Matthew 24:31

[MWood]

However, the church will be in heaven as Jesus bride and will come back with Him after the 7 year tribulation period, to rule and reign with Him for the 1000 years on earth .

Speaking of The Bride, there is no Scripture in the Bible that supports the idea of the Church the Body of Christ being the Bride of Christ. But there is Scripture that tells you exactly who the bride is.

Rev 21:9-10 KJV

9. And there came unto me one of the seven angles which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the Bride, the Lamb's wife.

10.And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This is the bride, the Lamb's wife. Now you know and you can tell everyone and show them.

 

[bibletruth469]

There are many verses that prove that the church is the bride of Christ . Rev 19 : 7-9, Eph 5:25-27, rev 21:2, john 3 :29, 2 cor 11:2 for example.

 

[bibletruth469]

Actually there two churches talked about in the New Testament. If you search the scriptures with an open mind, you will see the church that Christ started, and the one that was revealed to Paul when Jesus revealed the mystery of the Gospel of Grace to him at about and after chapter 9 in the book of Acts. In Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14, and in Mark 1:14-15 we find that Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, thus the beginning of the Kingdom Church. In Acts 2-41 we see..."and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." These twelve Apostles knew no other Gospel than the Gospel of the Kingdom. So they were added to the Kingdom Church. These twelve Apostles continued preaching this same Gospel of the Kingdom through out the rest of their lives. They were commissioned by Jesus to preach this Gospel and no other, and they did. The Church the Body of Christ was a mystery hid in the mind if God from the beginning of time. It was not revealed to anyone, anywhere, at anytime until it was revealed to Saul of Tarsas by Jesus in or after chapter 9 of the book of Acts. So the three thousand that were added in Acts 2:41 were not added to the Church the Body of Christ. They were added to the Kingdom Church. The Apostle Paul was the first in the Church the Body of Christ. Go back and diligently study with an open mind the four Gospels, Acts, and all the epistles of Paul. The truth of what I am saying is in them. Set aside all that you have heard and all that you know, start fresh with a fresh out look, you will learn a lot more if you do.

You could be right. The traditional church that I am talking about is the current church age that we are in now . This is the one that began at Pentecost and remains today . The church age that Christians are part of now will end on earth at the rapture , however will forever be with Christ . We are His and belong to Him.

 

[MWood]

There are many verses that prove that the church is the bride of Christ . Rev 19 : 7-9, Eph 5:25-27, rev 21:2, john 3 :29, 2 cor 11:2 for example.

I read the verses that you wrote here and only one Rev 21:2 speaks of the bride of Christ. If you will continue reading that chapter you will find that verse 2 is a part of the content of verses 9 and 10 and shows that the Bride of Christ is new Jerusalem and not the Church which is His body.

The other verses is not speaking of the bride of Christ. And does not show that the Church the Body of Christ is also His Bride.

 

[MWood]

You could be right. The traditional church that I am talking about is the current church age that we are in now . This is the one that began at Pentecost and remains today . The church age that Christians are part of now will end on earth at the rapture , however will forever be with Christ . We are His and belong to Him.

The current church age that we are in now is the Church the Body of Christ, which was not started on the day of Pentecost. The Church the Body of Christ was a part of the mystery that was revealed to the Apostle Paul a year or so after the day of Pentecost. There was no church started on the day of Pentecost. All the souls that were added to them on the day of Pentecost were added to the Kingdom Church that was started by Jesus during His ministry. Do you remember the 120 that were in the upper room praying when the Holy Spirit fell upon them? This 120 are the ones that the 3000 were added to. This 120 knew no other Gospel than the Gospel of the Kingdom, so these 3000 were added to the Kingdom Church, which is not the current church of today. I hope this opens up another view for you and you study to show that these things are true.

 

[bibletruth469]

Wow, that's interesting and it does make sense. So, the current church that we are living in now , has the full mystery of the gospel . In your opinion, did that start with Paul on the road to Damascus or with Peter ( on this rock, I will build my church) I'll wait for your reply . Thanks

 

[Hismessenger]

A simple question that when you really look at it you will see the error of this rapture doctrine to come back with Christ,

The question is, HOW MANY SAINTS ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN FROM THE TIME CHRIST ROSE UNTIL NOW. How do you simply disregard them to say that you will be raptured to come back with Christ when they already have their white robes and don't need to be raptured to come back with Christ. Christ is not partial and the scripture says that the dead in Christ will rise first. A simple truth that you either accept or deny.

hismessenger

 

[MWood]

Wow, that's interesting and it does make sense. So, the current church that we are living in now , has the full mystery of the gospel . In your opinion, did that start with Paul on the road to Damascus or with Peter ( on this rock, I will build my church) I'll wait for your reply . Thanks

The Church the Body of Christ was a part of the mystery that was revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus, so yes it was started with the Apostle Paul. On this rock, I will build my church, is not referring to Peter being the rock, but instead to the answer that Peter gave to the question Jesus asked. Peters answer was that Jesus is the Son of God. And upon this rock Jesus will build His church. The Kingdom Church was built on Jesus being the Son of God. The Church the Body of Christ is being built on Jesus being the Son of God. I pray this helps and is cause for further study.

