Matthew 11:1-11

[mindlight]

I have a sermon coming up on this passage and was hoping for some feedback for thoughts thus far

1) JOHNS EXPECTATIONS: Johns in prison so maybe he is not getting proper information or it is being distorted through hostile interpreters but he does still seem to able to get messages in and out so it looks like he is getting visitors and some news. But from what he had heard it seems he has a doubt about Jesus being the Messiah. His previous pronouncements were on the lines of

"11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

So is John expecting a different kind of Messiah who is a bit more fiery and judgmental and who will hold a corrupt world order to account?

2) JESUS ANSWER: Jesus replies with a positive description of signs and wonders that have blessed the weakest in society rather than overthrown the strongest. The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are healed, the uneducated and ignorant now know the truth. He urges perseverance.

So was John just plain wrong in his expectations about a Judgmental Messiah and Jesus worried that he could ask the question that he did. In which case what kind of prophet was he. He knew the Messiah was coming and predicted that but despite recognizing him before his baptism now had doubts as a result of his actual deeds.

3) JOHNS STATUS: Jesus describes John as a Prophet indeed the greatest of all those born of women. A man in the wilderness away from pomp and ceremony and fine things. But then he suggests that anyone in his Kingdom will be greater than John

What did he mean by that: John must have been saved, are his actions and the spirit of his words so out of tune with those of Jesus that Jesus places him outside the kingdom?!


After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.
2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3 to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”
4 Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”
7 As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. 9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written:
“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’
11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahushua(Jesus) was not worried at all.

On earth, temporary existence,
of anyone (even the "best" in God's Words),

cannot compare one iota to eternally in heaven,

no, not one little bit comparison.

 

[Dave L]

I have a sermon coming up on this passage and was hoping for some feedback for thoughts thus far

1) JOHNS EXPECTATIONS: Johns in prison so maybe he is not getting proper information or it is being distorted through hostile interpreters but he does still seem to able to get messages in and out so it looks like he is getting visitors and some news. But from what he had heard it seems he has a doubt about Jesus being the Messiah. His previous pronouncements were on the lines of

"11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

So is John expecting a different kind of Messiah who is a bit more fiery and judgmental and who will hold a corrupt world order to account?

2) JESUS ANSWER: Jesus replies with a positive description of signs and wonders that have blessed the weakest in society rather than overthrown the strongest. The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are healed, the uneducated and ignorant now know the truth. He urges perseverance.

So was John just plain wrong in his expectations about a Judgmental Messiah and Jesus worried that he could ask the question that he did. In which case what kind of prophet was he. He knew the Messiah was coming and predicted that but despite recognizing him before his baptism now had doubts as a result of his actual deeds.

3) JOHNS STATUS: Jesus describes John as a Prophet indeed the greatest of all those born of women. A man in the wilderness away from pomp and ceremony and fine things. But then he suggests that anyone in his Kingdom will be greater than John

What did he mean by that: John must have been saved, are his actions and the spirit of his words so out of tune with those of Jesus that Jesus places him outside the kingdom?!


After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.
2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3 to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”
4 Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5 The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 6 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”
7 As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. 9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written:
“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’
11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

All but Jesus were blind to the spiritual nature of the kingdom until much later. They were saved but had been indoctrinated by standard Jewish fare. Even the prophets longed to see what unfolded in the NT. They knew in part through a glass darkly, but the born again now see face to face.

 

[mindlight]

All but Jesus were blind to the spiritual nature of the kingdom until much later. They were saved but had been indoctrinated by standard Jewish fare. Even the prophets longed to see what unfolded in the NT. They knew in part through a glass darkly, but the born again now see face to face.

So you see his words and his description of John to the crowds as a sort of movement from Johns gospel of repentance to the positive message of the Kingdom , the character of which , his words and deeds had been demonstrating.

But John was hardly indoctrinated by Saducees, Herodians, Pharisees or Romans. He was a man in the desert who lived only for God. MOre like an Essene in rebellion from standard Jewish understandings than a man of his time.

It is clear he did not grasp the positive message of the Kingdom so Jesus had to spell that out for him. But both his approach to talking about God and that of Jesus would get both of them killed in the end.

But yes Jesus is the full revelation of God and we must interpret the old and even the Baptist by that revelation rather than the other way around. John , despite his strength, discipline, courage and faith still had much to learn from Jesus.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is clear he did not grasp the positive message of the Kingdom so Jesus had to spell that out for him. But both his approach to talking about God and that of Jesus would get both of them killed in the end.

He grasped and understood more about Yahuweh's Kingdom than anyone we know today.

 

[mindlight]

Yahushua(Jesus) was not worried at all.

On earth, temporary existence,
of anyone (even the "best" in God's Words),

cannot compare one iota to eternally in heaven,

no, not one little bit comparison.

Worry was perhaps the wrong word, but there is a silent rebuke for John in these words and Jesus is clearly steering people away from the Judgmental message he had for the powerful and towards the better focus of the positive Kingdom. Was he just referring to eternity when he was already demonstrating what eternity looked like in restoring the blind, the lame , the ignorant etc

 

[Dave L]

So you see his words and his description of John to the crowds as a sort of movement from Johns gospel of repentance to the positive message of the Kingdom , the character of which , his words and deeds had been demonstrating.

