Matthew 23:9 is it a Blow / Bashing Against Catholics...?

AvaLynn

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It's talking about spiritual figures. Also, "Honour your father and mother" is the fifth commandment, not the fourth. The fourth is actually, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God." Which Catholics also don't follow.
 
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kepha31

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You're willfully ignoring the fact that the passage you cited specifies God as our SPIRITUAL FATHER.
It certainly doesn't mean biological father, does it? So why the big fuss when we call our priests a spiritual "father" according to Scripture??? Is "reverend" supposed to be more biblical???
 
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Phil 1:21

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It's talking about spiritual figures. Also, "Honour your father and mother" is the fifth commandment, not the fourth. The fourth is actually, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God." Which Catholics also don't follow.

Some denominations consider it the fourth because they conveniently remove the second (the one about bowing down to graven images), slide 3-9 up a slot, add split the tenth into two parts.

decalogue-55Cath.jpg
theCatholicTenCommandments.jpg
 
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Hidden In Him

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WRONG. Jesus was telling them not to elevate rabbis and teachers to the level of the heavenly Father. Your eisegesis is glaring.

No, He wasn't. The Rabbis were not insisting that they be elevated to the level of the Heavenly Father Himself! They would have readily recognized this to blasphemy. Jesus was merely telling the disciples not to elevate themselves above other men because they have One Father in Heaven, and because He found the fact that the Pharisees loved to be greeting with titles of respect by other men to be very displeasing to Him.

What bearing in your opinion do verses 1-7 have on verses 8-10, and what is the point of verse 11?

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
Your Bible twisting is offensive... In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites.

No. The passage says Jesus told them, “But YOU are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are YOU to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah."
Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

The word καθηγητὴς in verse 10 is used as title, just as are the words "Rabbi" and "father" in the previous verses. And yes, your point is valid here. According to the passage, neither protestants nor Catholics should elevate leaders through the use of titles, nor elevate themselves in comparison with one another. This is what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 3:5-7 and 1 Corinthians 3:21-23.
Judges 17:10; 18:19 – priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means “communicating one’s nature,” and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Yes, here is an example of using the terms "father" and "son" in a spiritual sense. But the text does not say, "Come dwell with me, and I will address you with the title 'father'." He simply asked him to be as a spiritual father to him. Different thing.
Eph. 3:14-15 – every family in heaven and on earth is named from the “Father.” We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 – elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, “Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?”

1 Cor. 4:15 – Paul writes, “I became your father in Christ Jesus.”

1 Cor. 4:17 – Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful “child” in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 – Paul describes his role as parent over his “children” the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 – Paul calls Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a “father.”

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders’ ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 – Paul calls Timothy his true “child” in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 – Paul calls Titus his true “child” in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 – Paul says he has become the “father” of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 – emphasizes our earthly “fathers.” But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 – Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his “son.”

1 John 2:1,13,14 – John calls the elders of the Church “fathers.”

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 – John calls members of the Church “children.”

We call our priests "Father" because it's biblical and have been doing it since the time of Paul.

Most of your passages above either use the word "father" as an analogy or in the sense of "ancestor." This is not the same thing as referring to people by titles to give them greater honor in the sight of men than others, which is Christ's whole focus of the teaching.
 
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concretecamper

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Jerome has a great explanation

"It is a difficulty that the Apostle against this command calls himself the teacher of the Gentiles; and that in monasteries in their common conversation, they call one another, Father. It is to be cleared thus. It is one thing to be father or master by nature, another by sufferance. Thus when we call any man our father, we do it to shew respect to his age, not as regarding him as the author of our being. We also call men `Master,’ from resemblance to a real master; and, not to use tedious repetition, as the One God and One Son, who are by nature, do not preclude us from calling others gods and sons by adoption, so the One Father and One Master, do not preclude us from speaking of other fathers and masters by an abuse of the terms."
 
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Hidden In Him

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Thus when we call any man our father, we do it to shew respect to his age, not as regarding him as the author of our being.

This is @kepha31's argument. But again, it doesn't fit well with the context of Matthew 23:1-12. The sin of regarding a Rabbi or teacher as "the very Author of our being" is never discussed in the passage. To say it's being discussed here insinuates that this must be what the Pharisees were doing, and for a Pharisee to be equating himself with the Heavenly Father would have been a death sentence.
 
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rockytopva

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I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I believe the Catholic church is the fourth Christian church and she has her issues just like the rest of us. My main concern is the spirit of Jezebel, which is to control and to dominate. If we give one group superiority the controlling and dominating spirit will follow. Thankfully this spirit these days is in Islam.

I consider myself Wesleyan, yet if you read the prophecy...

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. - Revelation 3:12

No more go out.... This is the fault of the Wesleyan/Pentecostal congregation... We could not keep the revival going! We were in and out, and sometimes, once we went out, the revival dissipated all together.