 

[MWood]

A simple question that when you really look at it you will see the error of this rapture doctrine to come back with Christ,

The question is, HOW MANY SAINTS ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN FROM THE TIME CHRIST ROSE UNTIL NOW. How do you simply disregard them to say that you will be raptured to come back with Christ when they already have their white robes and don't need to be raptured to come back with Christ. Christ is not partial and the scripture says that the dead in Christ will rise first. A simple truth that you either accept or deny.

hismessenger

Untold billions I'm sure!

When talking about the rapture, we are talking about the graves opening up and the glorified bodies of all the saints being caught up in the air to be united with Jesus for ever. The Saints that you are talking about are the Spirits waiting to be joined again with their resurrected bodies.

 

[Hismessenger]

When talking about the rapture, we are talking about the graves opening up and the glorified bodies of all the saints being caught up in the air to be united with Jesus for ever.

If only what you have said was true of rapture, for most don't understand even what you have said. And what you have said is true because the dead in Christ rise first. But most when they speak of a rapture are talking about being taken out while they are still alive before those who have gone on before them. The saints I am talking about are already in heaven under the altar. They are the one seen coming with Christ at his second and final advent. which is where those who remain alive will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye into the body of Christ. The new Jerusalem.

hismessenger

 

[bibletruth469]

Untold billions I'm sure! When talking about the rapture, we are talking about the graves opening up and the glorified bodies of all the saints being caught up in the air to be united with Jesus for ever. The Saints that you are talking about are the Spirits waiting to be joined again with their resurrected bodies.

This is truth and it is described very clearly in scripture . 1 thes 4:16-18 , 1 cor 15:51-52

 

[bibletruth469]

A simple question that when you really look at it you will see the error of this rapture doctrine to come back with Christ, The question is, HOW MANY SAINTS ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN FROM THE TIME CHRIST ROSE UNTIL NOW. How do you simply disregard them to say that you will be raptured to come back with Christ when they already have their white robes and don't need to be raptured to come back with Christ. Christ is not partial and the scripture says that the dead in Christ will rise first. A simple truth that you either accept or deny. hismessenger

The ones in the white robes that you are referring to are the believers that have come out of the great tribulation Rev7: 9. These are not the raptured church . The rapture will happen 1 st before the seven year tribulation.

Yes, the dead in Christ will rise first before the alive. 1 thes4:16, 1 cor 15:51-52. They will at that time receive glorified bodies fit for the kingdom.

 

[Hismessenger]

[QUOTEThe ones in the white robes that you are referring to are the believers that have come out of the great tribulation Rev7: 9. These are not the raptured church . The rapture will happen 1 st before the seven year tribulation.
][/QUOTE]

Not so.

Rev 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

it doesn't say they were killed in the tribulation but they were killed for their witness for Christ after his resurrection and some even before.

hismessenger

 

[bibletruth469]

[QUOTEThe ones in the white robes that you are referring to are the believers that have come out of the great tribulation Rev7: 9. These are not the raptured church . The rapture will happen 1 st before the seven year tribulation. ]

Not so. it doesn't say they were killed in the tribulation but they were killed for their witness for Christ after his resurrection and some even before. hismessenger[/QUOTE]

It specifically says' the ones who have come out of the great tribulation ' . This tribulation spoken about in revelation is the seven year period after the church is raptured. The church will not go through the tribulation IMO .

 

[bibletruth469]

One can study the time frame of the tribulation period by looking at the 70 weeks of Daniel. This period of time is a separate dispensation from any time in history. It is period that brings the remnant of Israel back to God. It is a amazing study in the word of God.

 

[Hismessenger]

Think about what you are saying against what the bible truly says about these events. There are no seven years after the church is taken because it will be the judgement with Christ at the head.

The ones who come out of the tribulation have died for their witness for Christ and are given the honor of reigning with Christ in heaven for the thousand years.

Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

.

