May we discuss Adam & Eve?

[Bookofknowledge]

Ever had someone cause you to doubt what you thought you already knew? I think this may be what was going on there.

Normaly people would investigate before taking actions when there is a conflicting information. Based on what you are saying they simply believed everything Satan have said to them?

20:120
- But Shaitan seduced him saying: "O Adam! Should I show you the Tree of Immortality and an everlasting kingdom?"

20:121
They both end up eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. As a result their private parts became apparent to them and they both began to cover themselves with the leaves from the Garden. Thus did Adam disobey His Rabb and go astray.

20:122
Later on Adam repented and his Rabb chose him, accepted his repentance and gave him guidance,

20:123
saying: "Get down from here all of you (Adam, Eve and Iblees); you will remain enemies to one another, whenever there comes to you guidance from Me and whosoever will follow My guidance will neither go astray nor get into trouble;

20:124
but the one who will turn away from My reminder shall live a meager life and We shall raise him back to life as a blind person on the Day of Resurrection."

20:125
He will say: "O Rabb! Why have you raised me up blind here, while I was clear-sighted before?"

20:126
Allah will say: "Just as Our revelation came to you and you played blind; so are you blind today."

20:127
Thus do We reward the one who is a transgressor and does not believe in the revelations of his Rabb. The punishment of the Hereafter is more terrible and more lasting.

20:128
Have these people not learned a lesson that; We have destroyed before them many generations in whose ruins they walk through? Certainly in these ruins there are Signs for people of understanding.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Well if Satan had a choice in heaven to disobey god, Who was satan's, satan. If your saying he had free will to disobey like eve then satan had sin in heaven. If angels have a choice to sin then they are created with sin as well, so they get a free ticket to jesus christ? But jesus died for mans sins, not angels. Explain to me how satan can be satan with free will in the kingdom of heaven and have the choice to rebel without being created a sinner like us.

Did God asked everyone to prostrate to Adam?

 

[dsamuel]

This must of been before they went through puberty and realized if they touch themselves it feels good.

Oh ya thats right in the garden there was no death or decay which means there would be no ageing, except that gravity ages you so I figured adam and eve would be in space.

Oh ya but if there is no gravity because there would be no ageing which means no puberty which means no birth how the hell were there people.

THe only explanation scientific explanation there is, is that the genetic make up of adam and eve were different than humans today.

The hypothalumus of the brain begins puberty for some unknow reason, we dont even know today at the specific age its suppose to by beginning to secret FSHRF (follicle stimulating hormone releasing factor) and ICSH (intersitial cell stimulating hormone releasing factor) which tells the pitutary to start secreating FSH and ICSH.

So God must of had different gentical make up to only reach a certain age and the aging gene must not been active.

Which sounds feesable him being God and all because look how much humans can do now. We might be able to remove the aging gene.

And if this were so in animals as well and there was a different genetical make up as to what a human body need for food Grass vegitation or so then this is theoretically possible.

So if when adam and eve begot knowlege this would of had to change there genetical make up in the human body because the brain can do many things when exposed to sin, I should know I had an anxiety disorder, (and remember sin isnt always neccesarrly doing something bad, To me sin is anything harmful induced action subconciously or not and some is very premeditated) So by this changing the dominant species of the earth mankind to knowlege they would say hey we need to kill and hunt to feed, or meat looks more apitizing lets try that.

The moment you do that you must do it to all life because you have to keep the circle of life.


My point is you can theoretically prove or disprove the bible, when it comes down to it you have to make a choice to find the truth or not to find it. It's up to you and beleiving is a CHOICE.

To sit in your closet and try to beleive isnt trying or making a choice. A choice is always informed and knowlege isnt the only way to be informed we all know that when it comes to faith and spirituality.

I lost my beleifs in a long illness, why me, and may differnt things on how i interpreted things. I've had to make the choice to try and find my faith again and it's a battle. I didnt beleive for awhile.

But i struggle but I'm making my choice.

