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Jesus said He came for the lost sheep. That’s why He goes after them. If salvation could be lost, then Jesus isn’t a trustworthy Shepherd.Salvation is not monergestic nor unconditional. Both God and man have a role in man's salvation, Jude 1:21. When the Christian fails to keep his role in what God has required for salvation then the Christian loses the promise of salvation he once had.
If eternal security were true, it would be impossible for one sheep to ever become lost. But there is such a thing as apostasy, falling away.
Jesus said He came for the lost sheep. That’s why He goes after them. If salvation could be lost, then Jesus isn’t a trustworthy Shepherd.
It’s not a good argument to take various verses, ignore the context, and put them together as if it’s a coherent argument.Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24) and for the most part they rejected Him, crucified Him (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16) and were lost Romans 10:1-3 therefore God cast them off from being His chosen, Romans 11:20-23.
If once saved always were true then the Jews could have never become lost, cast off. If once lost always lost were true, then the Gentiles could never been grafted in becoming God's chosen.
The purpose of parables is to teach one essential idea and in the case of the sheep is that sheep can become lost. That Christ is not a good, responsible Shepherd is reading something into the parable that is not there. Jesus had told them to go into the city streets for the lost, publican and sinners for all are of value to God (Luke 14:21) and in Luke 15:2 the Jews slander Jesus accusing Him of receiving sinners and eating with them. So Jesus gives parables to explain why He went among sinners.
Judas was among those given to Christ by God John 17:6 whom Jesus kept but Judas became lost, John 17:12. So the parable is not about Christ not being a good Shepherd.It’s not a good argument to take various verses, ignore the context, and put them together as if it’s a coherent argument.
The lost sheep didn’t ignore Him. The purpose of the parable is to show that Christ goes after the lost sheep. The reason that His people are referred to as sheep throughout scripture is that sheep are stupid animals that wander, they need a Shepherd, and they need constant care. Every time we are compared to sheep, it’s in reference to His people. Sheep are given to Christ by His Father. I think it’s blasphemous to say that the Son would lose any sheep given to Him by His Father. That’s why I said that if He loses any, He’s not trustworthy. I, for one, an thankful for such a Trustworthy Shepherd.
Lost sheep are always found. The Father gives the sheep to the Son. The Son is faithful. Your understanding makes the Shepherd to either be incompetent or unfaithful.Judas was among those given to Christ by God John 17:6 whom Jesus kept but Judas became lost, John 17:12. So the parable is not about Christ not being a good Shepherd.
The Shepherd persues the lost but the lost are not always found. Faithful Christians have been given the obligation to persue after Christians who wander away becoming lost, James 5:19-20.
John 6:39-40 those who God gives Christ are those who believe and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life
How are such things measured? Have you done enough to "maintain" your salvation? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Was it enough? (who knows?)Salvation is not monergestic nor unconditional. Both God and man have a role in man's salvation, Jude 1:21. When the Christian fails to keep his role in what God has required for salvation then the Christian loses the promise of salvation he once had.
If eternal security were true, it would be impossible for one sheep to ever become lost. But there is such a thing as apostasy, falling away.
No, they are not always found. Jesus came to seek and save the lost house of Israel and all were not found, most rejected Christ and were lost. Luke 15:4 "....and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" does not imply certain guranteee all who become lost will be found.Lost sheep are always found. The Father gives the sheep to the Son. The Son is faithful. Your understanding makes the Shepherd to either be incompetent or unfaithful.
Yes. He finds the sheep! How are you missing that?No, they are not always found. Jesus came to seek and save the lost house of Israel and all were not found, most rejected Christ and were lost. Luke 15:4 "....and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" does not imply certain guranteee all who become lost will be found.
Matthew 8:12-13 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."
How are such things measured? Have you done enough to "maintain" your salvation? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Was it enough? (who knows?)
The lost sheep have not lost their salvation, they have only wandered away. It is the Shepard's job to bring them back when they do. Even a wandering sheep is not "out" of the flock.
Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that we can undo, by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place?
Luke 15:4 NIV
“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
The sheep was not lost in the sense of either not being saved, or having "lost" their salvation.If the sheep that went astray was not lost then why is it called "lost" and why go look for something that is not lost?
