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Meaning of Due Benevolence

dallasapple

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It depends on what my boss asked me to submit to..but no ..in a BOSS employee relationship you are HIRED to take ORDERS from the person who hired you ..you are HIRED for a job..and they PAY YOU to do it the way they want it done..then you LEAVE and go HOME to yrou house..and if you have a family yoru family and take yoru PAY CHECK yoru boss gave you for the JOB you did and spend the money on PERSONAL things..

I CHOSE to get married my husband did not HIRE me to get a 'job done" that he needed done ..his proposal to me wasnt an INTERVIEW where I submitted to him my WISH to "work for him' and my qualifications to which he then agreed to after careful review and then hired me oops I mean married me..

IF I wanted a boss? I would START my own business..OOPS I already did that ...with my husbands skills I "pimped him out" as he calls it..we run a buisness together..hes NOT my boss..hes the boss of himslef and Im the boss of me..if anythign the customers who call me is whom I'm "submissive" to because I want their BUSINESS..their money feeds my children..

Dallas
 
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chaz345

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Why though do you characterize the man doing exactly what you say women should do as dictatorial and inappropriate?
 
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LinkH

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Psalm63,

I wrote a whopper of a response to your post, but posted it as a new thread, since it is a big topic.

One point I made is that Paul tells men that husband and wife are one flesh, and a man never hates his flesh, but nourishes it.

So why can't men take the same approach to love that you take on submission?

If a man comes in for marriage counseling. His wife says, "He beats me. He calls me 'stupid', and he gives me $.50 a week for my own personal food while I take care of the kids."

So the marriage counselor says, "Don't worry about it ma'am. Your husband is a church going Christian. So he loves you like he loves his own flesh. He takes good care of you."

Another couple comes in. The husband says, "My wife is unsubmissive. She always insists on controlling every aspect of the house. If I don't give in, she throws dishes at me and refuses to sleep with me. When she does sleep with me, it is only when she wants to, and it is all about her pleasure and not mine. She makes me do all the housework when I come home from work, while she sits around watching soap operas all day. She is always calling me 'stupid' and other names that I cannot repeat. If I don't do the housework, she threatens to leave me. The Bible says my wife is supposed to be submissive to me, and respect me. But she isn't doing any of that.

The counselor says, "I just read on the CF marriage forums that Ephesians 5 is really saying that wives are already automatically submissive to their husbands. So you have nothing to worry about. Your wife doesn't treat you like that. She submits to you. And she won't divorce you because it would be unsubmissive to leave a loving husband like you. After all, you love her like you love your own flesh according to Ephesians 5."

Doesn't it make more sense to read Ephesians 5 as exhortations for wives to submit to their husbands and for husbands to love their wives, than to assume this is the case in every marriage, or even every Christian marriage. The latter view is contrary to reality.
 
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Psalm63

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because he would be guilty of subtracting from the word of God. Paul uses IMPERATIVES for the agape commands. All of the hupotasso verbs in Eph 5, 1 Peter 3, and Titus 2 are PASSIVE voice verbs. They are NOT imperatives and we err, add to the word of GOD, and bind up burdens too heavy to bear upon the daughters of the most High God when we insert COMMANDS where there are none!
 
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Psalm63

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That is not what I am saying. I am saying she is automatically SUBJECT TO her husband like you are SUBJECT TO gravity. We would not say you are "submissive to" gravity. A statement like that makes no sense because "being submissive" implies volition.

Eph 5, 1 Pet 2, and Titus 2 are all descriptions not prescriptions. They are not telling wives to "be submissive". They are saying, you ARE SUBJECT TO your husbands so here are some ideas for how to make the best of that reality.

I especially love that Peter uses Sarah as a role model for dealing with a disobedient husband. She is a great role model.

LinkH, you ARE SUBJECT to gravity. How are you going to make the best of that reality?


 
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M

MessianicMommy

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Psalms, I am very uncertain where you got that "Sarai" means ""Contentious""" when it means "My Princess". Sarah means "Princess". Ask a good Hebrew scholar and you get variations of "My ruler/My Princess" vs "Ruler/Princess" on the issue.

Link This is an answer to you..

To quote a teacher I greatly admire:

The author of the above is Pastor Crystal Lutton. One of her websites is here: AOLFF — Arms of Love Family Fellowship


She is IIRC in the middle of writing a book on the subject of "Women only submission" and "Mutual submission". She will examine the points as they are brought up in various theological books and Christian Living books, and examine them in light of Scripture.
 
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LinkH

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The part about the man loving his own flesh doesn't have the sense of a command. It says no man ever hated his own flesh. And a husband and wife are one flesh. So, viola, I could invent a doctrine that men automatically love their wives. Sure, there are commands to do it, but I could argue it is automatic. (Not that this is consistent with the text, but it could be argued.)