There are a lot of things different about the church congregations, in which, many of the Catholic beliefs, such as purgatory, worship to the saints, of Mary, etc... Are something my congregation does not teach. And things I am not interesting in learning. If I got direct access to the Father in the name of Jesus, why would I need any additional help?

Again, is it Blow against Catholic or does it just show that the many Protestants do not understand the true meaning behind Matthew 23:9?

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. - Matthew 23:9

As far as the Matthew 23:9 scripture... No, we don't call out ministers Father!

I believe that the Catholic church is a Christian congregation just like all the rest of us. And I do not elevate or put them down in comparing them to the other congregations. But there are a lot of doctrines that are unique to the Catholic church. And the Catholic church more favors Orthodoxy, which is another Christian congregation, more than she does we Pentecostals. Which is all OK with me. I am glad we live in a time where we can choose our congregation.
 
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concretecamper

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I would like to think that Catholicism has a good defense for what they are doing because I genuinely want to think the best of all Christians, and usually Catholics have fairly good reasons for what they do.

I think kepha31 and Jerome did an awesome job:oldthumbsup:
 
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celestialpearl

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A verse I often need to return to...

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Romans 14:13
 
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Marvin Knox

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Matthew 23:9 is it a Blow / Bashing Against Catholics or does it just show that many Protestants do not understand Matthew 23:9?

Matthew 23:9And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.

For the many Protestants who bash the Catholics for calling a Priest Father or their own Father Father, MUST not Obey the 4th Commandment of “Honor thy father and mother".

It is sad for one to Obey the 4th Commandment,“Honor thy father and mother", and then Bash Catholics for Calling a Priest Father or their own Father, Father???


Honor thy Father and Mother: This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.

Again, is it Blow against Catholic or does it just show that the many Protestants do not understand the true meaning behind Matthew 23:9?

To you who uses Matthew 23:9 to bash Catholics, do you "Honor your Father and Mother"??? If, you say you Do "honor your Father and Mother", then please do not use Matthew 23:9 against Catholics, because you will contradicting yourself. Amen
The sad thing to me is that you actually think this silly post is some kind of thoughtful and profound argument against Protestants who speak against the unscriptural priesthood propagated by the so called Roman Catholic church.

As I see it - it is actually a rather shallow and contrived argument.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I think kepha31 and Jerome did an awesome job:oldthumbsup:

Yes, I was aware of that, LoL.

Since both kepha31 and Jerome take the some position on the issue, how about if you answer my question for me. Kepha stated the following:
Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.

And then you added that Jerome's response was similar:
Jerome has a great explanation: "when we call any man our father, we do it to shew respect to his age, not as regarding him as the author of our being.

My reply was as follows:
The Rabbis were not insisting that they be elevated to the level of the Heavenly Father Himself. They would have readily recognized this to be blasphemy. Jesus was merely telling the disciples not to elevate themselves above other men because they have One Father in Heaven, and because He found the fact that the Pharisees loved to be greeting with titles by other men to be very displeasing to Him.

What bearing in your opinion do verses 1-7 have on verses 8-10, and what is the point of verse 11?

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

That reply was to Kepha, but I also asked you directly:
The sin of regarding a Rabbi or teacher as "the very Author of our being" is never discussed in the passage. To say it's being discussed here insinuates that this must be what the Pharisees were doing, and for a Pharisee to be equating himself with the Heavenly Father would have been a death sentence.

So I'm still wanting to know what the Catholic reply is to this point.
 
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dqhall

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"How do you refer to your mother's husband? What do you call him?" If a Catholic is wrong in calling his priest "father," then everyone who refers to his own natural father as "father" is also in the wrong. Both usages would be prohibited by a literal interpretation of Jesus' words.

I called him "dad." Since he was a military officer, he told me "Do not call me dad, call me sir." I recognized my parents cared for me before I could say the word, "father." Their giving is remembered. Since I left my parents, sometimes it seemed there was no one who cared except God, thus God is my father, even if I am not worthy to be called God's son. I do not have to call a preacher father. If I think the preacher is a gifted speaker I might stay to listen, if not I might go.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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Matthew 23:9 is it a Blow / Bashing Against Catholics or does it just show that many Protestants do not understand Matthew 23:9?

Matthew 23:9And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.

For the many Protestants who bash the Catholics for calling a Priest Father or their own Father Father, MUST not Obey the 4th Commandment of “Honor thy father and mother".

It is sad for one to Obey the 4th Commandment,“Honor thy father and mother", and then Bash Catholics for Calling a Priest Father or their own Father, Father???


Honor thy Father and Mother: This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.

Again, is it Blow against Catholic or does it just show that the many Protestants do not understand the true meaning behind Matthew 23:9?

