Maybe God is Time

Resha Caner

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FYI, one other place I hang out is at Philosophy Now. I had planned to mention it just because they printed some of my comments about "the most important question," but coincidentally they also have an article about some of the apparent paradoxes of time.

Did Time Begin With A Bang? | Issue 92 | Philosophy Now
 
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AHJE

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A simple thought, but, IMO, useful.

I have learned from St. Augustine that time is a CREATURE ... so it could not possibly be God.

Furthermore, God transcends time and space and is Himself Eternal.

God bless you. :)
 
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The Engineer

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I have learned from St. Augustine that time is a CREATURE ... so it could not possibly be God.
Wait, time is a creature? :confused: How does that even work?

Furthermore, God transcends time and space and is Himself Eternal.
To me, this whole stuff about God transcending time and space sounds like a saving throw, nothing more.
 
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AHJE

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Wait, time is a creature? :confused: How does that even work?

Time is a measurement according to a before and after and necessarily involves some movement or change of some kind. There is no time without movement, change or transition.

We know from Divine Revelation that "In the Beginning God created" all things visible and invisible. Thus the world and time were created simultaneously and time did not precede the creation of the world because there was no movement or change without the creation of the world.

I guess you could say that time and the world are sort of twins!



To me, this whole stuff about God transcending time and space sounds like a saving throw, nothing more.

Is it because it surpasses your finite intellect and you are not inclined to accept this ceiling of limitation concerning your intelligence?

There is such a thing as finite intelligence and infinite intelligence. :)

God bless you.
 
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AHJE

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"For if eternity and time are rightly distinguished by this, that time does not exist without some movement and transition, while in eternity there is no change, who does not see that there could have been no time had not some creature been made, which by some motion could give birth to change---the various parts of which motion and change, as they cannot be simultaneous, succeed one another---and thus, in these shorter or longer intervals of duration, time would begin? Since then, God, in whose eternity is no change at all, is the Creator and Ordainer of time, I do not see how He can be said to have created the world after spaces of time had elapsed, unless it be said that prior to the world there was some creature by whose movement time could pass. And if the sacred and infallible Scriptures say that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, in order that it may be understood that He had made nothing previously---for if He had made anything before the rest, this thing would rather be said to have been made "in the beginning"---then assuredly the world was made, not in time, but simultaneously with time. For that which is made in time is made both after and before some time---after that which is past, before that which is future. But none could then be past, for there was no creature by whose movements its duration could be measured. But simultaneously with time the world was made, if in the world's creation change and motion were created, as seems evident from the order of the first six or seven days. For in these days the morning and evening are counted, until, on the sixth day, all things which God then made were finished, and on the seventh the rest of God was mysteriously and sublimely signalized. What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say !" (St. Augustine, the City of God, Book XI:6, pg. 350, modern library)

Praised be Jesus Christ.
 
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The Engineer

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Time is a measurement according to a before and after and necessarily involves some movement or change of some kind. There is no time without movement, change or transition.

We know from Divine Revelation that "In the Beginning God created" all things visible and invisible. Thus the world and time were created simultaneously and time did not precede the creation of the world because there was no movement or change without the creation of the world.

I guess you could say that time and the world are sort of twins!
So, how exactly does that make time a creature?

Is it because it surpasses your finite intellect and you are not inclined to accept this ceiling of limitation concerning your intelligence?
No.

There is such a thing as finite intelligence and infinite intelligence.:)
I'd say there is no infinite intelligence, because no system could have enough possible states to model the entire universe (including itself) in an infinitely small amount of time.
 
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Gottservant

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I'd say there is no infinite intelligence, because no system could have enough possible states to model the entire universe (including itself) in an infinitely small amount of time.

I was about to agree with this (I was rather impressed) but then God said to me "No, it can be done, you just need to be infinitely quick"

Sorry.
 
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Gottservant

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Could it be that Time is a Geometrically Aligned System of Constants and that God is both part of that "System" and the "force" which holds it together... making Him equivalent with it (making God the Time that that "System" creates)?

