May Russian Orthodox church split due to Crimea? (moved from main TAW forum)

[Alonso_Castillo]

My question is Because Moscow patriarchate currently doesn't have communion with Estonian Autocephaly though Constantinople's does.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Estonian church is not autocephalous its autonomous.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

The Estonian church is not autocephalous its autonomous.

Is it, or was it, under Moscow Patriarchate jurisdiction?

 

[buzuxi02]

All these things happened during a time of extreme chaos. Both in the greek sphere as the ottomon empire disintegrated and the rise of the bolsheviks in the slavic world.

These irregular arrangements go back during these times and can be justified by ukase 362.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@Alonso_Castillo

GOD knows what we will see in future. Nobody could expect that mr.Putin&Co will make focus with Crimea "a couple" weeks ago. But is as is.

I remember spirit will/bequest of one so-so famous elder from Ukraine (R.I.P. 29.08.2002). Google translation:

Strictly keep the Russian Orthodox Church and the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.In case of withdrawal of Ukraine from Moscow, whatever the autocephaly lawless or "legitimate " is automatically interrupted connection with Metropolitan of Kiev .Monasteries then existing form House of Mercy, who will perform the holy laws of mercy - to serve people before their burial , and this commandment should perform abode forever. No threats and curses do not recognize because they are not canonical and lawless .Stand firm for the canons of the Russian Orthodox Church. In the case of separation from the unity of the Russian Orthodox Church - the ruling bishop does not exist, go to monasteries Stauropegial control to the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. I pray to God and hope that His Holiness Patriarch not refuse and take under its omophorion .If it shall be impossible, the monasteries come under independent control in the likeness of the abbot of the Valaam monastery beginning of this century , under the guise of being bright future times unity of Ukraine and Russia , who deeply believe inevitably will come with what and go into eternity.

So make conclusions.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@Dr.Adam

that Catholic Ukrainians have been very concerned in the Crimea - if they are not nazi so havent serious need to care about something. But all(including as priests as parishioners) from Orthodox Church of MP are in troubles now in Ukraine.
-

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@Dr.Adam

The "Nazi" angle is what Putin is putting forward in his state run media. - yes, yes. Its all about Russia and Putin: Иди и смотри - бандеровцы, как они есть. - Юго-Восток и Крым против путчистов. Хроника событий - Журналистская правда

U r not alone in this way of thinking. Next stage will be: Putin has paid to all these crazy nazi for their "freaking".

The struggle of Ukraine is about democracy - "democracy" in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjxOk_Lnw_s (deputy of Ukranian and co beat director of tv-channel for showing speech of Putin about Crimea. Freedom of word in understanding of current "maidans democracy")

just little bonus about real struggles -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtyOSnX8ebU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrSe2Csi7i0

 

[Philothei]

The "Nazi" angle is what Putin is putting forward in his state run media. The struggle of Ukraine is about democracy, as opposed to the real fascist ruling Russia.

There is such a thing as true Democracy? Nah...representative democracy is not that.... it is res publica.... It is a shame to use this word so ....lopsely...In our times it is just hypocrisy

 

[SeventhValley]

Nazi is just political speak for Ukrainian nationalist from what I have read.

All nations are hypocrites which is why the church cannot be a national entity(my opinion).

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

from my prospective Putin has made everything needed for Ukrainians to want to put more distance to Moscow even in religious matter, and in fact since january, Moscow patriarchate and Constantinople's patriarchate have had tensions about many matters of primacy in the orthodox church. I also remmember that years ago the then president of Ukrsine requested Patriarch Bartholomew to let Ukrainian synod to be autonomous and autocephalus, It was during the celebration of 1000 years of the conversión of the king of the russ to christianity marked as the 1000 years of christianity in Russia.

If Orthodox churches do not legitimate the aspiration of kiev to have an independent church not submited to Russia president Putin, What then? would nationalistic Ukrainians look towards Kiev patriarchate or towards The Greek Catholic Church of Ukraine?

Pressure is for Patriarch Bartholomew to take desicions and to find support in the rest of the Patriarchs.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Nazi is just political speak for Ukrainian nationalist from what I have read.

All nations are hypocrites which is why the church cannot be a national entity(my opinion).

the problem is that orthodoxy understands regional jurisdiction of churches as a matter of territorial dominion of the ruling state.

In the case of the Catholic Church, popes have fought against the idea of being subjected to state interests,

 

[Thekla]

The "Nazi" angle is what Putin is putting forward in his state run media. The struggle of Ukraine is about democracy, as opposed to the real fascist ruling Russia.

Nazi is just political speak for Ukrainian nationalist from what I have read.

