Matthew 25:46

[wendykvw]

True, but none of that is advocating for the OP's idea of everyone going to purgatory in order to back up their UR belief, and that being put into hell temporarily is what purifies us to be acceptable for God.
There is chastisement during sanctification, but that's an earthly process.

Because that's ultimately what this is about, pushing a UR belief and for them somehow it's everyone going to hell temporarily is how you eventually get saved. They'll put a Jesus veneer on it, but Jesus is not sufficient for that reconciliation.
Where it crosses a line, and I mean this is part of what caused the reformation in the first place, is the belief that Christ's atonement is not enough, you have to go through purgatory anyway, and it is purgatory that reconciles you to God.

I'd almost be sympathetic, even though disagreeing with it strongly because of a lack of scripture to back it up on, of the idea of unbelievers going through some sort of purgatory until they turn to Christ, even though that's not what the bible teaches, I can understand the desire for unsaved family members to have a 'second chance' to find salvation.

But as Jesus taught in Luke 16... the rich man didn't have a way out.

but where I lose my sympathy for that idea completely.. is teaching that those in Christ are also tormented in a mini hell until their impurities are "burned away". Because that makes the death of Christ meaningless. Because wasn't the point of their initial rabbit trail they started following based on the idea that a person in hell will eventually turn to Christ and be saved? For those who already turned to Christ.. putting them through hell too?

at that point I'm gonna have to say Galatians 1:8.

I mean the two of us? We're just arguing semantics.
Both of us are going to say that salvation involves a changed life.
For my part at least, the changed life is a result, and it is BECAUSE you are saved, and is not a part of HOW you get saved.
and I guess that's the nitty gritty for me. That sanctification is a result not a means of salvation.
I hope you can understand and agree with that.

Christ is sufficient and atoned for all sinners. All are justified, all are redeemed. Sanctification/Purification is a process, and that process may not be completed during this life time.


Along similar lines, in Luke 12 Jesus taught:

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ” (Lk 12:47-48).

 

[wendykvw]

This purification is necessary as to prepare as a bride makes herself ready for the return of her groom (Rev. 19:7) which is why Peter says that “judgment begins with God’s household” (1 Pet 4:17).

 

[fhansen]

True, but none of that is advocating for the OP's idea of everyone going to purgatory in order to back up their UR belief, and that being put into hell temporarily is what purifies us to be acceptable for God.
There is chastisement during sanctification, but that's an earthly process.

Because that's ultimately what this is about, pushing a UR belief and for them somehow it's everyone going to hell temporarily is how you eventually get saved. They'll put a Jesus veneer on it, but Jesus is not sufficient for that reconciliation.
Where it crosses a line, and I mean this is part of what caused the reformation in the first place, is the belief that Christ's atonement is not enough, you have to go through purgatory anyway, and it is purgatory that reconciles you to God.

I'd almost be sympathetic, even though disagreeing with it strongly because of a lack of scripture to back it up on, of the idea of unbelievers going through some sort of purgatory until they turn to Christ, even though that's not what the bible teaches, I can understand the desire for unsaved family members to have a 'second chance' to find salvation.

But as Jesus taught in Luke 16... the rich man didn't have a way out.

but where I lose my sympathy for that idea completely.. is teaching that those in Christ are also tormented in a mini hell until their impurities are "burned away". Because that makes the death of Christ meaningless. Because wasn't the point of their initial rabbit trail they started following based on the idea that a person in hell will eventually turn to Christ and be saved? For those who already turned to Christ.. putting them through hell too?

at that point I'm gonna have to say Galatians 1:8.

I mean the two of us? We're just arguing semantics.
Both of us are going to say that salvation involves a changed life.
For my part at least, the changed life is a result, and it is BECAUSE you are saved, and is not a part of HOW you get saved.
and I guess that's the nitty gritty for me. That sanctification is a result not a means of salvation.
I hope you can understand and agree with that.

I didn’t catch that it was being used to support UR. Historically the teaching acknowledges that no sinners enter heaven as Scripture attests, but that most if not all will die with some sin which means they’re still not sold out to God first above all else. They’re not opposed to Him by being committed to persistent sin so grave as to constitute direct opposition to love of Himself and neighbor, sin that leads to death IOW, and yet they’re not fully in love with God and neighbor either. Attraction to sin still lingers. The doctrine has nothing to do with hell.

 

[Jamdoc]

No, but Jesus did say this to those who serve Him…

“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ” (Lk 12:47-48).