This is analogous to the argument you are making. Scripture does tell women to submit to their husbands. Even if you were right that this one verse out of several was saying wives are subject to their husbands has the sense of being a command.

Several things that are translated as commands are in the passage. Romans 12 tells believers not to be conformed to this world but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. These verbs are in the passive.
 
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LinkH

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Eph 5, 1 Pet 2, and Titus 2 are all descriptions not prescriptions. They are not telling wives to "be submissive". They are saying, you ARE SUBJECT TO your husbands so here are some ideas for how to make the best of that reality.


Are all those translators of different translations in cahoots with each other then? Would you say that they are wrong?

What is it you object to about their translation. Do you argue that a passive cannot have the sense of a command?

LinkH, you ARE SUBJECT to gravity. How are you going to make the best of that reality?

I don't "arrange in order under" gravity. Gravity is a physical principle. It is not something that has authority that can be obeyed or disobeyed. Soldiers in the Roman army submitted in the 'hupotasso' to their commanding officers. The Bible tells believers to submit to governments, and warns against resisting these powers. There is a choice. The Bible exhorts slaves to submit to their masters. There is a choice. Onesimus proved that. Wives can choose whether to submit to their husbands as well.

I especially love that Peter uses Sarah as a role model for dealing with a disobedient husband. She is a great role model.

Where do you get this idea? Where does Peter say anything about Abraham being disobedient. I can't find a clear example in Abraham's life of disobedience that had something to do with Sarah. Sure, he took Lot with him. When it came to taking a concubine, was Abraham disobedient? He may not have had access to the creation account. We do not know. There is no evidence of a command not to be polygamous. He did that at Sarah's behest.

He did not have the command not to lie as far as we know. Having Sarai lie may have shown a lack of faith in God's promises about him, but there is no evidence that he received a command about this.
 
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Psalm63

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My 14 yod asked me what I was doing on the forum last night. I told her that I was explaining my discoveries about how a wife IS SUBJECT to her husband and that is why Paul hammers so hard on the need for a husband to AGAPE his wife. Women's emotions ARE tied up with their husbands, it is how God made us and it has it's purpose. I believe husbands who learn to be sensitive to and considerate of their wives grow in Christlikeness.

My 14 yod said she sees this tendency of women to BE SUBJECT to men in a relationship already in High School. The girl gets very emotionally involved with the boy (and there is LOTS of high school drama over this) and the boy "just wants sex".
 
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JaneFW

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Why do women take sex so seriously? Just do it, enjoy it, and be free with it instead of using it as a currency. It's hard enough for men to link it to emotions as it is without all the baggage that women put on it.
'rant over...'
LOL. It's men I see taking sex seriously, including your own threads. Why don't YOU just enjoy it and be free about it instead of insisting on it being done your way in your time how you like it. Betcha your wife would love it if you just relaxed a bit.
 
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dallasapple

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Well thats one thing I did right with mine..right now my 15 yo is "dating" a girl..hes not a uenich..but he doesnt "just want sex"..hes very emotionally sensitive and in tune to HIS and HER feelings..hes a very kind and compassionate and understanding(or he tries) person ..and thats one of the reasons WHY he said he doesnt get along well with a lot of the boys his age..he said thats all they talk about..he doesnt like them .My 22 yo is also not a hound for sex..He wants a RELATIONSIP..unfortunately right now hes not ready for one IMHO..Hes a wee bit on the 'not sure what I want to do in life" side at the moment ..and that doesnt "impress" a lot of females I dont think..not at his age..anyway there is no rush..But boys ..MY boys anyway dont 'just want sex"..and they werent just born that way..I TALKED to them about sex and relationships at length..when the opportununity arose over the years..which if you are yourself in tune with your children is frequently..and this time it paid off...

Dallas
 
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mkgal1

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But she's not his mirror because she's a flawed imperfect being whose own personal preferences can alter the reflection.

The Word is our mirror.

Proverbs 27:17

Also....as a husband is to be able to present his wife without spot, wrinkle or blemish...IMO, that means she is a reflection of his ministry of marriage. 1st Corinthians 11:7 seems to go along with that as well: "the woman is the glory of the man."
 
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Psalm63

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My adult son resisted the culture and his hormones and remained a virgin until marriage (at age 21). My younger sons 9 and 11 haven't hit puberty and the hormone rush yet, but we have filters on our computer to protect them from porn exposure and the Centerfold Syndrome.

The 14 yod and I were talking to the 11 yo yesterday about the coming hormone rush and the way that plays out with some boys and how his older brother is such a good role model of self control and we are all rooting for him and confident that he will make good decisions too.
 
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chaz345

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BIG difference between her being a reflection of his ministry and her being a reflection that shows him his areas of failing which was the context I was responding to. He has the holy spirit to convict him of areas where he's failing, it's not her job to also do that.
 
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