May Russian Orthodox church split due to Crimea? (moved from main TAW forum)

[Alonso_Castillo]

Hi there, What do you think about consequences of a more nationalistic Ukraine that after Crimea referendum may lose territory to russia. Can Ukraine Orthodox Church get recognized as a new patriarchate?

 

[ArmyMatt]

dunno, it's in God's hands. just so long as there is no schism and the violence quells, I am down

 

[Dylan Michael]

From what I've heard, Patriarch Kirill is not supporting Russia's actions.

 

[Mariya116]

No. It's not that big of a deal.

 

[Steinbeck]

The so-called Kiev Patriarchate is a schismatic body. The only canonical Orthodox church in Ukraine is the autonomous church under the Moscow Patriarchate. All the Orthodox world recognizes this, and the situation isn't going to change due to worldly politics.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Ukranian church has been split for centuries. That's precisely why there's so many problems there.

 

[SeventhValley]

Why is the Ukrainian church unorthodox? Their Bishop is just as equal as any other bishop and decided to go it without Russia. I though there was no popes in Orthodoxy?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why is the Ukrainian church unorthodox? Their Bishop is just as equal as any other bishop and decided to go it without Russia. I though there was no popes in Orthodoxy?

no the Ukrainian Church is Orthodox, it's just that the Orthodox one is the one still under Moscow. there is one of the schismatic Ukrainian groups that is in dialogue with Moscow to return to communion with canonical Orthodoxy.

the problem with Ukraine is that there are more than one schismatic groups that consider themselves Orthodox.

 

[Kristos]

Why is the Ukrainian church unorthodox? Their Bishop is just as equal as any other bishop and decided to go it without Russia. I though there was no popes in Orthodoxy?

Communion comes first. You can't be equal when you are alone.

 

[SeventhValley]

Communion comes first. You can't be equal when you are alone.

I don't see how that is different from having a Pope if Moscow decides who is or is not Orthodox.

 

[RobNJ]

I don't see how that is different from having a Pope if Moscow decides who is or is not Orthodox.

Because, deciding you're going to walk out & start your own church, makes you Protestant, not Orthodox

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Of course I was refering to The Orthodox canonical church in Ukraine wich is part of the Moscow patriarchate.

Can The Patriarch of Constantinople recognize the autocephaly of a new Kiev Patriarchate (not the current uncanonical one) and if this recognitions gets widespread acceptance from Antioch, Alexandry, Jerusalem, etc. except by Moscow. What side would you be in? Constantinople or Moscow?

 

[SeventhValley]

So if the Ukrainian church is heretical how dose the OCA become not heretical if no one has communion with it?

 

[buzuxi02]

The whole basis for being recognized as a patriarchate is the ability to have expanded jurisdiction; not neccesarily confined to national boundaries. A kievan patriarch is complete nonsense. When Greece recieved autocephaly the bishop of athens became archbishop of athens and all of Greece. No greek would ever recognize him as a patriarch as greeks recognize the EP being their patriarch. But slavs tend to use terms differently

Secondly there cannot be multiple synods all claiming to be the one and same local church in the one and same territory. There can only be one canonical synod and in ukraine there are 4 competing synods but only one is canonical.

 

[buzuxi02]

So if the Ukrainian church is heretical how dose the OCA become not heretical if no one has communion with it?

The OCA was schismatic from 1947-1969.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

So if the Ukrainian church is heretical how dose the OCA become not heretical if no one has communion with it?

We're in communion.

Mary

 

[SeventhValley]

Byzantine response to Orthodox Church in America autocephaly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If they are not accepted by all churches then how would they not be heretical?

 

[SeventhValley]

Nm

 

[buzuxi02]

There is a huge difference. All the churches in America are recognized by their mother churches and by each other. There arent 3 GOARCHS, there arent 2 Antiochan synods etc.

Also in America there is no established precedence of a single canonical territory ruled by a specific synod which would violate canonical norms.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The OCA is accepted by all since 1969, what no one accepts is their autocephaly. Autocephaly and canonicity are two seperate things.In fact they dont really accept it themselves.

no, about 1/3 accept our autocephaly, 1/3 reject it, and 1/3 have stated neither for or against.