Matthew 24:31

[Hismessenger]

Your stuck upon the covenant with Israel and I am looking at the covenant God swore by himself with Abraham as the receiver of that covenant. The Father of the faithful. What is the make up of the church. Ethnicity or Faith. Those of the old testament who operated by faith are members of the church which were unknown to the masses but have been revealed for over two thousands years to those who have eyes to see and ears to here what the spirit has said. What I have related is not human wisdom but by the spirit. You should here what the spirit says before you lodge criticisms of what is being said.

This is the problem with religion today. They can't see in the spirit but rely on carnal knowledge of the scriptures and thus miss what the spirit is saying MY people perish for lack of knowledge. In all thy getting get understanding. There is more to what you read than what is on the surface.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Simple question. If the church was still in the future, how is it that Israel is transformed into the church. The church is not transformed into Israel. The true Israel has always been those of Faith. Paul made this plain when he said that all Israel is not Israel but too many can't hear what the spirit is saying for looking at only the words on the page. Read them and then ask the spirit what he is truly saying. Why do you think Christ taught in parables?

hismessenger

 

[Biblewriter]

Your stuck upon the covenant with Israel and I am looking at the covenant God swore by himself with Abraham as the receiver of that covenant. The Father of the faithful. What is the make up of the church. Ethnicity or Faith. Those of the old testament who operated by faith are members of the church which were unknown to the masses but have been revealed for over two thousands years to those who have eyes to see and ears to here what the spirit has said. What I have related is not human wisdom but by the spirit. You should here what the spirit says before you lodge criticisms of what is being said.

This is the problem with religion today. They can't see in the spirit but rely on carnal knowledge of the scriptures and thus miss what the spirit is saying MY people perish for lack of knowledge. In all thy getting get understanding. There is more to what you read than what is on the surface.

hismessenger

This is a beautiful concept. Try demonstrating it from scripture. (Hint: you can't, because scripture says no such thing.)

 

[Biblewriter]

Simple question. If the church was still in the future, how is it that Israel is transformed into the church. The church is not transformed into Israel. The true Israel has always been those of Faith. Paul made this plain when he said that all Israel is not Israel but too many can't hear what the spirit is saying for looking at only the words on the page. Read them and then ask the spirit what he is truly saying. Why do you think Christ taught in parables?

hismessenger

Simple answer:

The fact that Jesus very clearly referred to the church as future is proof that Israel was not transformed into the church. There is not even one scripture anywhere that says that Israel was transformed into the church.

 

[Hismessenger]

The fact that Jesus very clearly referred to the church as future is proof that Israel was not transformed into the church. There is not even one scripture anywhere that says that Israel was transformed into the church.

Show me one scripture where Christ said the church was future. Paul knew that the church existed in the old testament because he made this statement in Rom:16:26

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

.
Note he was preaching about the church which had been known of by the scripture and the prophets. How is this when there was no new testament and Paul was very studied in the old. The spirit had given him insight and take note of the last part of the verse. It is the basis of the gospel and the church. Obedience of and by Faith.

I never said Israel was transformed into the church but that they became a part of the church which even though it was not Manifested to the world, never the less, It still existed before Israel. The scriptures plainly allude to it in the old testament if you will put away what you think and trust the word by faith. The spirit will show you the truth.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

(Hint: you can't, because scripture says no such thing.)

You need to read Hebrews if you believe what you have said. Scripture screams of the obedience of faith. This the foundation of the church.

hismessenger

 

[Biblewriter]

Show me one scripture where Christ said the church was future.

"on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)

Paul knew that the church existed in the old testament because he made this statement in Rom:16:26

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:10-11)

"having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone," (Ephesians 2:20)

Note he was preaching about the church which had been known of by the scripture and the prophets. How is this when there was no new testament and Paul was very studied in the old. The spirit had given him insight and take note of the last part of the verse. It is the basis of the gospel and the church. Obedience of and by Faith.

I never said Israel was transformed into the church but that they became a part of the church which even though it was not Manifested to the world, never the less, It still existed before Israel. The scriptures plainly allude to it in the old testament if you will put away what you think and trust the word by faith. The spirit will show you the truth.

hismessenger

No scripture even hints at the idea that the church existed before Jesus came to lay the foundation.