You can imagine that how you experience Time changes as you move around that "System" and that any point, you can reference "God" as a way of negotiating to a different part of that System, such that you experience time differently (because of the "Geometry") but you relate to God in the same way (either because of the fact that the "System" has "Constants" or because it is properly "Aligned" with something that is relevant)... #justthinking
 
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TScott

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I'd say there is no infinite intelligence, because no system could have enough possible states to model the entire universe (including itself) in an infinitely small amount of time.
There is one model where this would work. If God were the entire universe it could be said that God would have infinite intellegence because it would encompass all intellect.

Now, this may not seem to be the same God of the Judeo-Christian model, but actually in most ways it does work. (The obvious difference being that the Judeo-Christian God appears to be a detached entity working independently.) But the idea that God is part of us and speaks to us from within is intact, because in this model we ourselves are actually part of God. This model also fits in very nicely with Isaiah's God's claim that "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil..."

In many ways this model would be more of a ken to the Gnostic concept of God.
 
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KCfromNC

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There is one model where this would work. If God were the entire universe it could be said that God would have infinite intellegence because it would encompass all intellect.

Wouldn't this make God infinitely stupid as well as infinitely evil? If it is going to grab everything in the universe, it gets all of it, not just the good stuff.
 
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TScott

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Wouldn't this make God infinitely stupid as well as infinitely evil? If it is going to grab everything in the universe, it gets all of it, not just the good stuff.
I'm not sure I follow the logic of "infinitely stupid" KC. I would define stupid as lack of knowledge.

But even then, think that if you presented me with a truly "stupid" person, we would be able to find some qualities in said person.
 
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KCfromNC

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I'm not sure I follow the logic of "infinitely stupid" KC. I would define stupid as lack of knowledge.

Lots of well educated people do dumb things despite knowing the consequences.

But even then, think that if you presented me with a truly "stupid" person, we would be able to find some qualities in said person.

Yep, and god would have infinite, or at least maximal, amounts of all of those qualities. Good, bad or neutral, it has every bit of them.
 
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TScott

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Lots of well educated people do dumb things despite knowing the consequences.



Yep, and god would have infinite, or at least maximal, amounts of all of those qualities. Good, bad or neutral, it has every bit of them.

So? I fail to see the point? I already acknowledged that.
 
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decent orange

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Wouldn't this make God infinitely stupid as well as infinitely evil? If it is going to grab everything in the universe, it gets all of it, not just the good stuff.

Infinite can't be grasped on this level. It can be thought about, but can't be contained. Because even describing it with limited language is impossible. How can something be infinitely stupid? Either something is cognitive or not, it can't be infinitely stupid, because awareness ceases at zero intelligence. Something is either alive or dead. But calling dead by the name 'death' gives it a definition, and if it has a definition than it exist, and if it exists it has being... And if it Has being in an infinite universe it is greater than at least SOMETHING, and if its awareness is greater than at least something it... What? I never mind I'm going to bed.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Infinite can't be grasped on this level. It can be thought about, but can't be contained. Because even describing it with limited language is impossible. How can something be infinitely stupid? Either something is cognitive or not, it can't be infinitely stupid, because awareness ceases at zero intelligence. Something is either alive or dead. But calling dead by the name 'death' gives it a definition, and if it has a definition than it exist, and if it exists it has being... And if it Has being in an infinite universe it is greater than at least SOMETHING, and if its awareness is greater than at least something it... What? I never mind I'm going to bed.

If that's how you want to use the term infinite, that's fine.

However, by the same usage, your god is also not infinitely wise. There is a finite amount of knowledge in the universe, so it is impossible to possess infinite knowledge.
 
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decent orange

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If that's how you want to use the term infinite, that's fine.

However, by the same usage, your god is also not infinitely wise. There is a finite amount of knowledge in the universe, so it is impossible to possess infinite knowledge.
I didn't think anyone would take that post seriously, I apologize.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I didn't think anyone would take that post seriously, I apologize.


If you were joking in writing that post, my apologies as well! But yes, Poe's law certainly applies here.... I can guarantee some people would write exactly what you did and be 100% serious.
 
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