 

[SolomonVII]

Genesis
Chapter 21 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed. 2 Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation. 4 1 Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-- 5 while as yet there was no field shrub on earth and no grass of the field had sprouted, for the LORD God had sent no rain upon the earth and there was no man to till the soil, 6 but a stream was welling up out of the earth and was watering all the surface of the ground-- 7 2 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being. 8 3 Then the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and he placed there the man whom he had formed. 9 Out of the ground the LORD God made various trees grow that were delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. 10 4 A river rises in Eden to water the garden; beyond there it divides and becomes four branches. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it is the one that winds through the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 The gold of that land is excellent; bdellium and lapis lazuli are also there. 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it is the one that winds all through the land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it is the one that flows east of Asshur. The fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it. 16 The LORD God gave man this order: "You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden 17 except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die." 18 The LORD God said: "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him." 19 So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man. 21 So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, 23 5 the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has been taken." 24 6 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. 25 The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.

 

[SolomonVII]

Genesis
Chapter 31 1 Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, "Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?" 2 The woman answered the serpent: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.'" 4 But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die! 5 1 No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad." 6 The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves. 8 2 When they heard the sound of the LORD God moving about in the garden at the breezy time of the day, the man and his wife hid themselves from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 The LORD God then called to the man and asked him, "Where are you?" 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself." 11 Then he asked, "Who told you that you were naked? You have eaten, then, from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!" 12 The man replied, "The woman whom you put here with me--she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it." 13 The LORD God then asked the woman, "Why did you do such a thing?" The woman answered, "The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it." 14 Then the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures; On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life. 15 3 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." 16 To the woman he said: "I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master." 17 To the man he said: "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat, "Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. 18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat, Until you return to the ground, from which you were taken; For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return." 20 4 The man called his wife Eve, because she became the mother of all the living. 21 For the man and his wife the LORD God made leather garments, with which he clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever." 23 The LORD God therefore banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he had been taken. 24 5 When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[dsamuel]

Oh God no offence but I hate it when someone says something and another person just publishes a bunch of scripture with no commentary are any opinion. You can totally disregard your last two posts because it's ridiculous. Another person spewing words out of the bible with no opinion of interpretation.

What are you trying to prove?

 

[lilithrising]

Gilgamesh and Marduk are said to have been giants in stature, does that make it so? A society's myth likes to grandois their heroes, it doesn't make it fact. Literalism destroys the message.

lilithrising

"Thus the early societies learned that "the essence of life is that it lives by killing and eating; that's the great mystery that the myths have to deal with." Campbell

 

[Bookofknowledge]

OK... Can anyone tell me where we are and what people are trying to say?

Am I lost!!!

 

[Delta One]

Bookofknowledge,

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that Satan is not an angel kind though he was one among the high ranking. Angels and Jinns are created differently and my understanding is that Satan is among the Jinn kind.

Obviously since both of our holy books talk differently of Satan, then they both cannot be correct. Also, since we cannot test anything in the Spirtual world, we cannot be sure on which book is right and which one is wrong. But we can test both books on what they say about things in the physical world - this is where, IMO, the Bible wins heads down.

Anyway, the Bible only - to my knowledge - mentions angels and not "jinns". We are told in the Bible that Satan was the highest ranking angel who's pride got to him and he caused a rebellion in heaven against God, consequently God threw him and his cronies (also angels - we call them fallen angels or demons) out of heaven and away from His presence. Note that we both believe two different and contradictory accounts so we will never be able to agree with this and since this is a spirtual matter, we cannot test or prove either case. Hence why it is important to test what the two holy books say about the physical world that we live in today... If, for example, the Qur'an fails to be accurate in physical matters that we can test and observe, then why should we trust what it says about spirtual matters? The same would be true of the Bible IF it failed to be accurate on physical matters that we can test.

Though he once had a high position but don't forget he was created by God and was obediant to God untill he choose to disobey God by not prostrating to Adam when God commanded everyone to prostrate.

In the Bible none of the angels are called to "prostrate" to Adam (hence the contradictory nature of the Qur'an and the Bible.

