Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

[nolidad]

In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

-A. C. Thomas-

I did not read all the replies, but many of yoru questions are based on false premises!

1. No- Punishment is the just wages for violating righteousness.

2. No! If that is the case- why strive and labor for holiness if God will just free everyone! No perfect justice requires a perfect reward and a perfect punishment! Otherwise it is imperfect. BTW that is a law for man and god does bless the evil in the hopes they will turn.

3. No it is the result of rejecting righteousness! God gets to establish th erules and He said it was decided for a person to die and then comes their judgment!

4. God so loved the World! But He knows who are HIs! Jesus paid for everyones sins.

5. No!

6. John 3:36

7. If He chooses to!

8. If that is what He opted to do. But He chose not that and He is still just!

9. God chooses to pardon those whom He will! Romans 9:13-23

10 It can't! The guilty are not ones who sin- but those who reject Christ!

12. Gods Mercy will come to an end- and after justice and holiness!

13. Mercy is a gift not a requisite. Justice is justice. Mercy is an overriding of justice.

14. That is an arbitrary question based on finite human judgments of both cruelty and injustice. God is not unjust. But is eternal torment cruel? Yes it is! God has opted to have the gospel to have all who would avoid this earned cruel punishment!

15. No for only a perfect being can give true mercy. all others mercy is corrupt in some measure.

 

[Oldmantook]

Not sure what Philippians 2:10 has got to do with Universalism. Whether everyone bows and or does not bow does not support the idea of either Universalism, Conditional Immortality, or Eternal Conscious Torment. Philippians 2:10 sounds like a separate event to me at the Judgment. Every knee will bow at the Judgment. What happens after the Judgment is another matter.

So what does "every knee bow at the name of Jesus" mean to you? Do the unsaved ever bow their knees to Jesus? Where exactly does it say every knee will bow at the judgment? You must provide scriptures to support your view. The verse I quoted unequivocally states that those in heaven will bow their knee/confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord = saved souls. Those on earth - will bow their knee/confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord = saved souls. Those under the earth - will bow their knee/confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord = saved souls. This is universal in scope and application.
For it has been written: "I live, says the Lord, that every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will confess to God." Rom 14:11
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:9

 

[FineLinen]

As one called of God to do that very thing, I need but one thing...your bones before me. And I agree with your joy, the spirit of MK imparts a gentle aroma of spirit this ‘wounded warrior’ also is lifted by.

Brother your ears do listen to the words of your mouth... be they declaring “life/death” “blessing or curse”. Indeed my declaration to “seek immortality” received a boost at my annual physical yesterday...when I was pronounced “boring”. Because “your temp is 97.7, your BP is 128/78 and pulse 58. You take no Rx drugs at all. And for being just over 70 you look 60 at the most.”

So brother I again am making declaring for my eyes to keep looking for the ‘uppertaker’ and not the perishing that accompanies the ‘undertaker’.

Perfection is yet attainable....I believe....Lord help my unbelief.

Dear Hillsage: That is wonderful news! You continue to be dear to me. Your generous gift some moons ago will never be forgotten. Your faithful following of the Lamb in the withersoever is what separates the children of God, from the sons of the Living One, drawing us to a vast expanse in Abba.

Seldom am I ever wrong (LOL), but Steve is becoming a witness of our Father's great glory.

These are powerful days of darkness on planet earth, however>>>

When darkness covers the earth & gross darkness the people....???

 

[FineLinen]

I did not read all the replies, but many of yoru questions are based on false premises!

1. No- Punishment is the just wages for violating righteousness.

2. No! If that is the case- why strive and labor for holiness if God will just free everyone! No perfect justice requires a perfect reward and a perfect punishment! Otherwise it is imperfect. BTW that is a law for man and god does bless the evil in the hopes they will turn.

3. No it is the result of rejecting righteousness! God gets to establish th erules and He said it was decided for a person to die and then comes their judgment!