 

[Hismessenger]

Evidently you didn't read Hebrews. Paul lays out all those of the old testament who belonged to the church without their knowing and this is supported by Exd 6:3,

Exo 6:3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD [fn] I was not known to them.

They were a part of the foundation of the church but they never knew until they were resurrected. As I said the foundation of the church is based on faith. Are you going to tell me they had no faith. There were no laws so what's up?

hismessenger

 

[Biblewriter]

Evidently you didn't read Hebrews. Paul lays out all those of the old testament who belonged to the church without their knowing and this is supported by Exd 6:3,

Exo 6:3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD [fn] I was not known to them.

They were a part of the foundation of the church but they never knew until they were resurrected. As I said the foundation of the church is based on faith. Are you going to tell me they had no faith. There were no laws so what's up?

hismessenger

This scripture never even hints at the idea that these people were part of"the church." You are simply assuming, without an atom of scriptural evidence, that anyone who was ever a true servant of God was a member of the church.

 

[Hismessenger]

The scripture isn't given to everyone to understand so says the word and maybe this is why you can't recognize those of faith in the old testament. The church is based on trust and faith in the lord. What other criteria do you know of that describes the church.
If there is another please tell us and then tell us why those of the faith in the old testament aren't members of the church. Who do you think the elders are mentioned in Revelations'?

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

]Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

What makes Abraham special, The fact that he was a gentile saved by grace through faith. IT has all the trappings of the church even if you can't take a hint.

hismessenger

 

[Biblewriter]

The scripture isn't given to everyone to understand so says the word and maybe this is why you can't recognize those of faith in the old testament. The church is based on trust and faith in the lord. What other criteria do you know of that describes the church.
If there is another please tell us and then tell us why those of the faith in the old testament aren't members of the church. Who do you think the elders are mentioned in Revelations'?

hismessenger

This is beautiful supposition. But that is all it is. Supposition. No scripture anywhere even hints at the idea that the church existed before Jesus died. But numerous ones indicate it began at that time.

 

[Hismessenger]

Christ laid the foundation of the church in the Old testament. This is what Paul was teaching about. But many religious readers can't see this, even when it is in black and white.

Zec 8:9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:

‘Let your hands be strong,
You who have been hearing in these days
These words by the mouth of the prophets,
Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
For the house of the LORD of hosts,
That the temple might be built.

Who laid that foundation and why? Answer that for yourself and then you will be on the right track. What makes us a part of the true church, Faith. It is the gospel of Faith which Christ and the disciples taught. Not obedience to the law but rather obedience to the faith. If you cannot accept the fact that the church was and is based on faith then I have nothing more to say to you. I wipe the dust off my shoes and continue on to fertile soil.

be blessed in Christ

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

The foundation of the church was laid in the old testament by the calling of a select few men who were faithful to the calling of God. He then tried to call a people, Israel to be his special people but they could never grasp the operation of true faith and were thus put aside for a time. Christ was the one who laid the foundation and he tells us this in Exd.6:3;

Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

He goes on to say;

Exo 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:

He accomplished this at his resurrection. This is looking in the spirit at things written and not made clear to all the masses. But only to those who submit to God by faith. What Paul taught about the church came from the scriptures and the prophets of the Old testament. This is confirmed by the fact that the new testament had yet to be written.

Isaiah chapter 9 tells of the coming messiah and his people, the church in verse 2 and if you have eyes to see and ears to hear he speaks of the tribulation the church will suffer at the hands of the world.

The Old Testament is the foundation laid to bring us to faith. Those who deny need to ask God to show them his truth for if you diligently seek him, he will be found.

hismessenger

 

[Biblewriter]

Christ laid the foundation of the church in the Old testament. This is what Paul was teaching about. But many religious readers can't see this, even when it is in black and white.