With regards to Eve getting into the trap of Satan merly because she would be like God in that she would know what is good and what is bad is quite not right because we have to understand the learning ability of Adam and Eve. Did God didn't taught them what they knew not? Didn't she knew there is none comparable to God or did God didn't taught them there is none equal to God?

According to the Bible neither Adam nor Eve had knowledge of what is good and what is bad, when they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that is when they acquired this knowledge, Then the LORD God said, "Now the man has become like one of us and has knowledge of what is good and what is bad" (Genesis 3:22). Eve wasn't tricked into thinking that she could be as powerful or such as God, only that she would be like God in knowing "good" from "bad", which is what the serpent said in Genesis 3:5.

Can you give me the verse number and then is it a Bible verse or is it from Qur'aan? Give me the chapter and verse number please, you have given the verse number but not the chapter number...

It is supposedly a verse from the Qur'an as quoted by the thread creator in the opening post. I assume that you should know your own holy book and the verses in it. Obviously, since this is reference to creation then it would be at the start of your book a chapter or so in -- I sure don't know the Islamic book.

 

[bless_sins]

Salam,

To Delta One:
The Quran although shorter in lenght then the Bible is still pretty vast, and if some one quotes something they must provide reference.

Also Quran is not arranged te way the Bible is. Since Quran (unlike the Bible) is not a historical book, rather a book of guidance, it starts with an introductory prayer, and then goes on to lay the fundamentals of guidance. Therefore verses regarding ifferent aspects of creation will be scattered in different parts of the Quran, categorized by how we can learn from them.

 

[Arthra]

Delta wrote:

Obviously since both of our holy books talk differently of Satan, then they both cannot be correct.

Reply:

That scriptures may vary in how they address an issue doesn't mean one has to be true and the other false... They could represent different perspectives that are not actually contradictory...just as in some fields where a different answer would be applicable to a problem. Saying one HAS to be true and the other false is too simplistic and maybe dualistic.

Delta:

Also, since we cannot test anything in the Spirtual world, we cannot be sure on which book is right and which one is wrong.

Reply:

If you only interpret literally i think you may miss underlying principles or concepts that are shared in varying texts.

Delta:

In the Bible none of the angels are called to "prostrate" to Adam (hence the contradictory nature of the Qur'an and the Bible.

Comment:

Simply because one text has a lesson or story not found in the other doesn't mean they are contradictory. There were early legends that satan being an angel for instance of light "lucifer" became consumed in his own beauty and ergo wanted man to prostrate to him or that he was more worthy of worship than God...the battle in heaven is another example.. Michael vrs. Satan, etc.

But simply because a different perspective is used doesn't invalidate one or the other... It means there are distinctions.

 

[S Walch]

Delta wrote:

Obviously since both of our holy books talk differently of Satan, then they both cannot be correct.

Reply:

That scriptures may vary in how they address an issue doesn't mean one has to be true and the other false... They could represent different perspectives that are not actually contradictory...just as in some fields where a different answer would be applicable to a problem. Saying one HAS to be true and the other false is too simplistic and maybe dualistic.

Wrong.

They ARE contradictory.

In the Bible, Satan is a Fallen Angel.

In the Quran, Satan is a Jinn - a seperate being from an Angel

Using Aristotales 'Law of Non-contradiction' and 'law of the excluded Middle' we must therefore come to three conclusions:

1. The Bible is correct and the Quran is Wrong about Satan
2. The Quran is right and the bible is wrong about Satan
3. They're both wrong about Satan.

Both cannot, due to the two laws stated above, be correct.

Either one is right, or both are wrong.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

....In the Quran, Satan is a Jinn - a seperate being from an Angel....

Wrong ! Please ask if you dont know. In this case you dont know. In Islam there are different types of "Angels" in Arabic "Malaa'ikah" which literally means "errand runners".

*There are Angels by nature that are created from light

*There are Angels by status that are by nature Jinns created from fire and that are Arwaah (plural of Rooh ie Spirit).

All angels have different ranks:

Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels messengers with wings, two, or three, or four (pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things. 35:1

Iblis the occursed devil was an angel by status whom was demoted cause of his disobeidience :

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."


(Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." 7:11-13 Quran

Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? and they are enemies to you! evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! 18:50 Quran

And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind. 15:27 Quran

Arwaah or Rooh as Angels:

The angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years: 70:4 Quran

The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and he will say what is right. 78:38 Quran

Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand: 97:4 Quran

The biggest mistake an indoctrinated Christian mind can make is understanding Islam through another Christian and approaching the Quran with an indoctrinated biblical prestige.

 

[S Walch]

Wrong ! Please ask if you dont know. In this case you dont know. In Islam there are different types of "Angels" in Arabic "Malaa'ikah" which literally means "errand runners".

*There are Angels by nature that are ceated from light

*There are Angels by status that are by nature Jinns created from fire and that are Arwaah (plural of Rooh ie Spirit).

All angels have different ranks:



Iblis the occursed devil was an angel by status whom was demoted cause of his disobeidience :



Arwaah or Rooh as Angels:



The biggest mistake an indoctrinated Christian mind can make is understanding Islam through another Christian and approaching the Quran with an indoctrinated biblical prestige.

"Actually, in the Qur'an, jinn and angels differ from one another as entities. Jinn are unseen beings, created from fire, but are not angels. there are good and evil jinn, some of whom are found in the Islamic [depiction of] hell, their faces covered with fire (surah 14:49-50).

Surah adh-Dhariyat (51:56): "(Allah says), I have only created Jinns and men so that they may serve me."

In suran ar- rahman (55:15), Muhammed says, "And he created Jinns from fire free from smoke."

As [the] Muslim Scholar [Abdullah yusuf 'Ali] notes [in "the meaning of the Holy Qur'an"]: They are spirits, and therefore subtle like a flame of fire. Their being free from smoke implies that they are free from grossness, for smoke is a grosser accompaniment of fire."
In the Qur'anic depiction of the fall of Satan (Iblis), he is called an angel, but Muslim commentators note that this is a reference to jinn

[Abdullah yusuf] 'Ali states that there are no fallen angels in Muslim theology Iblis is spoken of as a jinn. Surah al-Kahf 18:50 bears this out.

Behold! We say to the angels, "Bow down to adam": they bowed down except Iblis. he was one of the Jinns, and he broke the command of his Lord. Will ye then take him as his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And (the demonis) are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers!

Taken from 'More than a Prophet' (things in '[ ]' are added by me)

I'd also like to know how Surah 35:1 at all refers to Angels having "ranks".

All it says that Allah makes Angels with different ammounts of wings, but not that the ones with fewer wing are less in rank than those with more.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Actually, in the Qur'an, jinn and angels differ from one another as entities. Jinn are unseen beings, created from fire, but are not angels. there are good and evil jinn, some of whom are found in the Islamic [depiction of] hell, their faces covered with fire (surah 14:49-50).

Do you know what the status of something is different from its nature ? Your post is irrelevant to the topic in relation to of Angelic Status.

Funny, we posted Quranic verses that makes is explicitly clear and you run to commentary that contradcits the context of which was posted. I already posted the relevant verses from the Quran that shows Iblis (arjm) is a Jinn that was an Angel by status, not by nature, that Allah reliquished him from . If you want to have a commentary war then all you had to do was ask

Sorrowful muslims that get attacked by Christian negligence to understand the context of the verses, sought to compomise the context. Thus they themselves being influenced by christian dogma that precieve the Quran in like manner with vereses that may relate to Biblical events.

I'd also like to know how Surah 35:1 at all refers to Angels having "ranks".

All it says that Allah makes Angels with different ammounts of wings, but not that the ones with fewer wing are less in rank than those with more.

Wow, you were doing such a good job in quoting commentary why stop now ? You quoted Abdullah Yusuf Ali why not quote him again, should we do it for you ? Your source quotes Abdullah Ali but yet ignored Abdullah's commentary on Iblis having the status of an Angel ugh

 

[S Walch]

Funny, we posted Quranic verses that makes is explicitly clear and you run to commentary that contradcits the context of which was posted. I already posted the relevant verses from the Quran that shows Iblis (arjm) is a Jinn that was an Angel by status, not by nature, that Allah reliquished him from . If you want to have a commentary war then all you had to do was ask

War?