But John was hardly indoctrinated by Saducees, Herodians, Pharisees or Romans. He was a man in the desert who lived only for God. MOre like an Essene in rebellion from standard Jewish understandings than a man of his time.

It is clear he did not grasp the positive message of the Kingdom so Jesus had to spell that out for him. But both his approach to talking about God and that of Jesus would get both of them killed in the end.

But yes Jesus is the full revelation of God and we must interpret the old and even the Baptist by that revelation rather than the other way around. John , despite his strength, discipline, courage and faith still had much to learn from Jesus.

John, the last OT prophet didn't know he was Elijah.

 

[mindlight]

He grasped and understood more about Yahuweh's Kingdom than anyone we know today.

Is that true, not sure, we stand in the tradition of the apostles who clearly came to grasp much more than John did

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Worry was perhaps the wrong word, but there is a silent rebuke for John in these words and Jesus is clearly steering people away from the Judgmental message he had for the powerful and towards the better focus of the positive Kingdom. Was he just referring to eternity when he was already demonstrating what eternity looked like in restoring the blind, the lame , the ignorant etc

I don't think Yahushua rebuked Yochanan the immerser at all, nor did Yahuweh. There was clarity and truth and edification for us in those words, and rebuke for people today who dis God's Word, but for Yochanan the greatest prophet, no, no rebuke.
Jesus AGREES WITH Yochanan - as Yochanan delivered Yahuweh's Message, righteous correct judgment and all.

 

[mindlight]

John, the last OT prophet didn't know he was Elijah.

Elijah was the first and greatest of the prophets in the story to this point. It was he on the Mount of TRansfiguration not John. But here Jesus describes John as the greatest of the prophets. They are 2 different people so I think that is a reference to the spirit in which he spoke. The spirit of the prophets.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John, the last OT prophet didn't know he was Elijah.

He wasn't.
"Spirit of Elijah" is much different, and correct, than being Elijah.

 

[Dave L]

Elijah was the first and greatest of the prophets in the story to this point. It was he on the Mount of TRansfiguration not John. But here Jesus describes John as the greatest of the prophets. They are 2 different people so I think that is a reference to the spirit in which he spoke. The spirit of the prophets.

Last of the Old Covenant prophets.

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.” Matthew 11:12–13 (KJV 1900)

 

[mindlight]

Last of the Old Covenant prophets.

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.” Matthew 11:12–13 (KJV 1900)

What about the two witnesses who will stand in Jerusalem in the last days. They have a power that matches and indeed exceeds that of Elijah, Elisha and Moses combined. But they speak a fuller revelation of the Kingdom as it breaks upon an angry world. Is John the harbinger of these prophets yet to come or the last of a breed that did not really grasp who Jesus was.

 

[Dave L]

What about the two witnesses who will stand in Jerusalem in the last days. They have a power that matches and indeed exceeds that of Elijah, Elisha and Moses combined. But they speak a fuller revelation of the Kingdom as it breaks upon an angry world. Is John the harbinger of these prophets yet to come or the last of a breed that did not really grasp who Jesus was.

I believe the two witnesses are symbols for the Church for many reasons.

One, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are the two olive trees of Zechariah 4, "the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech. 4:14). The woes of judgment that fall on the harlot Babylon (Rev. 1 8) echo those that fell on Israel's ancient oppressors, Tyre (Ezek. 27) and Babylon Oer. 51; Isa. 48).

Dennis E. Johnson. Triumph of the Lamb: A Commentary on Revelation (Kindle Locations 183-185). Kindle Edition.

 

[mindlight]

I believe the two witnesses are symbols for the Church for many reasons.

One, the two witnesses of Revelation 11 are the two olive trees of Zechariah 4, "the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech. 4:14). The woes of judgment that fall on the harlot Babylon (Rev. 1 8) echo those that fell on Israel's ancient oppressors, Tyre (Ezek. 27) and Babylon Oer. 51; Isa. 48).

Dennis E. Johnson. Triumph of the Lamb: A Commentary on Revelation (Kindle Locations 183-185). Kindle Edition.

The text itself speaks of real people and that is the straight forward interpretation. In the last days there will be prophets who will disturb, anger and trouble on a global level the nations of the world as these prophets present the contrast between the world of their time and the Kingdom of God.

 

[Dave L]

The text itself speaks of real people and that is the straight forward interpretation. In the last days there will be prophets who will disturb, anger and trouble on a global level the nations of the world as these prophets present the contrast between the world of their time and the Kingdom of God.

You are looking for the symbol instead of what it represents. You will never see it happen so long as you continue in this path.

 

[mindlight]

You are looking for the symbol instead of what it represents. You will never see it happen so long as you continue in this path.

The Bible pattern is that God speaks through history , through real historical people and events. The idea of symbols is an intellectual Greek thing. The language of Revelation connects literal historical realities to Gods grand purposes and to the unseen worlds.