All nations are hypocrites which is why the church cannot be a national entity(my opinion).

It seems pretty clear by now there is a far right/fascist element present; it seems one side exaggerates its presence, the other denies its presence. As always, it's somewhere in between

Re: democracy, it seems to me that most of those involved in the Maidan protests truly desire this and, as usual, less "desirable elements" expoited the opportunity this presented; unfortunately, though not much reported, the impeachment of Yanukovitch was not in accord with the Ukranian constitution, nor is the present govt. Unfortunately, some elements in the new govt. acted provocatively (voting to repeal minority language rights - Romanian, Hungarian, Russian - decriminalizing Nazi material), which stoked fear (see Croatia, 1991 etc.) among regions that already had been effectively disenfranchised by the irregularities in the impeachment process.

God with the people of Ukraine, Crimea, and Russia +

This sort of thing is always a tangled mess ...

 

[buzuxi02]

Democracy lol. These people are already free. By summer they will still vacation on the beaches usually the women topless as is customary. Believe me these people dont know what hardship is.

 

[Lukaris]

I want to reiterate that I feel sorry for Ukraine in this situation & in its troubled history with Russia & later the Soviet Union. I also believe that the US/NATO Axis has been probing to find a soft spot in Russia's armor for a long time (Kosovo. Syria, Georgia, Ukraine etc.) usually with mad dog McCain of Arizona agitating in the forefront.

 

[buzuxi02]

Mccain must be mentally ill. With people like him running this country its no wonder I always keep my passport up to date. The thing is now with all the information people see that NATO are hippocrites. People are now realizing that it is us in the west that need to be sanctioned.

They are afraid of the reconsitituion of the Soviet Union? Why? If the Russian Kingdom was still powerful the United States would not be in the trouble we are in. Because as a counterbalance we would never have gotten involved in Iraq or Libya or Egypt or Afghanistan. Without the checks and balances the United States and Nato have run amok with no one to step in to save them from self destruction.

Only a complete idiot would think that 9/11 would have still happened with a powerful Russian Empire in the region. Bin Laden turned on America precisely because there no longer was a powerful Russia. America became the new satan. Terrorism was spawned precisely because of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

What is there to feel sorry about Ukraine? That they don't have large sprawling homes with 2 car garages? Well most of the planet doesn't have that neither. Its laughable when I see these eastern Europeans crying poverty when their standard of living is above par. They have their own customs and culture and a laid back attitude, again do alittle research on how "liberated" their women are. All you have to do is go to one of their protests for a peep show.

 

[SeventhValley]

I would rather be in the US a more Christian nation than any other.

I would not be surprised if the US has more church going Orthodox than Russia.

We are not perfect but are far better than the godless Europe and Russia where atheism reigns. Far better than the Islamic states that support authoritarian regimes. A rival would reinvigorate the Christian soul in America by making us appreciate what a great Christian nation we have.

 

[buzuxi02]

From what I see all supposed Christian nations have church attendance in the single digits. Now one nation maybe more Christian than another, if one has church attendance of 4% and another nation has attendance of 8%, it is double.

Now if we are naive enough to believe the polls Americans attends weekly services at like 38%. Yeah ok, I'm sure there are 110,000,000 people going to church on 10am on a Sunday.
Oh the rush hour traffic at that time! Lol.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

well, Filipinas and Mexico perhaps do have church atendance of 15% or little higher, though we do not have rush hour traffic because catholic church celebrates mass from 7:00am to 9:00pm in sundays

 

[Thekla]

I would rather be in the US a more Christian nation than any other.

I would not be surprised if the US has more church going Orthodox than Russia.

We are not perfect but are far better than the godless Europe and Russia where atheism reigns. Far better than the Islamic states that support authoritarian regimes. A rival would reinvigorate the Christian soul in America by making us appreciate what a great Christian nation we have.

Russia has emerged from an enforced state atheism and Christian persecution of the USSR; it is not surprising it is taking time for her renewal.

Otoh, the "west" has other problems, as Christianity is increasingly becoming more secularized. (iirc, a poll among Christians a few years ago found that about 1/2 thought Jesus had sinned at some time in His life.)

There is no perfect nation state to be in ....

 

[buzuxi02]

well, Filipinas and Mexico perhaps do have church atendance of 15% or little higher, though we do not have rush hour traffic because catholic church celebrates mass from 7:00am to 9:00pm in sundays

That would be high, though I doubt it. Most polls put russian church attendance at about 4 percent. That is actually high! Nordic countries average 2-3 percent with Estonia averages 1% church attendance. The rest of europe is not that much higher nor is the US or Canada.