I wanted no such thing.

Is everytime someone posts something an automatic "War on islam" ?

Are you telling me that 'Ali, as a Ulema is wrong in what he has said then?

Plus, I don't see hte Qur'an saying that Jinn are a different status of Angels.

If I'm missing it in one of the surah's you've posted, please highlight it for me.

Wow, you were doing such a good job in quoting commentary why stop now ? You quoted Abdullah Yusuf Ali why not quote him again, should we do it for you ? Your source quotes Abdullah Ali but yet ignored Abdullah's commentary on Iblis having the status of an Angel[/font]

He does?

Book and page number - I shall look it up.

 

[Delta One]

dsamuel,

THe only explanation scientific explanation there is, is that the genetic make up of adam and eve were different than humans today.



There is no scientific explaination. Have you ever thought about God's sustaining power being the reason - remember back to the Israelites as they wondered through the desert for fourty years where the Bible tells us that their clothing did not wear, their feet did not swell, their shoes did not fall apart? This is the total opposite of what happens today. God was sustaining His people from the negative decaying effects of the second law of thermodynamics. This makes sense as God, the Creator of all the laws that govern His creation, should and does have the ability to over ride them and negate their effects.



There are also levels of death that I don't believe God considers as "moral death", the "death" of plants, for example, as all the animals ate them. Cell death may or may not be considered by God to be "moral death".



To me sin is anything harmful induced action subconciously or not and some is very premeditated.



What is sin to God? Sin is first defined in Genesis as rebellion against God and His commands... For example, Jonah was told to go to Nineveh by God, yet he sinned when he did not -- this was not "harmful" to anyone.



I lost my beleifs in a long illness, why me, and may differnt things on how i interpreted things. I've had to make the choice to try and find my faith again and it's a battle. I didnt beleive for awhile.



As have many people; the truly sad thing is that these people most likely wouldn't have given up their faith if they knew and believed the true history of death as recorded in the Bible. To find out more I suggest that you read the article Why is there Suffering and Death?

 

[Delta One]

Hi Arthra,

Before I start my replies, I must say that I like the way that you set out your posts!

That scriptures may vary in how they address an issue doesn't mean one has to be true and the other false... They could represent different perspectives that are not actually contradictory...just as in some fields where a different answer would be applicable to a problem. Saying one HAS to be true and the other false is too simplistic and maybe dualistic.

Consider if we have a piece of fruit lying on the table and I say that it is an apple and you say that it is a bananna. Obviously the fruit cannot be both an apple and a bananna - it has to be either one or the other because an apple and a bananna have contradictory features as well as taste...

Similarly, applying this same logic to this argument, you say that from your holy text that Satan was a jinn, while the Bible says that Satan was an angel. Someone earlier made a distinction between a "jinn" and an "angel". Obviously, the same person can't be both a jinn and an angel at the same time because they have contradictory characteristics.

Further consider that Adam and Eve were not created (according to your religion) on Earth but in heaven where everything had to bow down to man. The Bible's account is totally contradictory in that man was created on Earth and no heavenly body had to bow down to him. Obviously, either your version is right and mine is wrong, or mine is right and yours is wrong.

If you only interpret literally i think you may miss underlying principles or concepts that are shared in varying texts.

I recognize the similarites that occur in both texts - and we should expect this because of how Islam came from Esua? and before that the Mosanic period. But, I also look at the differences between our two texts which are indeed greater than the small similarites.

Simply because one text has a lesson or story not found in the other doesn't mean they are contradictory.

Mankind, according to the Bible I believe, was made lower than all the angels, yet we will end up being higher than them all through our LORD Jesus Christ (kind of weird hey?). Another difference is the location and name of the Garden - you say Aden while Christians call it "Eden" - which was on Earth.

IMO the two accounts contain contradictory accounts and thus both cannot be true. That said, we could argue this until the cows come home and still not get anywhere. It has been nice talking to you...