4. God so loved the World! But He knows who are HIs! Jesus paid for everyones sins.

5. No!

6. John 3:36

7. If He chooses to!

8. If that is what He opted to do. But He chose not that and He is still just!

9. God chooses to pardon those whom He will! Romans 9:13-23

10 It can't! The guilty are not ones who sin- but those who reject Christ!

12. Gods Mercy will come to an end- and after justice and holiness!

13. Mercy is a gift not a requisite. Justice is justice. Mercy is an overriding of justice.

14. That is an arbitrary question based on finite human judgments of both cruelty and injustice. God is not unjust. But is eternal torment cruel? Yes it is! God has opted to have the gospel to have all who would avoid this earned cruel punishment!

15. No for only a perfect being can give true mercy. all others mercy is corrupt in some measure.

Dear Nolidad: Thank for your attempt at response to the questions.

Please read the replies, (all of them) and it will save an old rascal some effort.

One additional question for you>>>

What is the purpose for punishment by a caliber father of this earth? Does our Heavenly Father outshine any quality father?

 

[Kris Jordan]

In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

-A. C. Thomas-

Hi FineLinen,

I love a good quiz! My answers are below following your initial question asked.

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil? No. Eternal punishment is not an evil. It is a just and righteous sentence by God for the sin of those who reject Jesus (who is the only means available for forgiveness and salvation).

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21). Jesus overcame evil with good when He died on the cross for our sins in our place so that we wouldn't have to suffer eternally for them, if we would believe and trust Him for what He did for us.

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good? I'm not sure I understand what your really asking, so I will refrain from answering since I'm confused by the question.

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him? God does not hate sinners. He hates sin. Big difference. Regarding the sinner, He loves every single person and never wanted their sin to separate them from Him, which is why He sent His Only Son to die in our place for our sin, so that we would be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus. So for anyone to hate God, it is sinful because it stems from a wicked, sinful, unloving, ungrateful, unregenerate heart.

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17) No He is not. Malachi 3:6; Psalm 102:25-27; James 1:17

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? God loves everyone, enemies or not. But just like we as parents must discipline our children, it doesn't mean that our love for them ceases when we do. Likewise, God's love endures forever regardless of where someone spends eternity.

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful" in their present life? (Luke 6:35) If it were not for God's grace and His being "kind to the evil and unthankful," there would be no hope for any of us whatsoever. Saved or not, we are all wretched sinners before God in our flesh and never deserve His goodness, mercy and grace that He showers upon every single one of us every minute of every day. None of us are "good and thankful" 100% of the time, even as believers, so we need His mercy and grace continually.

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state? God's judgment is the "just" response to all sin because that is what our sin deserves. However, He sent Jesus to suffer our sin penalty and die in our place on the cross so that, if we place our faith in Him for what He did for us, we would never have to come under His condemnation or judgment but receive forgiveness and eternal life instead. However, there will be a day of reckoning when His judgment will be handed down and for those who refused His Son, they must pay their own sin penalty in the Lake of Fire eternally.

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly? Nobody is saved unjustly. It cost God everything in order to save mankind when He sent His own Son to this earth to do for us what we could never do for ourselves. Therefore it is the goodness and mercy and grace of God that saves us, but it was not cheap or unjust. The reality of our salvation is this: Because God’s holiness demands perfection, because His justice demands that sin be punished, and because His righteousness requires that justice and judgment be rendered, His great love for us sent Jesus to this earth to meet and satisfy all of those righteous requirements on our behalf, through His own sinless life and atoning death. This is the only thing that makes it possible for sinful man to be saved.

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7). Jesus Christ is the means. See answer to #9 above.

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38). I think you quoted the wrong scripture here for reference...?

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer? Those in hell/Lake of Fire are receiving their just and deserved punishment. That is why the bible says in Hebrews 3:15, "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,” and again in 2 Corinthians 6:2, "For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

13. Can that be just which is not merciful? God is loving, just, merciful, holy and righteous. However, the most commonly misunderstood aspect of the combined, unfathomable attributes of God is that they all operate concurrently and in perfect harmony together at all times. Many people attempt to separate God’s attributes, and embrace only those which suit their own desires or beliefs to the exclusion of the rest, thereby creating their own god rather than trusting the only true God for who He has revealed Himself to be. For example, when many people are confronted with the reality of sin and hell, they will often cite God’s loving nature as their defense against such things, as if His love would compel Him to overlook or accept sin. The problem with this skewed perception of God is that because He is holy, just and righteous, He cannot close his eyes to sin; otherwise, He would not remain holy, just and righteous. One attribute of God does not, nor can it, cancel out or supersede any other attribute; instead they must function together and in perfect harmony at all times.