Who laid that foundation and why? Answer that for yourself and then you will be on the right track. What makes us a part of the true church, Faith. It is the gospel of Faith which Christ and the disciples taught. Not obedience to the law but rather obedience to the faith. If you cannot accept the fact that the church was and is based on faith then I have nothing more to say to you. I wipe the dust off my shoes and continue on to fertile soil.

be blessed in Christ

hismessenger

You are quoting a scripture about rebuilding a physical temple long before the time of Christ, and attempting to apply it to a spiritual temple that came only after his death.

 

[Biblewriter]

The foundation of the church was laid in the old testament by the calling of a select few men who were faithful to the calling of God. He then tried to call a people, Israel to be his special people but they could never grasp the operation of true faith and were thus put aside for a time. Christ was the one who laid the foundation and he tells us this in Exd.6:3;

He goes on to say;

He accomplished this at his resurrection. This is looking in the spirit at things written and not made clear to all the masses. But only to those who submit to God by faith. What Paul taught about the church came from the scriptures and the prophets of the Old testament. This is confirmed by the fact that the new testament had yet to be written.

Isaiah chapter 9 tells of the coming messiah and his people, the church in verse 2 and if you have eyes to see and ears to hear he speaks of the tribulation the church will suffer at the hands of the world.

The Old Testament is the foundation laid to bring us to faith. Those who deny need to ask God to show them his truth for if you diligently seek him, he will be found.

hismessenger

Skip the beautiful theories, and notice the scriptures I quoted, the ones that clearly state that the church did not exist before Jesus died.

 

[Hismessenger]

You say that you have qouted scripture that say the church didn't exist in the old testament but all I have heard or seen is what you believe. You have yet to show me one scripture that says the church didn't exist in the old testament. The only scripture you can show me is the the church was not known of in the old testament. That doesn't mean it didn't exist. But there was those like Isaiah who wrote of the manifestation of what was already there. You just don't want to see the truth for it is there for you to receive .

hismessenger

 

[Biblewriter]

You say that you have qouted scripture that say the church didn't exist in the old testament but all I have heard or seen is what you believe. You have yet to show me one scripture that says the church didn't exist in the old testament. The only scripture you can show me is the the church was not known of in the old testament. That doesn't mean it didn't exist. But there was those like Isaiah who wrote of the manifestation of what was already there. You just don't want to see the truth for it is there for you to receive .

hismessenger

The church was plainly future when Jesus said, "on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) He did not say, I am building my church, He said I will build my church. That is plainly the future tense.

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:10-11)

You cannot build anything before its foundation is laid. That is where it all starts. And Paul said He had laid the foundation, and the chief cornerstone was Jesus Christ.

"having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone," (Ephesians 2:20)

The foundation was the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

"The apostles and prophets" was an expression for the writers of the New Testament. It was not a reference to the Old Testament prophets.

Again, we find the express statement that the church was something new in Ephesians 2:14-15, where we read:

"For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

This scripture expressly says that of the Jews and the gentiles, God made something new. That is, something that did not exist before.

 

[Hismessenger]

Here is one scripture verse which proves all that I have told you by the spirit so now you decide who you will serve this day.

Act 7:38 This is he,that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

hismessenger
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[Biblewriter]

Here is one scripture verse which proves all that I have told you by the spirit so now you decide who you will serve this day.

hismessenger
​

The KJV is not perfect. The Greek word there is simply the "out-called," properly rendered congregation, gathering, or assembly, as found in:

38 This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,
Acts 7:38 NKJV

38 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.
Acts 7:38 ESV

38 "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
Acts 7:38 NASB

38 He is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living oracles to give to us.
Acts 7:38 NRSV

38 'This is he who was among the Congregation in the Desert, together with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers, who received ever-living utterances to hand on to us.
Acts 7:38

38 This is the Moses who was with the gathering of the Israelites in the desert. He was with the angel that spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and he was with our ancestors. He received commands from God that give life, and he gave those commands to us.
Acts 7:38 NCV

38 This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers; who received living oracles to give to us;
Acts 7:38 DNT

38 `This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the messenger who is speaking to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who did receive the living oracles to give to us;
Acts 7:38 YLT

38 This is the Moses who was in the assembly in the desert. Our ancestors and the messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai were there with him. Moses received life-giving messages to give to us,
Acts 7:38 GWTN