These passages show two pertinent things. On is that the church is here during the tribulation and refuse to worship the beast. They die for their witness for Christ and are given the right to reign with him for the thousand years

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand s years are complete. They also negate the rapture of the church because the word says that the dead in Christ rise first and then those who are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. THis is what many mistakenly call a rapture before the tribulation. There is only on gathering of those who are alive and that is at the final judgement at the end of the thousand years when Christ puts an end to Satan and brings the wrath of God on fallen mankind who will be left when the church is gone.

It is the wrath of Satan in the tribulation and this is confirmed by Rev20:5
when it says

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

How can you deny this truth of God for the fables of men. The rest of the dead are not resurrected until the thousand years are complete. No where in the bible doe it show the church being removed before the judgement of Christ on the world. Thess. 4 is taken out of its time frame for Paul is talking about the second coming of Christ. Not the church being removed from the wrath of Satan but from the final wrath of God on the wicked and the dead.

hismessenger

 

[Biblewriter]

All to many don't understand that the church did not begin in the new testament. Thus we have these statements about something which is not true.
The church began with prophets like Enoch and Elijah, Moses and Noah. How is it that this is so you ask. Ask yourself what constitutes the church. The church is founded on faith which is the gospel message. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Too many fail to realize that those who come with Christ were already dead as attested to those who reign with Him for the thousand years who come out of the tribulation and did not bow to Satan, thus they are killed for Gods sake. Stop trying to add things to the scripture like those who come with Him were Raptured. Not so. If you don't believe what I have said go look at the book of Revelation chapter 6 verses 9 through 11. There are already saints in heaven even as I write this so why believe this false teaching. It is one of the reasons there will come a falling away when it doesn't happen as so many believe. The elect are the church through all ages because God has chosen them from the foundation of the world just as he did Christ according to their faith.

One last note to put the nail in the coffin is this verse from Matt:

The elect is still here in the tribulation whether you believe it or not. It is in the word spoken by Christ himself.

hismessenger

You are wholly neglecting two facts. First, the church was still in the future when Jesus said "on this rock I will build My church."
Matthew 16:18

And Israel, not the church, is clearly called God's "elect" in several scriptures.

4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.
Isaiah 45:4


8 Thus says the LORD: "As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, 'Do not destroy it, For a blessing is in it,' So will I do for My servants' sake, That I may not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.
10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down, For My people who have sought Me.
11 "But you are those who forsake the LORD, Who forget My holy mountain, Who prepare a table for Gad, And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.
12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."
13 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed;
14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit.
15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord GOD will slay you, And call His servants by another name;
16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth Shall bless himself in the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Shall swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My eyes.
17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isaiah 65:8-22

 

[Biblewriter]

The church began in the Old testament but was hidden from the masses until the advent of Christ. This is confirmed in these two verses from Exodus;







Not only does he confirm that the church was hidden from them but that he also confirmed the covenant calling of the church to them. Then look at the calling of Israel and the church;



This was the calling of Israel.

Here is the calling of the church;



The church may have been a mystery in the past but is now made known to his people who should be able to recognize it's origins from and in the Old testament. There are saints, church members already in heaven even if you only look at it from the beginning of the church to now. So why would God need to rapture more to come back with him.
The logistics and logic of that thinking is skewed. Stop listening to these pipe dreams and hear what the spirit has said.

hismessenger

Again, you are neglecting clearly stated scripture:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:7-13

 

[Biblewriter]

A simple question that when you really look at it you will see the error of this rapture doctrine to come back with Christ,

The question is, HOW MANY SAINTS ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN FROM THE TIME CHRIST ROSE UNTIL NOW. How do you simply disregard them to say that you will be raptured to come back with Christ when they already have their white robes and don't need to be raptured to come back with Christ. Christ is not partial and the scripture says that the dead in Christ will rise first. A simple truth that you either accept or deny.

hismessenger

You are just quoting a part of a verse. What it actually says is:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

[Biblewriter]

If only what you have said was true of rapture, for most don't understand even what you have said. And what you have said is true because the dead in Christ rise first. But most when they speak of a rapture are talking about being taken out while they are still alive before those who have gone on before them. The saints I am talking about are already in heaven under the altar. They are the one seen coming with Christ at his second and final advent. which is where those who remain alive will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye into the body of Christ. The new Jerusalem.

hismessenger

Here, you do not even begin to understand the doctrine you are attacking. I have been knocking around pre-tribbers for well over sixty years, and I have never, even once, heard even one of them suggest that the living will be raised before thise that have gone on before them.

We actually read our Bibles. I suggest you do the same.