Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

Mark Quayle said:

Then let me call them the 'supposed elect'. Though we can be confident, we can fool ourselves; therefore, we don't know for sure who the elect are until they are in heaven. If the 'supposed elect' does not persevere, he was not elect. But the perseverance depends on God, as does the calling and the election, the faith, the walk and obedience. We work all the harder, not to make our calling and election sure, thought that too, of course; not to make ourselves approved of God, though that too, of course, but because we love him, and need to be close to him. The love of Christ drives us. Without him we can do nothing.

We are one with Christ, both in joy and suffering. How can we not work to persevere? But if we don't, we were not one with Christ.

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Are you secure in your faith? Or do you live in fear that you might lose your salvation? (assuming you ever had it?) Wait and see? If not, then what? Too late then? Maybe hope I was right about UR. - lol

Mark Quayle said:

When I said I can fool myself, I didn't say I can lose my salvation. If I "lose my salvation" I never was saved.

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Isn't that a confession of OSAS? In the end, those who were saved were always saved? (once they were saved)

Saint Steven said:

Isn't that a confession of OSAS? In the end, those who were saved were always saved? (once they were saved)

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Generally, those who espouse OSAS mean that if you said a prayer at 8, and you really meant it, you are saved forever even if you live a life that shows no fruit.

Clare73 said:

No, there are many ways to "fall away." Only some apply to "religious apostasy; i.e., revolt, rebellion, defection, to forsake, fall away:
apostasia - defection, revolt, apostasy, Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3
ekpipto - to fall out, 2 Peter 3:17
parapipto - to fall away from, Hebrews 6:6
aphistemi - to withdraw from, 1Timothy 4:1
parabaino - to fall, transgress, Acts 1:25

"Fallen from grace" in Paul's usage is simply making works of the law necessary for justification/salvation. The error can be corrected. If not, it is not saving faith.
True faith does not apostasize. The elect do not apostasize permanently, only false faith apostasizes permanently.
If any elect "fall away," it may be because their faith is not yet a true faith, maybe just intellectual assent, with no Holy Spirit heart work. But there will be a Holy Spirit heart work that will bring the elect to true faith, which true faith does not apostasize.

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Not so at all. Those who fell away into unbelief/apostasy were clearly born again prior in Hebrews 10.

Look at the description of them who fall away:

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

They were sanctified by the blood of the covenant of Christ, and received grace,

And Jesus said, some will believe for a while, then fall away.

chad kincham said:

Not so at all. Those who fell away into unbelief/apostasy were clearly born again prior in Hebrews 10.

Look at the description of them who fall away:

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

They were sanctified by the blood of the covenant of Christ, and received grace,

And Jesus said, some will believe for a while, then fall away.

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Believe doesn’t always mean saved. Fruit is the evidence of salvation.

Hammster said:

Generally, those who espouse OSAS mean that if you said a prayer at 8, and you really meant it, you are saved forever even if you live a life that shows no fruit.

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I think OSAS would say that person was never saved in the first place. The fruit is the evidence. How could they have "really meant it" if there is no fruit? That doesn't make sense. We aren't saved by works, but there should be evidence of a transformed person. People notice when someone is transformed.

Sounds like you have given OSAS a bad rap.

Saint Steven said:

I think OSAS would say that person was never saved in the first place. The fruit is the evidence. How could they have "really meant it" if there is no fruit? That doesn't make sense. We aren't saved by works, but there should be evidence of a transformed person. People notice when someone is transformed.

Sounds like you have given OSAS a bad rap.

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I’ve debated folks here on CF that held the view I put forth.

Mark Quayle said:

The only thing wrong with OSAS is how it is sometimes used by proponents, and often used by opponents. The bare words of it are true enough.

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I feel bad for those who find no security in their salvation. They must be losing a lot of sleep. Very unhealthy.

Saint Steven said:

I feel bad for those who find no security in their salvation. They must be losing a lot of sleep. Very unhealthy.

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Honestly, I think most think that they do enough. Though when I ask how they know, they don’t really have an answer.

Hammster said:

Honestly, I think most think that they do enough. Though when I ask how they know, they don’t really have an answer.

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Do enough? Who could ever "do enough"?
How are such things measured? Could you have done more? (sure) Did you do enough? (who knows?)

Better to measure your salvation by the finished work of Christ on our behalf. "It is finished!" Done deal.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I feel bad for those who find no security in their salvation. They must be losing a lot of sleep. Very unhealthy.

Hammster said:

Believe doesn’t always mean saved. Fruit is the evidence of salvation.

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Try re reading what I posted - this time please pay attention.