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand? God is neither of those things.

15. Can that be merciful which is not just? See answer to #13 above.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I love a good quiz!

footnote:
realize that a good quiz would be an honest, truthful quiz, in Christ Jesus for the purpose of revealing truth.

False teachers and false gospels with a "quiz" to promote false hope and to prevent the truth from being sought for
do not a "good quiz" make.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Pertinent post by someone else a moment ago on another thread:

"Sin is insidious and the punishment is death. By dying, He paid the price to set us free. It is all laid out in the feasts, the step by step process and opening our eyes to sin, cleansing us from all unrighteousness. It is a process and we have to realize at what cost."

 

[Kris Jordan]

footnote:
realize that a good quiz would be an honest, truthful quiz, in Christ Jesus for the purpose of revealing truth.

False teachers and false gospels with a "quiz" to promote false hope and to prevent the truth from being sought for
do not a "good quiz" make.

To me, a good quiz is one where truth can be proclaimed in the answers.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To me, a good quiz is one where truth can be proclaimed in the answers.

Good. But in this case the questions are already slanted to have an evil , anti-Christ outcome, because of the source and the purpose.

We have provided answers as possible, to bring in the LIGHT, the TRUTH, yes. (and thanks be to God for you for doing so) ....

But it is also important to understand that the source of something determines its character - just as a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, but always produces bad fruit. So it is for false gospels - always producing bad fruit, going on and on without correction.... we aren't even supposed to have any fellowship with anyone who brings a false gospel.

 

[FineLinen]

Hi FineLinen,

I love a good quiz! My answers are below following your initial question asked.

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil? No. Eternal punishment is not an evil. It is a just and righteous sentence by God for the sin of those who reject Jesus (who is the only means available for forgiveness and salvation).

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21). Jesus overcame evil with good when He died on the cross for our sins in our place so that we wouldn't have to suffer eternally for them, if we would believe and trust Him for what He did for us.

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good? I'm not sure I understand what your really asking, so I will refrain from answering since I'm confused by the question.

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him? God does not hate sinners. He hates sin. Big difference. Regarding the sinner, He loves every single person and never wanted their sin to separate them from Him, which is why He sent His Only Son to die in our place for our sin, so that we would be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus. So for anyone to hate God, it is sinful because it stems from a wicked, sinful, unloving, ungrateful, unregenerate heart.

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17) No He is not. Malachi 3:6; Psalm 102:25-27; James 1:17

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? God loves everyone, enemies or not. But just like we as parents must discipline our children, it doesn't mean that our love for them ceases when we do. Likewise, God's love endures forever regardless of where someone spends eternity.

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful" in their present life? (Luke 6:35) If it were not for God's grace and His being "kind to the evil and unthankful," there would be no hope for any of us whatsoever. Saved or not, we are all wretched sinners before God in our flesh and never deserve His goodness, mercy and grace that He showers upon every single one of us every minute of every day. None of us are "good and thankful" 100% of the time, even as believers, so we need His mercy and grace continually.

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state? God's judgment is the "just" response to all sin because that is what our sin deserves. However, He sent Jesus to suffer our sin penalty and die in our place on the cross so that, if we place our faith in Him for what He did for us, we would never have to come under His condemnation or judgment but receive forgiveness and eternal life instead. However, there will be a day of reckoning when His judgment will be handed down and for those who refused His Son, they must pay their own sin penalty in the Lake of Fire eternally.

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly? Nobody is saved unjustly. It cost God everything in order to save mankind when He sent His own Son to this earth to do for us what we could never do for ourselves. Therefore it is the goodness and mercy and grace of God that saves us, but it was not cheap or unjust. The reality of our salvation is this: Because God’s holiness demands perfection, because His justice demands that sin be punished, and because His righteousness requires that justice and judgment be rendered, His great love for us sent Jesus to this earth to meet and satisfy all of those righteous requirements on our behalf, through His own sinless life and atoning death. This is the only thing that makes it possible for sinful man to be saved.

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7). Jesus Christ is the means. See answer to #9 above.

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38). I think you quoted the wrong scripture here for reference...?