What about the prodigal son? He was alive then became dead then alive again. Luke 15:32. His spiritual state was he was spiritually alive when he was with his father, then spiritually died when separated from his father, then spiritually alive AGAIN returning to his father. The father did not go out seeking for the lost son, does that imply lack of concern for the lost by the father? No, that idea would be read into the parable. But the son "came to himself" and returned to the father. The fact the son "came to himself" shows a crucial role man has in his own salvation...self determination to do God's will and not live an ungodly life.
No, lost sheep are not guaranteed to be found, you are reading that idea into the parable. Again, Matthew 8:12-13 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."Yes. He finds the sheep! How are you missing that?
“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
— Luke 15:4
The sheep was not lost in the sense of either not being saved, or having "lost" their salvation.
I don't think salvation belongs in the Lost and Found box. Can we lose our salvation as easily as our car keys? Maybe check the cushions on the couch? - lol
Does the Father give sheep to the Son?No, lost sheep are not guaranteed to be found, you are reading that idea into the parable. Again, Matthew 8:12-13 "How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."
Perhaps from a Damnationist perspective. It could just as easily be viewed from a UR perspective.The lost sheep, coin, son in the parables of Luke 15 does represent those that have no salvation, hence the urgency to find them.
John 6:35-40 says "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" and "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day".Does the Father give sheep to the Son?
Perhaps from a Damnationist perspective. It could just as easily be viewed from a UR perspective.
The sheep already belonged to the Shepard. The coin already belonged to the woman. The son already belonged to the Father.
Did the son lose his sonship? Only in his own eyes. (no longer worthy to be called your son) The father would have NONE of that. Bring the ring and robe.
Even as it turned out for the sheep. Everything was in sheep-shape. - lol
That is not the definition of apostasy, which is:Earlier you posted;
"Religious apostasy is to fall away from a profession of faith.
Profession is not necessarily possession. Those who apostasize had only a profession, they had no possession of true faith."
According to what you posted a person with only a "profession of faith" was never saved to begin with. So his position has not changed...he was in a lost state and still is in a lost state....he was fallen and still is fallen. Yet the terms apostate and fallen refer to a person whose position has changed from a saved state to a lost state.
Correct.One who was never really saved is not one who can fall for he is and was already in a fallen lost state. Obviously one cannot fall from an already fallen state.
THH 2:19 were never saved, then the most that verse proves is that a never saved person....was never saved, it fails to prove that it's impossible for a saved person to become an apostate/fallen. Same with Luke 8:13 if they were never saved then they were lost, still lost and their position did not change. Again, 'apostate' and 'fallen' refer to those whose position has changed from saved to lost and not lost to lost for lost and still lost is an unchanged position....
"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
If they never really believed therefore never really saved then they were ALWAYS fallen and one cannot fall from an already fallen position. Secondly, you are ASSUMING they never did really believe therefore never really saved. Luke clearly states that they "believe"... Luke did not say they were faking as you assume. The verb 'believe" is in the indicative mood which is a simple statement of fact. It is a fact that they actually did believe hence saved then would fall from that saved state by going into unbelief, a clear change of position going from saved to lost. If they never believed then Luke did not state the truth about them when he said for a fact they 'believe'. That they "fall away" is proof they did actually believe and for a while were in a saved state to fall from it later in unbelief. For one does not fall/apostatize from unbelief state to an unbelief state.
John 6 does not teach unconditional eternal security and if it did that would render the terms 'apostate' and 'fallen' meaningless.
I specifically asked if God gives sheep to Christ. Does He?John 6:35-40 says "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" and "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day".
Clearly God gives men to Christ. The issue is who and why does God give one person to Christ and not another. God does not randomly, unconditionally give men to Christ for some unknown reason hence from the context it is those who conditionally believe are the ones God gives to Christ and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life, John 6:40
John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
The verbs 'seeth' and 'believeth' are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. "May have" is subjunctive mood. Combining the subjunctive mood with the present tense the verse is showing one MAY or MAY NOT have everlasting life depending upon the circumstance if one continues to seek and believe Christ. This is why the NIV got rid of the subjunctive mood (NIV did the same in John 3:16) and changed it to an indicative mood (shall have) from "may have".
No they are not. There’s no biblical support for this.The seven churches actually existed in John's day, but they are also types of churches throughout history, from the time of John to present day. The church of today is clearly Laodicea, being lukewarm.
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