided with racks, mangers or other equipment for containing food and with drinking facilities which (in all cases) are suitable for the feeding and watering of all the animals confined in the lairage, are easily accessible to such animals, and where practicable, are fixed, and

(v)adequately ventilated and adequately lighted for the proper conduct of all the operations carried on there;

(b)there are no sharp edges or protrusions in the slaughterhouse or knacker’s yard with which any animals may come into contact;

(c)the walls of the slaughterhall are constructed, and the floor of the slaughterhall is channelled, so as to enable any blood and waste matter to be effectively swilled away;

(d)the slaughterhall is adequately lighted for the proper conduct of all operations carried on there; and

(e)the place in the slaughterhall at which any sheep, goats or calves are slaughtered is sited so as to minimise the amount of handling that is necessary to move such animals from any lairage or holding pen in which they are confined to that place.
The Slaughter of Animals (Humane Conditions) Regulations 1990

The Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations 1995
 
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porlino87

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...and how do you know ALL suffer?

Because I know that I suffer when I cut myself. I know that my dog suffers when I poke it with a knife. Animals are social creatures, they need space to be happy.

Factory farms keep them in tight spaces, they force them to breed, they take away their offspring for veal.

Chickens have their beaks cut off so that they do not harm other chickens in their cages.
 
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Mr Dave

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Sorry if the thread has strayed from the original post. Let me just clarify the reason why I am posting this topic on Christian Forums. I have been christian all my life, and I just realized that I disagree with the meat and dairy industries from all points of view. I realized that religion gave me a set of rules to follow, and if I followed those I would be fine. Unfortunately, religion gives little room for social change because we are following what a human said 2 thousand years ago. Factory farms did not exist back then. This is a new problem, and I blame my religion for blinding me from it.

Ok. I agree that there have been many problems with the farming industries (which would differ from country to country), but the last decade or so has seen a big push (at least over here) to promote to welfare of animals even amongst meat eaters. Farms became heavily industrialised but have moved back towards something vaguely more similar to the time of Christ where a farmer tends his animals, not shoving as many into a shed as possible feeding them badly.
 
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