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer? Those in hell/Lake of Fire are receiving their just and deserved punishment. That is why the bible says in Hebrews 3:15, "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,” and again in 2 Corinthians 6:2, "For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

13. Can that be just which is not merciful? God is loving, just, merciful, holy and righteous. However, the most commonly misunderstood aspect of the combined, unfathomable attributes of God is that they all operate concurrently and in perfect harmony together at all times. Many people attempt to separate God’s attributes, and embrace only those which suit their own desires or beliefs to the exclusion of the rest, thereby creating their own god rather than trusting the only true God for who He has revealed Himself to be. For example, when many people are confronted with the reality of sin and hell, they will often cite God’s loving nature as their defense against such things, as if His love would compel Him to overlook or accept sin. The problem with this skewed perception of God is that because He is holy, just and righteous, He cannot close his eyes to sin; otherwise, He would not remain holy, just and righteous. One attribute of God does not, nor can it, cancel out or supersede any other attribute; instead they must function together and in perfect harmony at all times.

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand? God is neither of those things.

15. Can that be merciful which is not just? See answer to #13 above.

Dear Kris: Thank you for taking the time to respond. For the moment I will respond to #1.

Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?"

No. Eternal punishment is not an evil. It is a just and righteous sentence by God for the sin of those who reject Jesus (who is the only means available for forgiveness and salvation).

My dear lady: in the first place it is not aidios punishment, but aionios. More importantly (perhaps), all punishment by Abba has an objective, it is NOT unending punishment with zero purpose of change and transformation, but leads in the end to radical change in those exercised thereby.

Are you a mother Kris? If so, you have only one purpose in punishment of your children, and only one. Our Heavenly Father, who is love incarnate and answers to Abba, dear Father, exceeds anything any of us are capable!

 

[Silverback]

In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

-A. C. Thomas-

This is my take on it

1. Humanity stands guilty before God at conception.

2. Humanity justly deserves God's wrath and punishment.

3. God is sovereign, and does not owe us an explanation, or a justification.

4. Humanity's knowledge, and ability to reason are clouded, by sin.

5. If God choses to do something, it is always right, just, fair, and in keeping with his nature.

6. His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts.

7. Everlasting punishment in hell is required by God's justice, and holiness.

8. A sentence to hell is our choice, so God is granting our wish, and desire.

9. God's word is very clear on the Issue, If you reject so great a salvation all that remains is judgement, and everlasting punishment.

But we have a wonderful, loving and gracious God, who sent his son to bare our sin, pay our debt, and we have only to have faith. God chose those he would bring to faith in his son before the foundation of the world. All are guilty and condemned before our gracious God. Some people receive mercy, others are passed by and receive justice. But, no one receives injustice.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

oh mush....... (70) Yahuweh without Justice and Righteousness would not be without sin.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Good. But in this case the questions are already slanted to have an evil , anti-Christ outcome, because of the source and the purpose.

We have provided answers as possible, to bring in the LIGHT, the TRUTH, yes. (and thanks be to God for you for doing so) ....

But it is also important to understand that the source of something determines its character - just as a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, but always produces bad fruit. So it is for false gospels - always producing bad fruit, going on and on without correction...we aren't even supposed to have any fellowship with anyone who brings a false gospel.

Respectfully, if someone posts something in question form that contains error or false "truths," I want to answer them according to the truth of the Scriptures. If someone makes a false statement or promotes false, anti-biblical doctrine, I want to confront it according to what the Bible says. I don't back away from someone just because they may believe false doctrine.

Not only that but if someone (anywhere on this forum) is going to publically "promote" something that is clearly false and potentially lead others astray, I am compelled to share the truth of the gospel with them in hopes of "rescuing someone from the fire," even if it's not the OP. If we remain silent, how will that help anyone?

I understand there may come a time when someone refuses to listen to the truth after it's presented, but until then, I say "go for it." After all, the Bible is full of scriptures that were written to refute false teaching and doctrine.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Dear Kris: Thank you for taking the time to respond. For the moment I will respond to #1.

Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?"

No. Eternal punishment is not an evil. It is a just and righteous sentence by God for the sin of those who reject Jesus (who is the only means available for forgiveness and salvation).