To you who uses Matthew 23:9 to bash Catholics, do you "Honor your Father and Mother"??? If, you say you Do "honor your Father and Mother", then please do not use Matthew 23:9 against Catholics, because you will contradicting yourself. Amen
You miss the context of Matthew 23 for it addresses the issue of coveting rank and glory: the root of which is pride. Additionally Jesus also made it clear that no one can truly be called a teacher if they have something to learn; nor, can one be called a true father if he himself has been fathered: these titles soley belong to God.

As for the popes themselves: their fruits are evident as to what type of father they are referring themselves to be. Unless you have selective hearing or sight: it is well established that all popes declare themselves as God. Let's not forget the history of the Catholic church adopting pagan customs and idols and changing the names to those of supposed holy days of God and His apostles.

As Niccolo Machiavelli rightly stated:

"It is not titles that honor men but, men that honor titles."
 
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Philip_B

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It often amused me that there were a number of non-conformist chaplains in the services who would happily decry anyone calling someone Father, yet regularly responded to the term Padre, and indeed even had it on the doors and stationary.

It is not about Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodoxy and others being unscriptural, that is simply a cheap jibe and a failure to deal with the text. I suspect that the OP was ill considered. In the context of the worshipping Christian community the term indicates leadership and authority within the context of the family of faith. It makes a statement about leadership and relationship. I suspect that the OP gained what was to be expected, as it seems like an invitation to assault the the traditions which embrace the position.

On balance I prefer it as it does carry with it the context of family - and I now know a number of female clergy who respond to the term Mother, in a similar context. In the end it is a red herring, and basically a matter of tradition and of little consequence in the grand scheme of things.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Matthew 23:9 is it a Blow / Bashing Against Catholics or does it just show that many Protestants do not understand Matthew 23:9?

Matthew 23:9And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.

For the many Protestants who bash the Catholics for calling a Priest Father or their own Father Father, MUST not Obey the 4th Commandment of “Honor thy father and mother".

It is sad for one to Obey the 4th Commandment,“Honor thy father and mother", and then Bash Catholics for Calling a Priest Father or their own Father, Father???


Honor thy Father and Mother: This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.

Again, is it Blow against Catholic or does it just show that the many Protestants do not understand the true meaning behind Matthew 23:9?

To you who uses Matthew 23:9 to bash Catholics, do you "Honor your Father and Mother"??? If, you say you Do "honor your Father and Mother", then please do not use Matthew 23:9 against Catholics, because you will contradicting yourself. Amen

The command to call no one on earth "father" comes directly from Our Lord and hence we must treat it with great respect. Now in some cultures it is a custom to call any older man "father" out of respect . . . and any older woman "mother" out of respect. Such a usage seems innocent to this pilgrim. Clearly, the words coming from Our Lord in a context involving words such as "Rabbi" and "Teacher", it would seem the place to find their meaning would be within the church.

To listen to some, we might as well throw these words away as if they had never been uttered, because we are urged to freely confer a title "father" on church leaders that we withhold from church laymen, and surely, it is urged, our traditions and respect towards leaders make this to be an ok thing to do. But this argument ignores the fact we have a perfectly respectful alternate word to use among ourselves, and that would be "brother". Or perhaps "sister". And so I take it that my earthly physical father can be called "father" and my church pastor and teacher can be called "brother" and in this way I am obeying my Lord. And I carry this usage over when dealing with officials of other denominations.
 
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Philip_B

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1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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you do not have many fathers.
Yes, thank you : "just one". not many. Like one earthly/biological father.
But his students/ disciples/ converts did not call the Apostle Paul , nor any of the Apostles, "father Paul", no. As others pointed out, different meaning, different context.
 
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Norbert L

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Matthew 23:9 is it a Blow / Bashing Against Catholics or does it just show that many Protestants do not understand Matthew 23:9?

Matthew 23:9And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.

For the many Protestants who bash the Catholics for calling a Priest Father or their own Father Father, MUST not Obey the 4th Commandment of “Honor thy father and mother".

It is sad for one to Obey the 4th Commandment,“Honor thy father and mother", and then Bash Catholics for Calling a Priest Father or their own Father, Father???


Honor thy Father and Mother: This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.

Again, is it Blow against Catholic or does it just show that the many Protestants do not understand the true meaning behind Matthew 23:9?

To you who uses Matthew 23:9 to bash Catholics, do you "Honor your Father and Mother"??? If, you say you Do "honor your Father and Mother", then please do not use Matthew 23:9 against Catholics, because you will contradicting yourself. Amen
I'm fairly certain it's talking about the relationship between a disciple and a teacher/pastor/priest. It's unhealthy to put another person on a pedestal as if every word he speaks extends from God. That can happen in just about any church.

In a practical sense if a priest insisted that I call him as a Father in his house, I would have to insist he needs to extent the similar formality towards me as a Master of mine. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
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