Earthly chastisement. Hebrews 12:5-8. Not "we all go to hell until we're purified by fire after we die"

 

[Jamdoc]

I didn’t catch that it was being used to support UR. Historically the teaching acknowledges that no sinners enter heaven as Scripture attests, but that most if not all will die with some sin which means they’re still not sold out to God first above all else. They’re not opposed to Him by being committed to persistent sin so grave as to constitute direct opposition to love of Himself and neighbor, sin that leads to death IOW, and yet they’re not fully in love with God and neighbor either. Attraction to sin still lingers. The doctrine has nothing to do with hell.

Well the way Jesus taught it, there wasn't a post death ordeal that believers went through before they could be with Him in paradise.

A man dying next to Jesus, all he said was confessing his sin, knowing he was getting the punishment he deserved, and called Jesus Lord and asked Jesus to remember him.
Jesus promised he'd be with Him in paradise that same day, not promising some untold amount of time being tormented until his sin was all burned away, but a promise from the lips of God incarnate that he'd go to paradise that day.

No sacraments
No works
No mission trips
Now he did spread the gospel, posthumously, because his testimony is recorded in scripture.
But what got him saved, was pretty much a deathbed conversion.
had he somehow NOT been crucified and been released after confessing his sin and asking Jesus to remember him and Jesus gave him that promise... he would have had a changed life. But he didn't have the ability to do all the works and sacraments.
Didn't matter.
Jesus promised him salvation anyway.
If there was anyone who we could say was definitely going to get some sort of post death purgatory in the bible.. it's that guy, he was being executed, and took no sacraments, never attended a church in his life, no works to be spoken of after conversion (outside of posthumous spreading the gospel, unnamed, because his words were recorded).

but Jesus said "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

 

[Guojing]

Jesus only identified Great Tribulation as happening after the midpoint.
anyone spouting "7 year tribulation" doesn't use Jesus teachings to come to that phrase.
they also don't know what tribulation means and think it just means "bad things"
But when Jesus used the word tribulation, it meant religious persecution, and that is how it's used in the old testament as well.
Noah's flood is not referred to as tribulation
neither is the destruction of Sodom.

If you are saying its 3.5 instead of 7, I am fine.

That is not my main point nor is it the main point of the TS's question

 

[wendykvw]

Earthly chastisement. Hebrews 12:5-8. Not "we all go to hell until we're purified by fire after we die"

Why did Christ admonish His followers to prepare for the Kingdom. If it was settled on earth. If it was settled on earth Christ Himself would have no need to warn His servants to prepare.


The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ” (Lk 12:47-48).

17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

Earthly chastisement. Hebrews 12:5-8. Not "we all go to hell until we're purified by fire after we die"

Apparently we do go to the purifying fires of hell if we do not follow the principles of righteousness, according to Jesus.

Matthew chapter 5
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

vs. 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’will be subject to the Sanhedrin.f But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fires of hell.

 

[Jamdoc]

If you are saying its 3.5 instead of 7, I am fine.

That is not my main point nor is it the main point of the TS's question

It's also not my main point..
my main point is largely the misunderstanding of what Jesus meant by great tribulation.
You probably think it involves demon locusts, scorching heat, asteroid impacts, 100 pound hailstones, etc.
but that's not what has ever been described as tribulation in the bible.
But rather religious persecution.
The wrath of God comes after tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 1

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

see? the wrath of God is not the "great tribulation" that Jesus talked about.
Rather the wrath of God is God taking VENGEANCE on those who put His people through tribulation.
It's recompense tribulation, not recompense WITH tribulation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why did Christ admonish His followers to prepare for the Kingdom. If it were settle on earth. If it was settled on earth Christ Himself would have no need to warn His servants, followers to prepare.


The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ” (Lk 12:47-48).

17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


Apparently we do go to the purifying fires of hell if we do not follow the principles of righteousness, according to Jesus.

Matthew chapter 5
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

vs. 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’will be subject to the Sanhedrin.f But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fires of hell.

Hell is not purifying.
I think I'm done with you.
I've seen all that I need to see.
I pray you repent on that.

 

[wendykvw]

.

 

[Guojing]

It's also not my main point..
my main point is largely the misunderstanding of what Jesus meant by great tribulation.
You probably think it involves demon locusts, scorching heat, asteroid impacts, 100 pound hailstones, etc.
but that's not what has ever been described as tribulation in the bible.
But rather religious persecution.
The wrath of God comes after tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 1


see? the wrath of God is not the "great tribulation" that Jesus talked about.
Rather the wrath of God is God taking VENGEANCE on those who put His people through tribulation.
It's recompense tribulation, not recompense WITH tribulation.

The Tribulation is for Israel, its known as Jacob's trouble.

The question is what is Jesus teaching in the sheep and goat judgement in Matthew 25:46.