My dear lady: in the first place it is not aidios punishment, but aionios. More importantly (perhaps), all punishment by Abba has an objective, it is NOT unending punishment with zero purpose of change and transformation, but leads in the end to radical change in those exercised thereby.

Are you a mother Kris? If so, you have only one purpose in punishment of your children, and only one. Our Heavenly Father, who is love incarnate and answers to Abba, dear Father, exceeds anything any of us are capable!

Hell (Hades) has one purpose: To hold sinners until His final judgment is rendered while their punishment ensues.

God's eternal punishment for sinners in the Lake of Fire has one purpose: To punish their sin for eternity. There is no other opportunity for "change" since the opportunity for one's repentance and salvation ended when they died and entered eternity. (Scriptures available upon request).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Kris Jordan, post: 74187425, member: 419247"]Respectfully, if someone posts something in question form that contains error or false "truths," I want to answer them according to the truth of the Scriptures. If someone makes a false statement or promotes false, anti-biblical doctrine, I want to confront it according to what the Bible says. I don't back away from someone just because they may believe false doctrine.

Not only that but if someone (anywhere on this forum) is going to publically "promote" something that is clearly false and potentially lead others astray, I am compelled to share the truth of the gospel with them in hopes of "rescuing someone from the fire," even if it's not the OP. If we remain silent, how will that help anyone?

I understand there may come a time when someone refuses to listen to the truth after it's presented, but until then, I say "go for it." After all, the Bible is full of scriptures that were written to refute false teaching and doctrine. [/QUOTE

VERY GOOD ! YES !

That is why I responded at all - even though the false gospel has been being promoted for many years according to the op, and many have warned him with many Scriptures that he twists and rejects always. In many ways, in many threads, the false gospel is still promoted by that school he is in. They do not change (so far), and have indicated that they will not repent of the false gospel.

 

[FineLinen]

This is my take on it

1. Humanity stands guilty before God at conception.

2. Humanity justly deserves God's wrath and punishment.

3. God is sovereign, and does not owe us an explanation, or a justification.

4. Humanity's knowledge, and ability to reason are clouded, by sin.

5. If God choses to do something, it is always right, just, fair, and in keeping with his nature.

6. His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts.

7. Everlasting punishment in hell is required by God's justice, and holiness.

8. A sentence to hell is our choice, so God is granting our wish, and desire.

9. God's word is very clear on the Issue, If you reject so great a salvation all that remains is judgement, and everlasting punishment.

But we have a wonderful, loving and gracious God, who sent his son to bare our sin, pay our debt, and we have only to have faith. God chose those he would bring to faith in his son before the foundation of the world. All are guilty and condemned before our gracious God. Some people receive mercy, others are passed by and receive justice. But, no one receives injustice.

Dear Silverback: Thank you for your response. For the moment I will respond to #1 & #2.

Your response=

1. Humanity stands guilty before God at conception.

2. Humanity justly deserves God's wrath and punishment.

Mankind: the entire all of mankind does indeed stand guilty before God at conception. That came about by one man's sin. There was no choice by any of us to be a sinner, we are by being born! No Choice, NADA

An Equation=

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

 

[hedrick]

It's always a bit dangerous to use passages to answer questions they weren't originally intended to address. This passage talks about how people will be judged, not what punishment is going to be like.

The answer it gives may not be quite what you're used to. Based on the Jewish background and Matthew's wording elsewhere, many interpreters think the little ones are actually references to Christians. That is, this passage says that the "nations" will be judged based on how they treat Christians. Apparently this was the universal understanding until the 19th Cent, when the current understanding began to develop. Calvin speaks of the passage in general as commending charity, but when he does detailed exegesis, he sees the reference specifically to Christian brethren, and says that we should be more concerned about them than others.

The idea that we'll be judged on how we treat the helpless has good support in both the Prophets and Jesus' teaching, so I have no problem with a wider understanding. But it may well not be what Matthew was thinking of when he wrote this.

 

[JM]

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

You are equating human retaliation with just and legal punishment. Instead of, “I’m going to make you pay!” It’s more like, “If you do the crime you do the time.”

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

No, you may not safely assume God will do what you’d like. Our point of view is finite.