 

[SolomonVII]

Oh God no offence but I hate it when someone says something and another person just publishes a bunch of scripture with no commentary are any opinion. You can totally disregard your last two posts because it's ridiculous. Another person spewing words out of the bible with no opinion of interpretation.

What are you trying to prove?

Someone was asking for references.
It occurred to me that me that there may be many Moslems that may not even know where to find the story of Adam and Even in the bible.
The actual story is very small, really.
So what the hey.
I posted it.
or, as some might state, I spewed it.
Personally, though, since 'spew' is the word that I use to describe vomit, I would never say such a thing about my Holy Book.

And yes, I think that my last two books -ie the story of Adam and Eve from Genesis- will be totally disregarded.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

War?

I wanted no such thing.

Is everytime someone posts something an automatic "War on islam" ?

Ugh ! "..Commentary War.." <~~~ facetious comment. Have you looked into the various schools of thought on the subject ? You pointed out one particular interpretation to giving the notion as though it is a reality accepted by the whole muslims world.

Are you telling me that 'Ali, as a Ulema is wrong in what he has said then?

Do you think muslims look at scholars as being infalible ? They are many people who disagree with Ali commentary and his translation of the Quran which has to be revised cause of errors made in rendition that have been reported after time after time. Check out the latest edition.

Plus, I don't see hte Qur'an saying that Jinn are a different status of Angels.

If I'm missing it in one of the surah's you've posted, please highlight it for me.

Maybe cause your too focussed on commentary rather than focussing on the the verses.

I am not a "yes man" that every scholar that says something is taken as is with out evaluating his interpretation. Some muslims may do this, but this muslims does not.

He does?

Book and page number - I shall look it up.

Umm you wouldnt want to use a page number cause their numberous editions of translation that vary in page number. Quoting commentary number would be better to find. here let us help you on this one :

(2:34) #49 "The arabic may also be translated: " They bowed down, except Iblis." In that case Iblis (Satan) would be one of the angels. But the theory of fallen angels is not usually accepted in Muslim theology. In xviii. 50, Iblis is spoken of as a Jinn. We shall discuss later the meaning of this word."

(6:100) #929 " Jinns : who are they ? In xviii. 50 we are told that Iblis one of he Jinns, and it is suggested that that was why he disobeyed the Command of God. But in that passage and other similar passages, we are told that He commanded the angels to bow down to Adam, and they obeyed except Iblis. That implies that Iblis had been of the company of the angels. In many passaged Jinns and men are spoken of together. In lv. 14-15, man is stated to have been created from clay, while Jinns from a flame of fire. the root meaning janna, yajinnu, is "to be covered or hidden," and janna yajunnu, in the active voice, "to cover or hide", as in vi. 76. Some people say that Jinn therefore means the hidden qualities or capacities in man; others that it means wild or jungle folk hidden in the hills or forests. I do not wish to be dogmatic, but I think, from a collation and study of the Quranic passages, that the meaning is simple " a spirit," or an invisible or hidden force. In folk-lore stories and romances like the Arabian Nights they become personified into fantastic forms, but with them we are not concerned here.

And yes you over looked what the Quran said in the verses I posted:

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We said to the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."

(Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." 7:11-13 Quran

Verse 13 above says in Arabic "fahbiT minhaa" ~ "Get out or get down from it" Thus he was relinquished from a status. This was no refering to him getting out of the Jannah cause later he is in the jannah tempting Adam and his wife when they all are told to get down from the Jannah to the Earth.

He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."

(Allah) said: "Be thou amongst those who have respite."


He said: "Because Thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy Straight Way:


"Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for Thy mercies)."


(Allah) said: "Come out from it (?), disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, Hell will I fill with you all. 7:14-18

Lets see he was told twice in different wording in arabic 1) "fahbiT minhaa" ie Get out or get down from it, and 2) "ikhraj minhaa" ie Come out of it

Thus he was cursed by G-d as "Expelled and Disgraced". I am sure you know what this could only be refering to now. Following after this the devil is in the garden tempting Adam and his wife as he promissed he would do to mislead them. After this, then all of them were sent down to the Earth.