 

[wendykvw]

Jesus warning again, to those who do not prepare for His Kingdom.

Are these literal virgins? Or another example of sheep and goats and those who are on the left and those on the right?

Matthew 25:7-12
7Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’9‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’10But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.11Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’

 

[Jamdoc]

The Tribulation is for Israel, its known as Jacob's trouble.

The question is what is Jesus teaching in the sheep and goat judgement in Matthew 25:46.

Revelation 6:9-11
Revelation 12:17

but be encouraged, Revelation 12:11

inb4 "tribulation saints" never mentioned in the bible, an invented category of people to explain Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 12:17 in light of a belief in a pre-70th week rapture.
Parable of the 10 virgins. Jesus didn't tell the 5 foolish ones to come back later, or go get martyred for Him and then they can come in.
Jesus said He didn't know them and outright refused them.
There are no special category of people who come to faith after the rapture. Not by what Jesus was teaching.
Rather they were in or they were out.

 

[Hmm]

The question is what is Jesus teaching in the sheep and goat judgement in Matthew 25:46.

The understanding that makes the most sense to me is that of Louis Abbott in his An Analytical Study of Words. I'll simply quote the relevant section:

Matthew 25:31-46 concerns the judgment of NATIONS, not individuals. It is to be distinguished from other judgments mentioned in Scripture, such as the judgment of the saints (2 Cor. 5:10-11); the second resurrection, and the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). The judgment of the nations is based upon their treatment of the Lord's brethren (verse 40). No resurrection of the dead is here, just nations living at the time. To apply verses 41 and 46 to mankind as a whole is an error. Perhaps it should be pointed out at this time that the Fundamentalist Evangelical community at large has made the error of gathering many Scriptures which speak of various judgments which will occur in different ages and assigning them all to "Great White Throne" judgment. This is a serious mistake. Matthew 25:46 speaks nothing of "grace through faith." We will leave it up to the reader to decide who the "Lord's brethren" are, but final judgment based upon the receiving of the Life of Christ is not the subject matter of Matthew 25:46 and should not be interjected here. Even if it were, the penalty is "age-during correction" and not "everlasting punishment."

 

[Eloy Craft]

Well the way Jesus taught it, there wasn't a post death ordeal that believers went through before they could be with Him in paradise.

A man dying next to Jesus, all he said was confessing his sin, knowing he was getting the punishment he deserved, and called Jesus Lord and asked Jesus to remember him.
Jesus promised he'd be with Him in paradise that same day, not promising some untold amount of time being tormented until his sin was all burned away, but a promise from the lips of God incarnate that he'd go to paradise that day.

No sacraments
No works
No mission trips
Now he did spread the gospel, posthumously, because his testimony is recorded in scripture.
But what got him saved, was pretty much a deathbed conversion.
had he somehow NOT been crucified and been released after confessing his sin and asking Jesus to remember him and Jesus gave him that promise... he would have had a changed life. But he didn't have the ability to do all the works and sacraments.
Didn't matter.
Jesus promised him salvation anyway.
If there was anyone who we could say was definitely going to get some sort of post death purgatory in the bible.. it's that guy, he was being executed, and took no sacraments, never attended a church in his life, no works to be spoken of after conversion (outside of posthumous spreading the gospel, unnamed, because his words were recorded).

but Jesus said "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Jesus taught about those on His right and left in His Kingdom.
They drink the cup He is about to drink. Of which Jesus refered to as a Baptism.
Jesus ' followers are prepared by Him to recieve the cup. Not the one's on His right and left.
The two criminals crucified with Him fit His description precisely.
Jesus said He will be with Him in Paradise because He could see that the thief on the left had drank the cup He drank and accepting death on a cross as due him wanted to be with Jesus always. The thief on the right is sitting on His right in Jesus' Kingdom as Jesus described who that is. It follows he passed through the fire that surrounds God after his death and purified.

 

[Guojing]

The understanding that makes the most sense to me is that of Louis Abbott in his An Analytical Study of Words. I'll simply quote the relevant section:

Matthew 25:31-46 concerns the judgment of NATIONS, not individuals. It is to be distinguished from other judgments mentioned in Scripture, such as the judgment of the saints (2 Cor. 5:10-11); the second resurrection, and the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). The judgment of the nations is based upon their treatment of the Lord's brethren (verse 40). No resurrection of the dead is here, just nations living at the time. To apply verses 41 and 46 to mankind as a whole is an error. Perhaps it should be pointed out at this time that the Fundamentalist Evangelical community at large has made the error of gathering many Scriptures which speak of various judgments which will occur in different ages and assigning them all to "Great White Throne" judgment. This is a serious mistake. Matthew 25:46 speaks nothing of "grace through faith." We will leave it up to the reader to decide who the "Lord's brethren" are, but final judgment based upon the receiving of the Life of Christ is not the subject matter of Matthew 25:46 and should not be interjected here. Even if it were, the penalty is "age-during correction" and not "everlasting punishment."