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

Yes, God is angry with the wicked every day (Psalm 7.11) and hates the violent one (Psalm 11.5). God’s anger is kindled against the evil doer and just like in the case of Eli’s house it shall not be cleasned with sacrifice or offering…forever. (Deut. 31.17)

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

God gave them up and made them unresponsive to the Gospel (Psalm 81.11-12) and even sent Isaiah to harden their hearts. (chp. 6) God owes us nothing. God closed the eye of those He will punish. (Isaiah 29.9-12)

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

Nope.

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

Let’s see the passage you allude to and we can discuss it.

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

Yes, it is just, are you suggesting God is not perfect?

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

Yes, it would be unjust. Sin deserves punishment.

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

The reason for Christ’s death on the cross was to atone for sin. He lived a perfect life in the place of God’s elect and died in their place as well. God seen it fit to lay our punishment on Him. It is just that we are saved by the blood of Christ.

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

Punishment for sin has not been evaded. “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt. 26.28)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

Sophistry.

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

Let’s keep this in the realm of theology, thinking about God, not man.

13. Can that be just which is not merciful? 14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand? 15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

You are making a judgement call on God, you are assuming God is unjust and appealing to the emotions of the reader. “Ah, shucks. It ain’t fair God punishes me for what I dun did!” Please.

Just to wrap up. Christians are told not to pray for the reprobate (Jer. 7.16), blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is never forgiven (Mark 3.29), the reason people do not believe and are saved is because they are not Christ’s sheep (John 10.26). We know the Son of Perdition was lost on purpose! (John 17.12) Paul clearly states that some vessels are fitted for destruction by God the potter (Romans 9.21-22) and the rest were blinded (Romans 11.7). As if that isn’t enough we read that God will send them strong delusion, causing the wicked to believe a lie and be damned (2 Thess 2.11). After all, if the Lord led Egypt astray (Isaiah 19.14), why wouldn’t he do that to others…both nations and individuals? At the end of the day God created the wicked for the day of evil (Prov 16.4).

Yours in the Lord,


jm

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Silverback: Than you for your response. For the moment I will respond to #1 & #2.

Your response=

1. Humanity stands guilty before God at conception.

2. Humanity justly deserves God's wrath and punishment.

Mankind: the entire all of mankind does indeed stand guilty before God at conception. That came about by one man's sin. There was no choice by any of us to be a sinner, we are by being born! No Choice, NADA

An Equation=

"For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

The entire equation is in the hands of our God!

Many "made sinners">>>>>many "made righteous."

Which brings us to your answer>>>>

"Humanity justly deserves God's wrath and punishment."

Can you see a problem?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

Dear friend.
You really should announce that you are a Universalist in your OP, and that you are attacking ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment).
Some folks are confused as to where you are coming from, and thus as a result, they are not able to answer some of your questions in light of your belief.

To help you to understand what I believe:

Well, I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality.

This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

Anyways, to answer your first question: Matthew 25:46 says it is "everlasting punishment" and not "everlasting punishing." In light of this verse: It is talking about how the punishment has everlasting consequences in how the wicked will be punished and the they will eventually be destroyed. But I know what your thinking. Your thinking God cannot render evil for evil because He tells us not to do this. But what God commands of us is different than what God does. God can judge evil by setting forth a fair and just punishment (Which by we know by rational standards is a punishment befitting of the crime). Fair justice demands it. Remember, in the OT, it said an eye for an eye? That is God's fair justice. But once God showed that aspect of Himself involving HIs people, the Lord wanted to show us a higher way that is beyond a person taking vengeance into their own hands. God now says vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord. How can the Lord really repay for anything bad that was done if He just lets that later rewards them to enter God's Kingdom?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

No. What God commands of us is different than what God does. But God did overcome evil with the good of Christ's death and resurrection. It is the gospel that shines forth salvation and light, and not Universalism.

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

Doesn't apply. God does not have to overcome evil with good always in every circumstance. In light of Matthew 25:46 (which talks about the annihilation of the wicked): God would be overcoming evil by ending it so that God's good people can live in harmony and peace without evil and sinful people in the universe anymore. This act is good to end evil because it is like ending a cancer or disease within a patient. People who reject God and His good ways will be ended like a disease. God is fair and just to do this because He owns the creation and He is restoring it back to its original good design.