In Hebrews 6 and 10, those who apostatize were clearly saved first. - they were sanctified, were partakers of the Holy Spirit, were under the blood covenant of Jesus, received grace, etc.

Mark Quayle said:

Eternal Security has nothing to do with feelings. It is what God did, does and will do.

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On that point we agree.

Mark Quayle said:

So you don't believe that a person can pretend to be, and even convince themselves that they are true believers, while all along they were not? They may believe God existed, and that Christ died for their sins, yet not have the Spirit indwelling, no? After all, the devil believes and trembles.

Nobody has yet been able to show me how the Gospel is not the work of God alone, but that the spiritually dead must 'accept Christ' somehow, the very Christ with whom they are at enmity, whose obedience they are unable to submit to, the very ones who don't know the depths of the truth nor of who it is they are 'accepting' nor even what it took for God to save them, no concept of the horror and power of sin, no constant devotion, no spiritual ability apart from Christ --these are the ones God depends on tho make a firm, consistent, abiding choice of integrity before the Spirit of God can make them spiritually alive?

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Sure, a person can pretend to be anything. A person can pretend to be a saved Christian but not be. In that case this person wasn't saved before they pretended and still not saved while pretending. Thus we have a person who was not saved and still not saved.

But the issue is not about pretenders but about those who were truly saved but fell away, apsotates.

Salvation is not moneergistic or unconditional. Man has a role in his own salvation (Acts of the Apostles 2:40; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 Corinthians 7:1; etc). Salvation requires that man CONDTIONALLY believe and CONDITITION CONTINUE to believe unto death.
Romans 10:17 there is no guarantee that a man who hears God word will even have faith. And those that do hear and have faith there is no guarantee they will continue to have faith. Men believe of their own volition therefore can stop believing by that same volition. God has NEVER put any responsibility or onus upon Himself to see to it that the believer will "persevere" therefore be impossible to fall from faith.
Instead God has put the responsibility upon the believer to keep himself in the faith:

2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1 Coritnians 9:27 "But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified"

Jude 1:24 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

It's the Christians role and responsibility (not God's) in his own salvation to examone himself, to give diligence, discipline himself, to keep himself.

1 Coritnians 15:2 "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain"

Those Christians who do not examine themselves, do not give diligence, do not discipline themselves, etc will fall from faith and become lost therefore they would have "believed in vain". A person who had never been saved/never really believed cannot have beleived in vain for they never have believed.

So the issue is NOT about those who never believed, were never saved but about those who actually did believe, saved but fall away therefore believed in vain.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 2:24. Again, if the Christian does not allow the word of God CONDITIONALLY CONTINUE within him whereby the Christian does not CONDITIONALLY CONTINUE to believe.....he will fall away, he will NOT continue in Christ.

Saint Steven said:

Salvation by works then.

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Salvation by being obedient to God's will for all the disobedient will be lost for certain.

Clare73 said:

These Scriptures remain unaddressed specfically, being true to their text:

Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .because those whom the Father gives him have true faith, which does not (truly) apostasize.

We'll continue the discussion when you do.

Just so you understand what I am saying:
those whom the Father gives to Jesus have the gift of true faith (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1;
Romans 12:3; Acts 13:48, 18:27), which perseveres to the end without permanently falling away because of the Holy Spirit's preserving work in them "to will and to act according to God's good purpose." (Philippians 2:13)

Those who the Father gives to Jesus, and whom Jesus does not lose, do not fall away from the faith because of God's preserving work in them, keeping them from falling away from the faith.

"My sheep. . .shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me (what my Father has given to me) is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (including themselves)." (John 10:28-29)

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Those verses in John 6vhave been addressed MULTIPLE times... see John 6:40 with the present tense and subjunctive mood. I just dealt with John 10:28-29 where these verses REFUTE OSAS. Here is what I posted earlier on it:

John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto "them" eternal life; and "they" shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Who is the "them" that will be given eternal life and the "they" that shall never perish? Just anyone UNconditionally? No! Those that are Christ sheep. Can anyone be a sheep of Christ UNconditionally? No!
The verse clearly points out the only ones that qualify to be a sheep are those that CONDITIONALLY have a present tense 'hearing' and 'following'.

So when Christ said "my sheep" that specifically refers to only those that continually hear and follow Him. And it is only these sheep they continually hear and follow Christ that make up the pronouns "they" and "them" of verse 28. Those that quit hearing and following no longer meet the necessary qualifications to be of Christ sheep. They have removed themselves from God's hand losing the promise of eternal life for failing to continue to meet the necessary qualifications to be a sheep of Christ.

Men hear and follow by their own volition therefore can stop hearing and following by that same volition. Nothing says it is impossible for one to stop hearing and following nor if one quits he "never really" heard and followed.