He seems to be saying the same points as me here Matthew 25:46

 

[fhansen]

Well the way Jesus taught it, there wasn't a post death ordeal that believers went through before they could be with Him in paradise.

A man dying next to Jesus, all he said was confessing his sin, knowing he was getting the punishment he deserved, and called Jesus Lord and asked Jesus to remember him.
Jesus promised he'd be with Him in paradise that same day, not promising some untold amount of time being tormented until his sin was all burned away, but a promise from the lips of God incarnate that he'd go to paradise that day.

No sacraments
No works
No mission trips
Now he did spread the gospel, posthumously, because his testimony is recorded in scripture.
But what got him saved, was pretty much a deathbed conversion.
had he somehow NOT been crucified and been released after confessing his sin and asking Jesus to remember him and Jesus gave him that promise... he would have had a changed life. But he didn't have the ability to do all the works and sacraments.
Didn't matter.
Jesus promised him salvation anyway.
If there was anyone who we could say was definitely going to get some sort of post death purgatory in the bible.. it's that guy, he was being executed, and took no sacraments, never attended a church in his life, no works to be spoken of after conversion (outside of posthumous spreading the gospel, unnamed, because his words were recorded).

but Jesus said "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Yes, we don’t know everything going by scripture alone so are pretty much left with our best guesses in many cases. God can override His commands at anytime of course, and we’re only expected to do the best we can with what we have, with more demanded of those given more (Luke 12:48). If the thief had been let down from his cross presumably he’d be baptized and would live out a life quite differently from the few moments he had left on this earth.

Prayers for the dead, a final state of purification for most, baptismal regeneration, the need to live out one’s life in obedience and righteousness are all beliefs and practices of the early church east and west and the ECFs. This is what we know.

The thief was justified in that moment he believed and to this day the church teaches that, at justification, formally at baptism, the “sacrament of faith” as it’s called, in obedience to Christ's command and as a first public profession of faith, there’s no obstacle between that person and heaven if they were to die at that moment, if that faith is sincere. And if you got killed on your way to baptism, you’d still be saved.

 

[Matt5]

Jesus warning again, to those who do not prepare for His Kingdom.

Are these literal virgins? Or another example of sheep and goats and those who are on the left and those on the right?

Matthew 25:7-12
7Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’9‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’10But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.11Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’

The answer shouldn't be much longer than the question. Maybe a sentence or two.

If everybody who refuses the mark of the beast is killed, who is left to greet the real Jesus when he shows up a few years later?

Revelation 13:16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,

The entire parable is about the fake Jesus, the false prophet whose name is Jesus, who shows up and catches the virgins sleeping. He fools many of them who then take the mark. The others who refuse the mark are killed.

Answer: Jesus doesn't know the Christians who took the mark of the beast.

 

[Hmm]

He seems to be saying the same points as me here Matthew 25:46

I'm not so sure. He is definitely not saying that the verse says that it's all about faith and not works. He's saying that it doesn't relate to individual salvation at all but is rather about the judgment of the nations, based on the way they treat people. It reminds me of the saying that a nation can be judged by the way it treats its elderly, which is very true.

 

[Der Alte]

Matthew 25:31-46 concerns the judgment of NATIONS, not individuals.

Highly unlikely, to whom was Jesus speaking in Matt 25:46? Was He talking to national leaders or was he talking to a large crowd of ordinary people?
Since Jesus was speaking to a large crowd of of ordinary people why would He say something that only pertained to national leaders and without identifying it as pertaining only to national leaders.

2 Timothy 3:16
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

This is a serious mistake. Matthew 25:46 speaks nothing of "grace through faith." We will leave it up to the reader to decide who the "Lord's brethren" are, but final judgment based upon the receiving of the Life of Christ is not the subject matter of Matthew 25:46 and should not be interjected here. Even if it were, the penalty is "age-during correction" and not "everlasting punishment.

The usual UR nonsense. The Greek word αἰώνιος/aionios is an adjective. In order to make it say what they want it to UR-ites change one word into two words, "age" a noun and "during" a preposition.
The second word is κόλασις. It does not now or ever meant "correction", "pruning." That is an etymological fallacy.
Here is my scriptural evidence. Which OBTW has not been addressed or refuted.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46 and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction."
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.