Also, the table could be turned here, as well. What if there are wicked people who do not want to enter God's kingdom? What if they still hate God? Will God lobotomize them and force them to love Him? If that is the case, why didn't God just do that from the beginning and save us from having all this grief?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

Yes, in the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) view of God, God would be hating the sinner because He is not fairly punishing them. He would be punishing the wicked for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. ECT proponents really do not know how to explain the fair justice of God torturing the wicked alive in flames for all eternity. They just say it is God's judgment, and we cannot comprehend it, etc. But the Lord should be logical in a way that we can understand Him in regards to His good ways. In Dualistic Conditional Immortality, God is not hating the sinner and punishing them for all eternity. They will be destroyed or erased from existence. If the wicked hates God for doing this, they are in the error and not God because God gave them warnings to repent and change their lives. Their suffering will only be a temporary one, and it will be as if they never existed. Non-existence is not something that the wicked will be able to be aware of. Their will be no eternal torture in flames for the wicked.

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

While God can do new things (like with the Incarnation, etc.) God does not change in His good character. God's good ways do not change. His fair justice remains the same. We see in the Bible ample evidence of God destroying His enemies, and we see no real world examples of ECT (Where God keeps His enemies alive so as to torture them over the rest of their lives), and neither do we see any evidence of God showing us any form of Universalism in any of the Bible stories we read. For example: If Universalism was true, we would expect to see the wicked destroyed at Sodom and Gomorrah, and then they are later brought back to life so that God can bring them back as mindless love slaves whereby He rewards them.

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

Again, what God does and what He commands of us are two different things. God can and does love His enemies, but there are limits to it. For God is not willing that any should PERISH, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). So if the wicked do not repent, they will perish or be destroyed.

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

You see things here in light of Universalism in the fact that God will be kind to the wicked in the future (by letting them into God's kingdom). But this is not the case. It is just and kind of God to destroy (erase from existence) the wicked in the future because He is not forcing them to be something they are not, and He is executing fair justice (an eye for an eye), and He is providing an environment of peace where no wicked people will flourish anymore. God would have to lobotomize some of the wicked in order for them to enter God's kingdom. Also, the saints who labored for the cause of Christ will be as if their labor meant nothing. Their faith in God meant nothing. God saves all and having faith and in being faithful to the Lord does not really matter in the grand scope of eternity. Universalism does not present God as being kind because He would be forcing all the wicked to be good and to be in His Kingdom one day, and it would insult His people who had faith, and were faithful to Him. It would also destroy the concept of what fair justice is all about, as well. We could never rely upon God to truly punish evil and reward the good if evil were to get away with being rewarded at some later time.

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

See answer above.

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

Where does it say in the Bible that all men deserve endless punishment?
There are many men of God that the Lord favored.
God forgave their sins, and they became faithful to the Lord.
God knew this about them even before they were born.

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

Not sure how your question and this verse applies in your defense of Universalism. Please elaborate in more detail please of what you are talking about here.

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

Luke 4:38 says,
"And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her."

Not sure how this verse has anything to do with what you asked. But it is true, ECT is false, and there are only two or three places in Scripture that appear to teach it (at first glance). Most fail to understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

Surely ECT is false. It is not in the good character of God and His merciful to torture men alive for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. It's ridiculous.

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

There are limits to one being merciful. Surely if a father had a son like Hitler, and Hitler desired to destroy his own father, he could not really seek to change his son into something that he is not. He can love his son, but that does not mean he would want to have his son around and or that he would want to reward his son for the evil that he was doing. If the father lobotomized his son, and programmed him to be good, it would no longer be his son but something else that he desired for him to be.

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

Yes, I agree. This is why ECT fails. But it is not cruel to destroy the wicked because they were punished according to their crimes and then they are wiped out from existence. It is not cruel to put down a rabid dog if that dog can harm others and itself.

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

In ECT, and Universalism, God is not being just with the wicked.
In ECT God is punishing them away beyond what the crime calls for.
In Universalism, God is not just because He is not dealing fairly with the actions of what the wicked deserve and it insults God's people in their faith, and faithfulness.

As for mercy: Mercy plays in harmony with God's fair justice.
If not then there is no true mercy.

ECT is overkill;
And Universalism is sort of like forcing love upon people when they do not want your love. But we know true love is when both parties agree to love one another of their own free will.